Freightman 0 Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 The man next to me had a custom rifle he was zeroing in, I was zeroing my Saiga conversion 22" with a Russian 8x56 scope. He finally got it zeroed after about 20 rds at 100 yds I got the 308 in 2 rds he was happy with his 2-3" groups I also was happy with my 1.5" groups. He said " cant shoot to fast the barrel heats up" I just shook my head and fired another 10 rds same group. He kept saying how important a cool barrel was for his tight groups. He was using handloads with balistic tip ammo some 30 cal Akeley improved, I was shooting 7.62x51 nato surplus. The 308/7.62x51 Saiga is a bargin his barrel cost almost twice what my whole gun cost. If you do not have a 308 you may be missing a jewel in the rough, I always take one of mine to the range when I go. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
O.S.O.K. 0 Posted June 24, 2006 Report Share Posted June 24, 2006 He was happy with 2-3" groups from a "custom gun"? Not to be contrary. I agree that many so-called "custom" rifles are a huge waste of money. I have a Stevens M200 that shoots 5/8" groups with Barnes triple shocks and even better with Hornady spire points (first couple handloads that I tried!) - is a .270 Win and all that I did (for accuracy) was install a rifle basix trigger. Have a total of $480 in it (scope, mount, trigger included). It is also 6.5 lb.s before the scope (a Nikon 3x9). I would expect a true custom rifle to at least shoot under an inch at 100 yards - especially with taylored handloads... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PanchoVilla 0 Posted June 24, 2006 Report Share Posted June 24, 2006 the limiting factor is always the shooter... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Freightman 0 Posted June 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2006 The shooter is the final factor, you say you have a Stevens 200 I have been seriousllly looking to get one as I can get it at wholesale and I read the reviews they were all verygood. I want a p'dog gun what caliber would you recomend? 223.22-250 or 8-06 for the little darlings? I was having a great day yesterday at the range, went with the idea of not rushing anything, took twosandwiches some cokes and coffee I was shooting exceptionally well because I didn't rush. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted June 24, 2006 Report Share Posted June 24, 2006 I will also chime in... The shooter is NOT ALWAYS the deciding factor, especially when RELOADS are being used... Quite often, a reloader will make up 3 to 5 different loads... to test them out... many of which are going to NOT PERFORM to an acceptable level. I have shot reloads out of my AR15... one set shot 2"+ groups... the others I was able to cover three holes with a pencil eraser... The shooter has a lot to do with it... but when reloads are included in the equation... dont count them out also... or even a combination of both... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Unknown Poster 5 Posted June 25, 2006 Report Share Posted June 25, 2006 (edited) Finding a rifle that has good accuracy isn't always a given even with custom built rifles and no matter how much we spend it can still fall short of what were looking for. The Saiga's seem to come with the accuracy already built into them. Having 1 1/2" groups at 100yds with south african 308 ball ammo seems to be the norm. The People at Izhmash in Russia are doing one hell of a job building the saiga line and in a short time they will be a force to reckon with and by them setting an affordable price on such a quality, reliable and dependable product they will be a leader soon and they will stay ahead for many years to come unchallanged by any other manufacturers. I have a gut feeling the saiga's will be even have a bigger following than the sks's do too. Its a fact its the hottest thing since the sks to hit our shores. Its all about what kind of accuracy your happy with too. Reloads can be like walking in the dark, its trail and error till we get it right. We pick the powder, we pick the bullet weight and they the fun starts looking for perfection. Once i pick a bullet and select the powder I will load up a few to see how they do. If its shooting larger groups than i wanted i may adjust the powder charge by dropping it back a little to see if the accuracy gets better. Most of the time it does get tighter groups. I never seen great accuracy with near max loads, we must dial it in by adjusting the powder charge. Its not that easy either sometimes we must use the correct burn rate powder for the rifle twist we have too. So everything has to be right in order for it to be accurate. You just have to hang in there and not give up too, till you figure it out. Edited June 25, 2006 by Unknown Poster Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Freightman 0 Posted June 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2006 I have two Saiga's in 308 one 16" on it I have the regular POSP scope and the regular sports stock, it seems a little off for some reason, but the 22" I have a lower mount with a 8x56 VOMZ scope on it but it has a ATI stock with a cheek piece and it seems a lot more comfortable. I am going to convert the other but need to build up funds first as I want Battlerifle's custom wood stock on it to make it very cool. I think that the Saiga is the best thing I have bought in a long time am planing a 223 as I need a AK in that cal. I have three AK's in 7.62x39 so I do not see a Saiga there. The shop I work at has a 410 I can probley get for $150 just have to make up my mind I want or need it. Most people who come to the shop are snobs and turn up there nose at it as Commie junk will buy when the owner gets tired of it and runs a sale which he mentioned the other day. It is new. I would like to have a Saiga in 7.62X54r though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DaGroaner 2 Posted June 25, 2006 Report Share Posted June 25, 2006 the limiting factor is always the shooter... Yup, I took my Rossi Coachgun to the trap range one time and some snobby prick with a Perazzi was giving me a hard time for even owning a POS like that let alone taking it out in public. I hit 23/25 to his 18/25. Needless to say I let him know what I thought of his $5,000 POS. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PanchoVilla 0 Posted June 26, 2006 Report Share Posted June 26, 2006 (edited) I will also chime in... The shooter is NOT ALWAYS the deciding factor, especially when RELOADS are being used... Quite often, a reloader will make up 3 to 5 different loads... to test them out... many of which are going to NOT PERFORM to an acceptable level. I have shot reloads out of my AR15... one set shot 2"+ groups... the others I was able to cover three holes with a pencil eraser... The shooter has a lot to do with it... but when reloads are included in the equation... dont count them out also... or even a combination of both... I said that the shooter is always "the limiting factor." You'll never shoot quite as accurately as the gun your holding is capable of; the gun is always a touch more accurate in a vice. However, it certainly won't hurt if you get a more accurate rifle. Then you can push it closer and closer to that optimal 0" group that the perfect rifle would have. Assuming, that is, you have the skills to do so. Edited June 26, 2006 by PanchoVilla Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rusty-1 0 Posted June 26, 2006 Report Share Posted June 26, 2006 Indy speaks the truth. If he's shooting a real custom rifle, then his ammo is handloads and he's probably testing various loads to see which works best. I spent several weeks working up loads for the 25-06 until I found one I and my rifle liked. Now I'm shooting minute of dime at 200 yards (and cloverleafing / 2 bullets per hole when I don't screw up) from the bench and minute of deer head at the same distance off hand. And what the old guy was saying is correct. Shoot a rifle too fast, the barrel will heat up and you'll start getting vertical stringing of your shots. Couple of ways to address this: Either use a bull/fluted barrel, or take time between your shots. The reason you didn't see it with your saiga probably has something to do with how the Russians built their barrels. If the shotguns are any indication, they're probably a chrome moly beast built 2 popular calibers too thick. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
O.S.O.K. 0 Posted June 26, 2006 Report Share Posted June 26, 2006 The shooter is the final factor, you say you have a Stevens 200 I have been seriousllly looking to get one as I can get it at wholesale and I read the reviews they were all verygood. I want a p'dog gun what caliber would you recomend? 223.22-250 or 8-06 for the little darlings? I was having a great day yesterday at the range, went with the idea of not rushing anything, took twosandwiches some cokes and coffee I was shooting exceptionally well because I didn't rush. Hmm, I replied to this previously but it didn't stick. Here is a link to the chart from Savage's web page showing available calibers for the M200: http://www.savagearms.com/st_200long.htm As you can see, the smallest caliber it's currently available in is 25-06 - a great coyte/deer caliber but a little much for the small varmints. If I were to go prairie dog shooting, I'd take my AR! It is moa capable and is a HBAR model, so could handle the shooting rate and maintain grouping. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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