doctor71 0 Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 I was looking at installing a Ace Pistol grip and folding stock, the kind where you do not need to relocate the trigger (Or FCG). In order to add a pistol grip I need to replace 3 foriegn parts with Us parts to get to the 10 part rule. I would assume the folding stock would count as 1 US part, but the grip would be an addition, correct? If my .410 has 13 total foreign parts, then I need to replace 2 more foreign parts to get to the 10 part "rule" and be compliant. First off, tell me if my assumptions are f'ed up, and secondly if my assumptions are correct, what other simple foreign parts can be easily replaced with readily available US parts on my .410? What about the Gas piston? if so where can I get one? I have gone over the threads a million times looking for more info, but most conversions relocate the trigger group and replace the parts with a US made parts, which allows getting to the 10 parts count rule easier. I'm just looking for other parts on the gun that can be replaced. I'm pretty new to the Saiga .410, just picked up my new RAAC model a few days ago. I have been wanting one of these for a couple of years and finally made the jump. Thanks for any help. Jon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 (edited) Welcome to the forum. Your assumptions on parts count are correct. Tony Rumore can make U.S. gas pistons (PM him) There's a link to his stuff in the tech section. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=7520&hl= Then you would just need a u.s. made handguard like the Tapco Galil with HG retainer. Midwest has the best prices on these... http://www.midwestarmory.com/page4.html Another option - BattleRifleG3 makes custom wood furniture... http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=9545 Good Luck! Edited February 20, 2006 by dinzag Quote Link to post Share on other sites
doctor71 0 Posted February 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Thank you for the info. That was exactly what I was looking for. But I do have one more question. That handgaurd from midwest will bolt on to a Saiga .410? Or do I have to fab some retainers to hold it place. I'm having a hard time trying to picture what it would exactly look like. I don't believe I have seen one of these styled HG on a .410. Does any out there have a picture of one installed? Thanks again. Welcome to the forum.Your assumptions on parts count are correct. Tony Rumore can make U.S. gas pistons (PM him) There's a link to his stuff in the tech section. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=7520&hl= Then you would just need a u.s. made handguard like the Tapco Galil with HG retainer. Midwest has the best prices on these... http://www.midwestarmory.com/page4.html Another option - BattleRifleG3 makes custom wood furniture... http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=9545 Good Luck! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 (edited) I haven't seen one, but that HG is designed for the Saiga Rifles. It comes with a retainer - you can see it on the front edge with a cross bolt/screw. FYI, the I.D. of the retainer may need to be opened up a tad with a dremel sanding drum, but not too much. I did this with standard AK furniture. No mods to the lower HG and just some quick dremel work to the bore of the AK handguard retainer and cross slot on top of the barrel. The TAPCO Galil handguard would be much less involved... edited to add: I found an S-12 with one...this one doesn't have the integrated HG retainer. Edited February 20, 2006 by dinzag Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 You may want to check with Tapco on that. I think those are made to fit S-12s and AKs. For the 410 you would want the AK one. If you replaced the stock and HG that's two parts. The PG cancels itself out. The piston would give you three[maybe] (we are still awaiting clarification from ATF about which part THEY actually consider to be the gas piston). You may still need one more part anyway because with the threaded muzzle on the 410 (total 14 parts) means you need one additional part. There has been much discussion on whether or not screw on chokes are considered "muzzle attachments" but I have yet to see any clarification on that subject either. These are a couple of reasons why most people just go ahead and replace the FCG too. If you don't want to go for the full conversion with cutting the PG nut hole and moving the TG you can still replace the FCG with a Tapco G-2 if you cut the trigger off of it and grind it flat on the bottom like the Saiga nuetered trigger. You might even get by with just replacing the hammer and disconnector. If you went this route you would have to drill out the flared part of the sleeve in the factory trigger and replace it. Once again, much easier to just replace the whole FCG. Aren't these laws stupid? On the bright side the G-2 is a very big improvement over the factory trigger. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 To estrapulate on Cobra's repugnancy and here-forth with utmost cloosidity... -sorry, there was an In Living Color marathon on over the weekend... Tapco has 2 models. One for AK and one for Saiga. Both are for the Rifles only. The Saiga one has a steel retainer at the front and is $20 more while the AK one utilizes the existing retainer found on a standard AK. Putting on a 20 gauge or 12 gauge will require material removal, while fitting on the 410 won't (probably). Depends on the exact I.D. of the retainer... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
doctor71 0 Posted February 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Cobra, I have to say I was intently reading your info and got to the end of your post and I was starting to day dream alittle about the laws and I was thinking, "The laws are fing stupid". then bam in your next sentance you said the same thing. I got a good early morning chuckle about it. For all the farting around, and cost, I'm thinking I should just sent my baby to Tony and have him give it a makover. You are right about the 14 parts if you take the screw on muzzle into consideration. I read that somewhere else, and was wondering about that. You may want to check with Tapco on that. I think those are made to fit S-12s and AKs. For the 410 you would want the AK one. If you replaced the stock and HG that's two parts. The PG cancels itself out. The piston would give you three[maybe] (we are still awaiting clarification from ATF about which part THEY actually consider to be the gas piston). You may still need one more part anyway because with the threaded muzzle on the 410 (total 14 parts) means you need one additional part. There has been much discussion on whether or not screw on chokes are considered "muzzle attachments" but I have yet to see any clarification on that subject either. These are a couple of reasons why most people just go ahead and replace the FCG too. If you don't want to go for the full conversion with cutting the PG nut hole and moving the TG you can still replace the FCG with a Tapco G-2 if you cut the trigger off of it and grind it flat on the bottom like the Saiga nuetered trigger. You might even get by with just replacing the hammer and disconnector. If you went this route you would have to drill out the flared part of the sleeve in the factory trigger and replace it. Once again, much easier to just replace the whole FCG. Aren't these laws stupid? On the bright side the G-2 is a very big improvement over the factory trigger. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 (edited) I'm foggy on the laws too - that said, I remember something about brakes and chokes were not considered on the "list" of parts. Bayonettes and FH's are considered to be parts. Until someone gets a ruling on the specific S-410's list of parts from the ATF, it will all be speculation... Edited February 20, 2006 by dinzag Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Hmmm oops! Well I've never seen one up close but I thought they made one for the 12. My bad. I think they are kind of fugly so I haven't really looked into it. One more thing to add though, if you replaced the handguard and the piston (whichever part it really is, you can get both made in the US) and the stock/PG, it would be easy to just lift the retaining wire and knock out the hammer axis pin and replace the Saiga hammer with a US made one. Even one of those cheap ass Century ones would work. All you would have to do is take a little off the right hand side of the hammer for the BHO if you have one and grind the front to miss the crossmember if necessary. I'm foggy on the laws too - that said, I remember something about brakes and chokes were not considered on the "list" of parts. Bayonettes and FH's are considered to be parts. Until someone gets a ruling on the specific S-410's list of parts from the ATF, it will all be speculation... We need the same info on the other shotties too. My S-12 has all that shit. I even replaced the "gas piston" with a custom made US one only to find out later that what I really replaced was the "bolt carrier extension". Yes these laws are Fking rediculous. I guess it's still better than it has been for the last ten years though. Just CYA and be OK! Oh yeah and if you live anywhere close to NC you could always come by and let me help you transform your baby! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 All Saiga shotguns 13 parts. The BATFE letter is on the site somewhere, and did not make a calliber distinction for shotguns. It just said SAiga shotguns. G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Did anyone get a ruling from BTAF at the SHOT Show on which part was considered by them to be the piston? I know someone had requested clearification on a thread in the Saiga 12 area, but I'm not sure if anyone asked ATF after the short barrel nightmare came up? Just wondering......... Thank's for clearing things up on your post dinzag, I thought you'd either lost your F'ing mind or had somehow become part of a president Bush mind control experiment with all that jiberish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 --> QUOTE(G O B @ Feb 20 2006, 06:47 PM) All Saiga shotguns 13 parts. The BATFE letter is on the site somewhere, and did not make a calliber distinction for shotguns. It just said SAiga shotguns. G O B Found the letter--- http://www.soupbowl.kalashnikov.guns.ru/page12.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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