conversion?

[remo 0]

Could a 410 saiga be converted to a rifle to shoot 444 marlin? What type of paper work would be needed?

 

Thing that I know would have to be done if the saiga would work.

1. a 16.5 inch rifle barrel

2. mod. the mags to feed

3. the bolt face

 

If it can be done it would make a great brush gun!

[Sheik Yerbouti 0]

You should probably worry about gas pressure, too. I would think that the 444 would put out a good deal more than a 410.

 

The Sheik

[BattleRifleG3 16]

The 444 will absolutely have more pressure than a 410. I calculated the bolt force due to chamber pressure to be slightly lower on the 444 Marlin than the 7.62x39mm. So the big question is whether the 410 bolt is built as strong as the 7.62x39mm? Visual inspection suggests so, but I don't own one, and my only reason for buying one would be to do this conversion.

[Bvamp 604]

what about the gas pressure that serves the action? not just the barreled action, but the gas tube pressure that sends the nice bolt back? that would be a LOT higher i would think.........guess you could weld a hole up onthe gas port to solve that, maybe...

[G O B 3,516]

Does this cartrige have the same same dimensions in the rim? I understand that the .45 long colt works in a .410 (NON CHOKED) because the rims are almost identical. In rimmed cartriges it is the rim that is chambered.(The forward part that supports the case, the bolt face being the rear) Let us know how it goes,the idea of a pistol callibered SAIGA appeals to my "intellectual curiosity!".

 

G O B

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Bvamp... Um, a new barrel means a new gas port size. No welding necessary, just drill the hole only as big as necessary.

 

444 Marlin has the same rim diameter as 44 Rem Mag, 45 Colt, and thus 410 shotgun.

 

But the 444 Marlin is NOT a pistol caliber. It's a big bore big game levergun hunting caliber. A semi-auto big bore is something I think is a great yet highly ignored possibility in gun design, with the exception of the 50 Beowulf and 458 SOCOM Monster.

[IndyArms 10,186]

It sounds to me that anyone willing to TRY to shoot .444 marlin out of ANY .410 gauge shotgun is just looking to have some SERIOUS pressure issues.. That, and probably one less .410 shotgun... I would tie it to a TREE... and tie a VERY long string to the trigger... and hide behind something SUBSTANTIAL... you might even get lucky enough to have your barrel look like one of them straight out of looney tunes.

 

But hey... let us ALL know how it goes.. We are doing this, after all, in the interest of SCIENCE!

[BattleRifleG3 16]

I love how people miss important details.

 

1. NEW FRIGGING BARREL. No banana peel burst issues here. The issue is bolt and trunion lockup.

2. The bolt appears to be the same strength as 7.62x39mm bolts. If it is, that is greatly overdesigned for the 410 (chooses interchangeability and ease in manufacturing over light weight) and properly designed for the 444 Marlin.

[G O B 3,516]

BattlerifleG3--That still sounds interesting. I want a saiga in 30-06. EAA says hopefully soon. There is definitly a need for an affordable reliable semi-auto rifle in

a heavier calibre. I want mine in 30-06 for ammo availibility and synergy with my O3-A3. Keep us posted!

 

G O B

 

(PS my ex father-inlaw used an old marlin lever in.32 win. special-best damn all around white tail gun I ever saw!)

Edited July 21, 2004 by G O B

[BattleRifleG3 16]

I actually have an idea to convert a Saiga 308 to 30-06, basically using the space gained by my G3 mag conversion on mags like the original Saiga 308. After the ban sunset, drastically modified BAR mags may be an option.

But my 308 conversion to Hi-cap would have to go well first.

[BattleRifleG3 16]

I actually have an idea to convert a Saiga 308 to 30-06, basically using the space gained by my G3 mag conversion on mags like the original Saiga 308. After the ban sunset, drastically modified BAR mags may be an option.

But my 308 conversion to Hi-cap would have to go well first, as well as my 444 conversion should the specs check out, if not then I'm doing a WASR-10 low cap to 35 Remington. I'd want to make the mag length extension and rebarreling work before doing both at once.

[cajun 0]

The 45-70 factory loads that run around 25,000 may be a better choice. You have a 2 lug bolt on the 410 Saiga don't you? Mine is an older one, and has a 2 lug bolt.

 

Your pressures get higher with the .444 Marlin, and the saftety of the 3 lug .308 Bolt/Trunnion may be a better route to go. You would have to open the face of the bolt, and re-work the extractor, plus headspace with go, no go gauges.

 

As for the Magazine, go with a No.4 Enfield, as plenty of these have been rebarreled to both 444 Marlin & 45-70 cartridges. If you want more cartridge capacity, just get 2 No. 4 mags, section one mag, removing the feed lips on top, and squaring off the bottom. On the other mag, cut square just below the magazine catch, then add the section from the other magazine. Mig or Tig weld, then grind and finish the welds both inside and outside the magazine body.

Fabricate and button weld your front and rear mag catches. Rivet the mag springs together with steel pop rivets. Gives you plenty of spring tension.

 

As for your cycling gas pressures, there are a lot of factors. Your barrel diameter, length to gas hole, etc. that must be figured out, or drilled with a small hole, and slowly increased in size until you reach a point that works well. You can also bleed off too much gas by drilling a hole in the gas tube cap, and determining the correct size by starting small & working up in size, until you reach the right point.

 

Your ejector will have to be shortened to match the rim of the cartridge. No big deal, just shave it with a file, until it works correctly.

 

This would be one hell of a Hog Rifle.

 

_____________________

PEOPLE INTERESTED IN PISTOL CALIBERS

 

For most Pistol calibers a direct blow back can be used. This is just a matter of removing the lugs from the AK bolt head. 9mm would use an X39 bolt head. .45ACP or .45 Win. Mag would need to have the bolt face opened up, and the extractor re-worked. The gas system of the Saiga can be stripped off the rifle. The new barrel doesn't need to be tapped for gas. Headspace new barrel with go, no go gauges. I would headspace with the locking lugs still on the bolt head, then remove the locking lugs after the headspace was correct. You will more than likely need a stronger spring, as the weight of the Bolt & the spring poundage are the two main factors in direct blowback guns.

 

As for mags Sten Gun & Thompson or Grease Gun Mags would give you the desired capacity. I'd personally use a 5 rd. X39 mag, gutted with the feed lips removed, and the bottom cut off at the bottom of the receiver. Then work with this as an adaptor to accept unmodified or slightly modified Stens, Thompsons, or Grease Guns. One could also construct a reverse Duck Bill Sten, Thompson, Grease Gun magazine, adding a catch to the front of the magazine, then using flat stock with some creative bends to catch the rear mag catch on the receiver. Just make sure you eliminate side to side slop.

 

I've considered pistol cartridges like the 50AE or 44-06 Wildcat, and IMO a slightly delayed blowback could possibly be used. Instead of a complete lock up of the locking lugs, have a minimal lock up that breaks off the angle in the trunnion much faster, or maybe a better idea for experimentation would be putting a 45 degree cut on the locking lugs of the bolt for 75% of it's length. If that's too much, a bolt head isn't that expensive, and if it's not enough just 45 it a little further. I haven't tried either of these methods before, so caution should be used when firing a high pressure cartridges. Some detail on the 50AE Desert Eagle would prove very helpful.

 

As for Mags for these Big Boys, the .30 M-1 Carbine mags will work for single stack feed. I think you can get 8 rds. in a 15 rounder, and don't know about the 30 rd. mag.

 

I like people who are free thinkers, and are into firearms modifications. Good luck with your projects, Cajun

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Super ideas here. I've thought of pistol caliber mods myself, but wouldn't use a Saiga for that since the mods are so drastic, but just build an AKM from a kit. I'd sure like to develop a milled aluminum receiver for a stamped parts kit. I may well do that for my 35 Remington project (which will happen when i have money).

 

Enfield mags sound like a great idea, but wouldn't the factory mag work best feeding rounds of that shape? the 444 seems very similar to the 410 in dimensions.

 

The whole idea of converting a 410 to 444 Marlin assumes that the bolt is overdesigned for the 410, and is really strong enough for the 7.62x39mm. I would have to measure both bolts to compare. If you have a 410 Saiga and a standard caliber AKM, I would greatly appreciate it if you measured the lugs on the bolt and trunion to see if they were the same size.

 

My goal actually isn't a hog gun, but a bear gun. Some have said that 444 Marlin isn't enough for the biggest on this continent, in which case I'd use something with the equivalent power to a hot 45-70 or a 450 Marlin. If I ever have the cash, I may sink it for an AR-10 converted to 450 Matlin my Accuracy Systems Inc. I've considered trying to wildcat a 45-284 for use in 308 chambered semi-autos. I wouldn't use the Saiga 308 for power-ups. The three lug system really seems like a farce, as the third lug is off to the side and doesn't look like it would carry any force. I wouldn't cut it off though, but neither would I make the S-308 take something heavier, like 300 WSM. VEPR is another matter...

 

I'd like to see the 45 Win Mag used more, but doubt straight blowback in an AK is the way to go. I have a feeling it would need a gas system. AR-15 may be a different story, and maybe with a weightened bolt carrier, a 45 ACP upper could be converted without too much trouble.