30-06 Saiga - Mags and Popularity

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Recap (aka "whereby", "since", or "considering"):

 

The Saiga 30-06 is here. And it's living up to the reputation of Saigas for impeccable reliability and practical accuracy. It shoots reliably with everything from surplus to 220gr Remington loads. The only kind I haven't tried is Remington reduced recoil loads.

 

This model arrived 4 years after EAA promised it would be here. Expectations of another Saiga being invented and imported any time soon are unrealistic. By that time you will have had the opportunity to save for and then buy several guns.

 

For those who don't like the factory furniture any more than I do, wooden furniture styled like the other Saiga models is available from me. Not only do you go closer to the original Saiga style, but you also get to choose your options, wood choice, and style details.

 

For those who want an AK style conversion, Tromix has shown that it can be done. If you don't want to go to the expense that he did, you can still convert, just with certain customized parts required.

 

For the 10th time, BAR mags will not work. You would have to cut off and build new feed lips. It would be just as easy to make a whole new mag. If you think you can do it reliably and repeatedly, please by all means do and say you told me so, but by no means modify any load bearing part of your Saiga. If you're not sure, don't modify it until you are.

 

308 Surplus used to be far beneath 30-06, and usually non-corrossive. With surplus drying up and ammo prices rising, 30-06 and 308 are closer in price than many might think. Considering that 30-06 is in every sporting goods store from Florida to Alaska and in between, has legal AP ammo, and has factory loads up to 220gr, this may be worth your consideration for hunting, recreational shooting, and emergency preparedness alike. Certainly everything the 308 is good for and more.

 

Saiga 30-06 factory mags hold three rounds, since they are designed to be relatively flush with the receiver shell. Extending them is physically possible due to the shape of the bottom of the mag, but an extension would have to perfectly match the interior shape of the mag for the follower to move reliably. Also, the spring arrangement is ingenious but unorthodox, and would be difficult to attach to a new spring, plus there would be no tilt resistance.

 

In short, every suggestion I have read or thought of how to improvise a hi-cap for the Saiga 30-06 appears to be potentially more difficult than building a new mag. Building mags isn't easy, building good ones is darned near impossible. But there are things that are harder.

 

 

So...

 

 

I am thinking about making mags for the 30-06.

 

"Oh no, here we go again."

"I'll take XXX!!! Wait, is this a mag thread? I meant the porn."

"They're made of unobtainium!"

"I'll take 5! As soon as I get a propotion and put my kids through college and my wife who hates guns says it's ok, and I buy every other gun I ever wanted first."

"These are impossible! You're just trying to scam people on the internet!"

"I'll take 10! Do you accept unobtainium as payment?"

 

No no no... I'm not OFFERING mags. I said I'm THINKING about making them. Two questions remain. 1.) Can I? 2.) Should I?

 

The first only I can answer. What I can tell you is that they wouldn't be plastic. I used to think only machined aluminum would work for low volume, but I won't rule out sheet metal. It will require free time to be found, calculations to be done, equipment to be bought (some of which I'm buying anyway) special tooling to be made, and experiments to be performed. The only other things I can say now are that 20 rounds is the magic number, and I wouldn't expect many people to pay over $100 for one, tops. $60-100 is the goal, $80ish is probably the most likely.

 

The second is up to you. No, not an "I'll take X" post, but saying HONESTLY, REALISTICALLY if you would want any (leave quantity out) wouldn't hurt. Actually, you know the best way to tell me I should make 30-06 mags? Buy a Saiga-100 in 30-06. You asked for it. They finally, after all this time, delivered it.

 

I think some people have a reverse impression of how this works. Lots of people are saying "I won't buy it unless I can get hi-cap mags for it." But... why would anyone make hi-cap mags for a gun nobody's buying? Why would I spend thousands when people won't spend under $500 for a rifle that is good as it is?

 

Saiga fans, the ball is in your court. Buy and enjoy the Saiga 30-06. Share it with your friends and convince them to buy one too. Appreciate those 3+1 rounds that load and fire every time. And then tell me you want more.

 

 

Any resemblance to a rant is purely coincidental. The following positions have been stated by multiple people and are not mentioned in order to offend anyone.

"It's really cool but I wish it were made on a milled receiver" - Saigas have never been milled, and the cost for such a thing would be much higher than anyone wants.

"I wanted a 30-06 but then realized how cool an 8mm or 7.62x54 would be!" - The 30-06 exists. The 8mm and X54 do not. If you want the Russians to keep developing Saigas, make it worth their while and buy one in YOUR nation's cartridge.

"I don't like the way it looks." - You can change that. I can change that. It does grow on you though.

 

 

I really meant this as a mag interest gauging thread, not a rant, just that I don't hear about the Saiga-100 taking off like we wanted it to. But who will make it take off it not us, the Saiga forum?

[scoutjoe 276]

Personally, I think if you want it to happen, and you have the time to do it then by all means go ahead and tinker.

 

That being said the 30-06 is the next purchase on the list after sending my S-12 off to Tromix, so I'm intrested in what will be on the market for this gun once I get one.

 

From the practical standpoint I'm not sure how popular they will be here, alot of gun owners are hunters. I'm sure your aware that since its a semi-auto, the game commission thinks I'm simply going to cut loose with everything I got and forget that you have to aim each shot.

 

Is this the response you were going for?

[BattleRifleG3 16]

It's sane, thoughtful, and indicated an awareness of the post you were replying to. Absolutely!

[scoutjoe 276]

It's sane, thoughtful, and indicated an awareness of the post you were replying to. Absolutely!

 

And had no mention of larger than standard mags or asking the BAR question again

 

That being said when I get that one, I'm going to be getting a nice stock for it wonder who would go and make those

[czgunner 0]

You mention that 20 rounders are the "magic" number for mags in demand.

I can understand the 20 round .308 because it was a popular assault rifle round, and people like that image...but blasting away with 30-06? I dunno, I think that a 10 rounder would be worth looking at. A 20 round 30-06 mag seems like it would be huge for the application. Just a thought.

[G O B 3,516]

1 I would bet you can,

2. Should you? HELL no.

 

That said, I am saving for my S-30-06 and will definitly maybe be getting it and then will want 10 and 20 rd. Mags

 

Maybe you will have enough sense not to make them, but I doubt it- after all we are all saigahics here.

I do know that if you do they will rock!

[dinzag 31]

I am sacking away a few bucks here & there right now for one of them puppies.

 

I intend on making some for myself when I get it. I would be happy to feed you any info I find on my end as well. My route will be to find an existing mag out there in good supply & going that route. I know my buddy has some plastic remington 742 mags in 30-06. Steel ones are an option too.

 

As for machining one up, that is doable - have it screw together in 2 halves like the AGP mags. You would be able to do any kind of interior geometry you need.

 

If you are that bored, go for it! Your threat to do the mag adapters for the 308 spurred a lot of interest and somebody jumped on it and finally made a mag for it.

 

Either way we all win

 

 

edit: czgunner - some of us want +20 rounders!!!

personally I waiting for a 300 win mag version

(hint hint Tony )

Edited March 29, 2007 by dinzag

[Hunter78 1]

edit: czgunner - some of us want +20 rounders!!!

personally I waiting for a 300 win mag version

(hint hint Tony )

 

Yeah and I want a 300 remington Ultra Mag version although with the price of those shells 3 rnds would be enough

 

All dreaming aside I have alot of 30-06 stockpiled and am thinking towards a 30-06 in the near future. I think if I get one, I'd definatley want a 20rnder So if your able and so inclined go for it.

[gunboy69 50]

Besides mags, who is selling the gun?

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Armsofamerica has had them featured for some time at $399.

 

20rds is the magic number for two reasons. First, it equals one box of ammo. If you're shooting US made commercial ammo, that might be a scary concept.

 

Second, it is about the optimum size for comfort and aesthetics. My own preference is a mag that reaches down roughly as far as the grip. On something with the 308 and 30-06 rim, that's about 20rds. 30rds is just too big for my tastes in a full power rifle. Not that I would mind the ability, but the size of the mag and weight of the loaded gun would be pushing it, especially with a long action like the 30-06. 20rds is the classic size of a battle rifle mag, ie FAL, G3, and M14. Not to mention the BAR. I feel there's a reason they picked that size, and I'm going along with it.

 

10rd mags would be a possibility, but part of the plan would be to stock up on hi-caps. I'm not resigned to future bans, but basically if you had to make one now and another later, hi-caps should come now and 10rders later. Plus you can always shorten a hi-cap; it's easier than lengthening a lower cap.

[BattleRifleG3 16]

-->

QUOTE(G O B @ Mar 28 2007, 07:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1 I would bet you can,

2. Should you? HELL no.

 

Any reason for the NO other than a sense of humor?

[G O B 3,516]

This is one of those projects that takes a good sized R&D budget.

 

Maybe try something like 2 x-39 mags-slice on band saw and weld front of 1 to back of 2.

 

Scratch build seems one of those heartbreaker projects.

The one's that allways keep us working on them even after they get too big.

The recent batch of unobtanium seems to come from

talented poeple like yourself, but with good rescorces and a good support staff.

 

Don't get me wrong, I wish you luck. AND I would buy them even before getting the S-30-06! (would have to get it then!).

[BattleRifleG3 16]

I think a lot of people know what it would take to make mags, and know how hard it is, so they don't do it.

 

Considering that AGP and FBMG invested in polymer, they certainly had to anticipate a major volume. My volume would obviously be nothing compared to theirs. That tilts the economics towards other manufacturing methods, ones that don't cost as much to tool for. Like machining, which is very expensive per unit time but has a comparatively low equipment cost.

 

The downside is that you could be dropping as much as $100 on each mag.

 

 

Here are scenarios, with numbers pulled out of dark, strange, scary places.

 

 

The basic economic situation for polymer mags:

 

If someone produces polymer mags, their equipment probably costs tens of thousands, let's say $40k. Material per part would be a few dollars, let's say $5, and labor would be at least as much setup and maintenance as manufacturing. So say $20/hr for personnel, and let's say 10 mags per hour, with another hour and a half for maintenance and setup. So that's $50 labor, $50 material, all for 10 mags. Say they cost $50 each. There goes 20% of your selling price. The upside is that those labor charges are employing an American. So now we're down to $40 income per mag. Let's forget about overhead, say they already have a shop and this machine sits in the corner. So without engineering, administration, sales, marketing, and communicationg with customers, both current and prospective, the break even #of mags that would need to be sold is 1000, that's for the mags not to eat THEIR lunch, buying their next lunch is another matter entirely. Ok, sell another 1000 mags. Now it just might have covered the labor investment by the company, but maybe not, but at least it's helping to keep the doors open. Maybe another thousand mags will cross the line into showing profit, that might depend on whether any of their investments were financed and what the interest rates were. That profit of course isn't Scrooge McDuck swimming in a money vault, it's the company moving forward and being able to call the project a success instead of a failure.

 

 

 

My situation:

 

I would never expect a huge volume. I control costs by being the only person employed by me. That way if something takes more time than expected, it costs me time, not the money that pays the bills. In one person, I have all the engineering and labor resources that I would use, no meetings, no communication, no misunderstandings. If there's a mistake, I know who to blame.

 

Equipment cost would easily be $2k, not counting manufacturing of tooling. I would guestimate it would take about 25 hours of development, plus another 25 to make the tooling, assuming we're bending sheet metal. So let's call that $2000 invested, a good price for in-house engineering. So there's about $4k invested before the first sellable mag is made. Say each mag takes 2 hours to make, so now if we charge $100 per mag and then charge 2hrs of work at $20/hr, and pay $10 for the materials, we're making $50 per mag. $4000 invested / $50/mag would equal 80 mags that would need to be sold to break even.

 

Basically I would need to sell 1/30th as many as a polymer mag company at about twice the price. The upside is that these would be sheet metal, and not the lightest gauge. Not to mention being one of the only 30-06 hi-caps out there.

 

 

 

 

But this is just brainstorming. I really have no clue what they would cost. Nope, not one bit.

[G O B 3,516]

Exactly, the cost to make is high, the number of S-30-06 rifles small.

[BattleRifleG3 16]

The question is whether it's easier to sell 100 30-06 mags at $100 each or 3000 S-308 or S-12 mags at $50 each.

Edited March 31, 2007 by BattleRifleG3

[cpileri 0]

Hmmm... much as i think they would be cool....

 

How many S-30-06's made it into the country? Enough to create a demand for 100 mags?

And don't forget, everyone who wants to legally insert that mag would have to convert their rifle to 922 compliant. So that has to happen before there will be any demand for the mags (legally anyway).

 

Hope that didn't rain too hard on the parade.

C-

[BattleRifleG3 16]

I'm not exactly parading at the moment. Your points are right, which is why I was saying if anyone wanted hi-caps they will have to buy the rifles first, instead of saying they'll buy the rifles when hi-caps come out.

 

It would be a few months before I could even begin such a project anyway. I'm just putting the message out that I'll think seriously about it IF people show enough interest in the rifle first. It's a good rifle no matter what size mag it has.

 

On 922R compliance, the S-100 has 14 parts, and a mag would take care of 3. A regular piston should work for the lowest cost compliance part left, but if anyone prefers the classic Saiga style over the 100 style, a furniture set would do the trick too, and end up with one more compliance part than needed.

[cpileri 0]

Now see, you're educating me. So with your furniture and a mag, you could come out with a total 'compliance package' which happens to include a 20-rd magazine? Now THAT will get more attention!

 

Much more!

 

C-

 

 

On 922R compliance, the S-100 has 14 parts, and a mag would take care of 3. A regular piston should work for the lowest cost compliance part left, but if anyone prefers the classic Saiga style over the 100 style, a furniture set would do the trick too, and end up with one more compliance part than needed.

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Bingo. That's if you don't convert (which you can, even if you don't go all out like Tromix.) That's a drop in package with an improved stock and fresh mag, which would be legal with the factory mag too.

 

But people who want to save the most $$, prefer synth furniture, or just don't like mine could finish their parts compliance with a $20 piston.

Edited April 2, 2007 by BattleRifleG3

[cpileri 0]

Hmmm...

Well, about how much time and investment on your part? and what would the end-user cost of a 'total compliance' package be? Say the required furniture, plus the mag?

 

Just a guess, i know. But I'm interested, now.

C-

 

 

 

Bingo. That's if you don't convert (which you can, even if you don't go all out like Tromix.) That's a drop in package with an improved stock and fresh mag, which would be legal with the factory mag too.

 

But people who want to save the most $$, prefer synth furniture, or just don't like mine could finish their parts compliance with a $20 piston.

[BattleRifleG3 16]

A furniture set for the Saiga 100 would start at $140 shipped. This is one step up from the price for other Saiga rifles due to larger size and a more complicated attachment point on the buttstock.

 

If I did a mag + furniture compliance package, it would probably include a couple mags and a price break for the package.

 

Can't say how soon, except that it would be at least a few months before I could even start, and even then I would have to R&D a bit.

 

As I said, I would estimate the investment value at about $4000, and I would have to sell about a hundred mags before it starts to make economic sense.

 

When you think about it, 100 mags really isn't that many at all. People just have to buy the rifles first. So this thread is about getting people to take the rifles seriously if they want any mag and accessory manufacturers to take the rifles seriously. Not the other way around.

[limaguppy 0]

Recap (aka "whereby", "since", or "considering"):

 

The Saiga 30-06 is here. And it's living up to the reputation of Saigas for impeccable reliability and practical accuracy. It shoots reliably with everything from surplus to 220gr Remington loads. The only kind I haven't tried is Remington reduced recoil loads.

 

This model arrived 4 years after EAA promised it would be here. Expectations of another Saiga being invented and imported any time soon are unrealistic. By that time you will have had the opportunity to save for and then buy several guns.

 

For those who don't like the factory furniture any more than I do, wooden furniture styled like the other Saiga models is available from me. Not only do you go closer to the original Saiga style, but you also get to choose your options, wood choice, and style details.

 

For those who want an AK style conversion, Tromix has shown that it can be done. If you don't want to go to the expense that he did, you can still convert, just with certain customized parts required.

 

For the 10th time, BAR mags will not work. You would have to cut off and build new feed lips. It would be just as easy to make a whole new mag. If you think you can do it reliably and repeatedly, please by all means do and say you told me so, but by no means modify any load bearing part of your Saiga. If you're not sure, don't modify it until you are.

 

308 Surplus used to be far beneath 30-06, and usually non-corrossive. With surplus drying up and ammo prices rising, 30-06 and 308 are closer in price than many might think. Considering that 30-06 is in every sporting goods store from Florida to Alaska and in between, has legal AP ammo, and has factory loads up to 220gr, this may be worth your consideration for hunting, recreational shooting, and emergency preparedness alike. Certainly everything the 308 is good for and more.

 

Saiga 30-06 factory mags hold three rounds, since they are designed to be relatively flush with the receiver shell. Extending them is physically possible due to the shape of the bottom of the mag, but an extension would have to perfectly match the interior shape of the mag for the follower to move reliably. Also, the spring arrangement is ingenious but unorthodox, and would be difficult to attach to a new spring, plus there would be no tilt resistance.

 

In short, every suggestion I have read or thought of how to improvise a hi-cap for the Saiga 30-06 appears to be potentially more difficult than building a new mag. Building mags isn't easy, building good ones is darned near impossible. But there are things that are harder.

 

 

So...

 

 

I am thinking about making mags for the 30-06.

 

"Oh no, here we go again."

"I'll take XXX!!! Wait, is this a mag thread? I meant the porn."

"They're made of unobtainium!"

"I'll take 5! As soon as I get a propotion and put my kids through college and my wife who hates guns says it's ok, and I buy every other gun I ever wanted first."

"These are impossible! You're just trying to scam people on the internet!"

"I'll take 10! Do you accept unobtainium as payment?"

 

No no no... I'm not OFFERING mags. I said I'm THINKING about making them. Two questions remain. 1.) Can I? 2.) Should I?

 

The first only I can answer. What I can tell you is that they wouldn't be plastic. I used to think only machined aluminum would work for low volume, but I won't rule out sheet metal. It will require free time to be found, calculations to be done, equipment to be bought (some of which I'm buying anyway) special tooling to be made, and experiments to be performed. The only other things I can say now are that 20 rounds is the magic number, and I wouldn't expect many people to pay over $100 for one, tops. $60-100 is the goal, $80ish is probably the most likely.

 

The second is up to you. No, not an "I'll take X" post, but saying HONESTLY, REALISTICALLY if you would want any (leave quantity out) wouldn't hurt. Actually, you know the best way to tell me I should make 30-06 mags? Buy a Saiga-100 in 30-06. You asked for it. They finally, after all this time, delivered it.

 

I think some people have a reverse impression of how this works. Lots of people are saying "I won't buy it unless I can get hi-cap mags for it." But... why would anyone make hi-cap mags for a gun nobody's buying? Why would I spend thousands when people won't spend under $500 for a rifle that is good as it is?

 

Saiga fans, the ball is in your court. Buy and enjoy the Saiga 30-06. Share it with your friends and convince them to buy one too. Appreciate those 3+1 rounds that load and fire every time. And then tell me you want more.

 

 

Any resemblance to a rant is purely coincidental. The following positions have been stated by multiple people and are not mentioned in order to offend anyone.

"It's really cool but I wish it were made on a milled receiver" - Saigas have never been milled, and the cost for such a thing would be much higher than anyone wants.

"I wanted a 30-06 but then realized how cool an 8mm or 7.62x54 would be!" - The 30-06 exists. The 8mm and X54 do not. If you want the Russians to keep developing Saigas, make it worth their while and buy one in YOUR nation's cartridge.

"I don't like the way it looks." - You can change that. I can change that. It does grow on you though.

 

 

I really meant this as a mag interest gauging thread, not a rant, just that I don't hear about the Saiga-100 taking off like we wanted it to. But who will make it take off it not us, the Saiga forum?

hello there!

I bought a 30 06 saiga last fall and i drove all the way from Lima , Ohio to Frankfort , Ky. to get one!

I havenot used it much all winter but i loved to shot it when i have; at 300 yards or more it will do the job!

the 3 round mag shucks big time.

I have been thinking and working on a larger round mag. I found some parts today at the Dayton Ohio gun show and i thinh I am close to either or a 20 or 20 round system. Hand dry feeding i was able to put up to 20 rounds through the mag.sys.Monday i will go back to our range and live fire it starting with 8 rponds!

I will say you have to use the top part of the 3 rd.saiga for sure.If it works i willnot do any more ,i think because you need a real Saiga top to get started!

If some can do a easy one i would buy some for may self, ay least 10 rounders!

Edited April 24, 2007 by limaguppy