LanceInOregon 0 Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 OK, it looks like buying a Saiga has more legal implications than I originally thought. And I have heard such contrasting and different viewpoints expressed too. So I thought I should ask here. There are a number of dealers selling Saigas on places like Gunbroker.com and GunsAmerica.com who do not say anything at all about any legal problems with adding high cap mags to these guns. In fact, a couple I spoke with were willing to sell me high caps with the 7.62x39 model, and told me that there was no problem in doing that. But from reading here it sounds like that is definitely a no-no to do this with a plain Saiga. And this applies to all standard Saiga models with a mag over 10 rounds, correct??? Can anyone refer me to the specific regulations that state doing this would be a violation? I would like to read this for myself. A local gunsmith told me that I would not be legally at fault, but that the dealer that sold me the rifle would be. But that makes little sense to me. Would there be a penalty for the owner? And if so, what would it be?? Is it a misdemeanor? Felony?? I've seen that many people are converting their Saigas to allow them to be modfied with items such as high cap mags and folding stocks. I've approached two local gunsmiths about doing this for my Saiga, but they both turned me down, concerned about legal liabilities they might possibly incur. My regular gunsmith that I mainly use told me that he had a real bad experience some years ago with the ATF regarding an AK he worked on. And that he thus will never touch one again because of that. He said they made threats about arresting him, and he had to go to all the expense of hiring an attorney. Converting my rifle seems like a lot of work. I don't have much in the way of any kind of tools, and absolutely no experience. Does anyone know of good gunsmith that will do conversions at a reasonable price that I could ship my Saiga to? Otherwise, I may have to forget about getting things like a pistol grip, folding stock, or high cap mag. But I really would like to enhance my Saiga if possible, if it can be legally done now. I'm concerned about this new HR-1022, as it specifically says that just owning conversion parts that turn a rifle into an "Assault Rifle" would be illegal, even if they are not installed on the gun. So if a person say had a converted Saiga with high caps, and a non-converted one, they would actually then be guility of a felony, since they owned a part that could be used to convert the other Saiga. And the frightening thing is that if this new Assault Ban is past, owning an "illegal" Assault rifle or conversion parts would be made as serious a crime as owning a sawed off rilfe or shotgun, with a mandatory 10 year Federal prison sentence! So please, if there is anyone out there who is truely and expert on these legal issues, I could appreciate some guidance on this questions, and also a reference to the text of the actual regulations that are involved. A referral to a gunsmith actually willing to work on AK's would be helpful too. Lance Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 This was recently posted by a forum member and should be worth your while to read to answer some of your questions: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry123835 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Snapshot 0 Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 Well I'm confused again. The article lists one of the bads as a threaded barrel. Most of the shotties were/are imported with a threaded barrel to accomodate chokes. My .410 was imported legally in the "sporter" configuration complete with the threaded barrel and choke kit--so its legal as is---correct. Or does the threaded barrel thing only apply to rifles? Gilberts Guns also has a skeletonized stock for the Saigas that do form a thumb-hole/pistol grip. I asked him about the compliance issue with adding the skeletonized stock to my unconverted .410 and all he said was that Saigas are now being imported with the skeletonized stock. So if the law says you can't "assemble" a weapon that would otherwise be banned for importation, then the skeletonized stock would be OK to add, since they are already being imported on some weapons. If the threaded barrel were illegal to import then none would have been imported and/or sold, correct?? If 1022 passes(God Help Us), and made weapons that have already been imported and sold, illegal, I would think current owners of stock Saigas would fall into the "preban" category and still be Ok. Am I wrong? Comments?? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loki0629 55 Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 Lance and snapshot, My rule of thumb regarding legal to own or not has always been whether or not I can find that weapon configuration in a reputable gun shop in my state. Pawn shops don't count and my definition of reputable is typically years in operation. I can not stress enough that you must learn what is legal in the state that you reside. If you can find the saiga with the skeleton stock in a shop, then by all means add the stock to an unconverted one that you have. Make sure that you can prove via receipt that it originated from the Izshmash factory in case someone argues that it is an aftermarket domestic product. If it was imported with a threaded barrel and allowed to be sold within your state then it is legal as it stands. Any further conversions will need to be checked against your state's regulations as well as the 922r. The reason that I am stressing this is that you can comply with federal regs but fall in trouble with state regs if you are purchasing from an out of state dealer. The hi-cap magazine ban has passed at the federal level but for me (in NJ) I can not possess a magazine capable of holding 15 rounds...even though I may not even have the weapon that the magazine fits in! I purchased the .308 with a skeleton stock and I can even convert it into a pistol grip with a non-folding or collapsible stock and still remain NJ legal as long as I use the standard 8 round magazine. But in order to meet federal requirements I'd have to make sure that I had enough US parts in there to still remain legal at the federal level with the 8 round mag. Guys I hope I haven't confused you any more. Basically make sure that you meet federal and state regulations. Virtually all the sellers at gunbroker or gunsamerica have a disclaimer stating that it is up to the purchaser to make sure that they comply with laws within their states. I highly doubt that they sell anything there that is not legal at the federal level. This is strictly my opinion and does not constitute legal advice. I am not a lawyer and have never played one on tv. I do have relatives that are lawyers but I don't associate with them much. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 Think you are okay with a threaded barrel on the shotty, but not on a rifle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
joelrod47 373 Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 Saiga conversion=gunsmith=Tony Rumore+TROMIX CORP=top of the line legal conversion= peace of mind/best possible weapon. See link below and give Tony a call............. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Snapshot 0 Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 I agree with you 100 % Gunny. I'm not really interested in converting mine but I did toy with the idea of changing stocks to something a little different. I purchased mine at a small gun show about 45 mins. from here and I'm going back next week for another one so I'll see what they've got. Thanks for your comments. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loki0629 55 Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 I agree with you 100 % Gunny. I'm not really interested in converting mine but I did toy with the idea of changing stocks to something a little different. I purchased mine at a small gun show about 45 mins. from here and I'm going back next week for another one so I'll see what they've got. Thanks for your comments. You're welcome. I will be going to a show in PA next week and hope to find something as well. I really want to pick up a set of windage adjustable sights but for some reason they are scarce online. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 If you want something different in the way of stocks, give me a holler. I have styles designed for maximum "tacticality" while appeasing both the parts count and the style restrictions. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LanceInOregon 0 Posted March 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 Saiga conversion=gunsmith=Tony Rumore+TROMIX CORP=top of the line legal conversion= peace of mind/best possible weapon. See link below and give Tony a call............. Jeaux: Thanks, I went to the TROMIX website and checked things out. Am I reading it correctly, that the cost to convert any SAIGA is $385 ?? Sadly, the info does not say what exactly is included in their BASIC RIFLE CONVERSION. That would not be that bad a price, if that is all I need to do in order to get peace of mind about this. I'll go ahead and give them a call. I just hope that having them make this conversion will not be an issue the government may have a bone to pick with some time down the road. Gunny: Oregon has no asssault rifle laws at this point in time. So I guess I should get this conversion done soon, before that might change. The Democrats won complete control of the state government in the last election. But the leading gun control advocate in the democratic party here has already announced she is not running for re-election, and will instead be running for the Portland City Council in 2008. So far thsi year, she is leading efforts to ban smoking in public throughtout the state, and also banning the use of Cell phones in cars. She does hate assault rifles too. Lance Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scoutjoe 276 Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 I agree with you 100 % Gunny. I'm not really interested in converting mine but I did toy with the idea of changing stocks to something a little different. I purchased mine at a small gun show about 45 mins. from here and I'm going back next week for another one so I'll see what they've got. Thanks for your comments. You're welcome. I will be going to a show in PA next week and hope to find something as well. I really want to pick up a set of windage adjustable sights but for some reason they are scarce online. the show at the Farm show complex? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
layer 0 Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 Has anyone EVER been convicted on a 922r violation? Anyone? Ever? If this regulation isn't being enforced, isn't worrying about it kind of like worrying about smoking a joint in Amsterdam? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loki0629 55 Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 the show at the Farm show complex? The weekend prior at the Valley Forge Convention Center. I want to get there Friday night before someone snatches up all the .308 ammo! Seriously this ammo situation is getting out of hand. Anybody see that Chris Rock skit where he says that if bullets were ultra expensive then there would be less gun crime? I was laughing at the absurdity of it at the time but now I'm starting to think someone in authority actually took him seriously. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
14427h 0 Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 (edited) I posted this to AR15.com and on the 7.62x 39 board here. . . I now see the light. This is the law: It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to -- This is the 1998 letter , the "high capacity ban" relateted to modified assault rifles and the opion is based on the Clinton ban. April 6, 1998 rr-2347 TREASURY PROHIBITS IMPORTATION OF CERTAIN SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT RIFLES New Prohibition Applies to Rifles that Accept Large Capacity Military Magazines Treasury Secretary Robert E. Rubin announced today a prohibition on theimportation of modified, semiautomatic assault rifles with the ability to accept large capacitymilitary magazines. Today's announcement follows a comprehensive review of the importation ofapproximately 59 modified, semiautomatic assault rifles conducted by Treasury and its Bureau ofAlcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF). The review was directed by President Clinton andSecretary Rubin last November, and stemmed from concerns that many new, dangeroussemiautomatic weapons had been developed in the nearly 10 years since the last review. "President Clinton and this Administration are committed to rigorous enforcementof laws designed to keep dangerous weapons off our streets," said Rubin. "With thisdecision, we can further reduce the flow of weapons that have no legitimate use in oursociety." Under the 1968 Gun Control Act, the Treasury Department is required to restrict theimportation of firearms unless they are determined to be "particularly suitable for or readilyadaptable to sporting purposes." In 1989, the "sporting purposes" provision led ATF to ban the importation ofseveral semiautomatic versions of assault weapons possessing military features such as bayonetmounts, pistol grips, night sights and grenade launchers. After the 1989 prohibition, certainsemiautomatic assault rifles that had failed the sporting purposes test were modified to remove allmilitary features except the ability to accept a large capacity military magazine (LCMM) thatholds more than 10 rounds. The LCMM rifles are models based on AK-47, FN-FAL, HK 91 and93, Uzi and SIG SG550 military assault rifles. This review concluded that the original prohibition is correct and that military-stylesemiautomatic rifles are not importable. This review further concluded that firearms with theability to accept a large capacity magazine designed and produced for a military assault weaponshould be banned. The review draws support from Congress and the Administration's 1994decision to ban large capacity military magazines on the grounds that they served"combat-functional ends" and were attractive to criminals. "We have no desire to take guns away from hunters, or other legitimate users. Wedo, however, want to protect Americans from the violence that can result from thesesemiautomatic weapons," said Rubin. Up to 1.6 million firearms whose importation had been suspended during the review maybe affected by this decision. Importers will be notified of this decision in writing and given anopportunity to respond. The Study on the Sporting Suitability of Modified Semiautomatic Assault Rifles isavailable through the Treasury Public Affairs Office at (202) 622-2960 or via the Internet at http://www.atf.gov/ after12:00 p.m. EDT Monday, April 6. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It was pointed out to me that they "used the 1994 AWBan as evidence, among many other things, that their so-called "large capacity" magazines were in and of themselves non-sporting. But the important thing to note is that even though the relied on the 1994 ban as evidence that large caps bring with them non-sporting status, the reality is that the 922r bans still stand on their own, unless there's a new reclassification. " So after all, unless you change 922r parts,you are screwed on the Saiga. If the Saiga takes any AK magazine, even a 10 round, as it is now capable of accepting a large capacity magazine designed and produced for a military assault weapon" (AK) magazine. And "capable of" is all the ruling states you need to do to be in 922r violation, doesn't say you have to even have one. Edited March 2, 2007 by 14427h Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKOK 4 Posted March 3, 2007 Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 I know you say you have no skills, but the conversion is fairly straight foward and not too difficult at all. You can do it yourself for about $100. Only tool you need is a drimel type tool . You can do it! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LanceInOregon 0 Posted March 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 I know you say you have no skills, but the conversion is fairly straight foward and not too difficult at all. You can do it yourself for about $100. Only tool you need is a drimel type tool . You can do it! If there was another experienced Saiga owner here in Western Oregon that I could consult, I might atempt this. But from a legaility issue, maybe I am better off having a recognized vendor do it, than myself. Especially after hearing from my gunsmith the nightmare the BATF put him through years ago. Lance in Orygun Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bugeye 2 Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 Lance, Stop consulting people...just drill the fucking rivets out and put it back together with american parts. Thats basically all you are doing...taking rivets out and making a hole for the pistol grip. The rest goes back together like it belongs there. Then go have some fun. Go slow. If you run into a problem consult somebody at this fourm and you will get a answer in 10 min - Guaranteed! Really its that easy, even I did it. Corbra has posted an excellent how to do, must have taken him longer to write the tuitoral than to convert the Saiga. After you have done it once you will pull it apart time and time again to fiddle and you get faster putting it back together each time. The hardest part is deciding what parts you want to buy. Get sharp new drill bits and DO purchase a shepards crook and throw the damn retaining wire away. Gun Control Is Hitting What You Aimed At Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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