Saige .223 Trigger Issues (Fully Auto !?!)

[darkhalo7 0]

Hey everyone,

 

I purchased a new saiga .223 from a gun store several months ago and decided to read up on conversions. I followed the http://www.cross-conn.com/Saiga_Conversion/ instructions. I purchased a AK G2 Single Hook Trigger Group from tapco along with the other usual 'conversion' items one buys for the saiga. I moved up and installed the trigger group and reused the orginal trigger spring. I kept the retention spring and slid it on one of those binding posts the author recommends. Did a little paint job, made sure everything looked as it should. I took it to the range with out any issues about a month ago and everything was perfect! I was very impressed and excited about how easy it all turned out.

 

Well, I took it out today and found that when I lightly pull the trigger it will go "Fully Auto" on me!!!! I wanted to take my time and get the shot lined up like I read about and then 2 shots rang out. I looked around me a bit and took a deep breath. I decided to see if this was just my imagination. I tried again and this time FOUR rounds went off before I could completely full the trigger. I turned around and found everyone at the out door range staring at me. One older gentle man was walking towards the gun shop but never lost his gaze on me. Few minutes later one of the owners asked to see my gun. He said ATF and police are always visiting. He inspected the gun and moved the safety half way between 'safe' and 'fire'. He told me normally you would hear or feel a click, I don't remember, and asked If I made any mods to the gun. Told him about the conversion and that It should be compliant. I rattled that off out of nervousness. He told me compliance doesn't matter in this case. I sort of guessed that. He then said to return the trigger group and install the old one. He said he was going to consider this a malfunction. He walked away.

 

I'm still nervous right now and probably won't go back there after what I read in a different post about jail, fines, and life-is-over. Can some one help me fix this issue? Did I maybe miss something in the conversion or is this a common problem about the slow squeeze? And do you think this owner will file a report? I'm dead aren't I? I just wanted a cool gun. *SIGH*

 

Sorry for the long story. I just needed to get it off my chest.

 

Thanks for any help,

 

Edward

[cscharlie 107]

Take a deep breath and blow it out.

 

If you did as posted above it was a malfuntion. It takes considerable amount of modification to convert an AK to full auto. You would have had to do more than just install the wrong parts or something like that.

 

You just need to figure out what caused the malfunction and correct it.

 

I had that happen to me with a 7.62x39 Saiga. I didn't get the retaining plate in the the groove of the axis pin that the hammer pivot on and the pin walked out of the hole on one side. When this happened, the hammer was canted to one side so it didn't line up with the disconnector. Which is what catches the hammer if the trigger it still pulled when the hammer is recocked. So it was slam firing. Kind of dangerous to the shooter.

 

Are you sure it's not an adjustable trigger? Could you have reinstalled the old hammer by mistake? Did you do any mods to the FCG? Like grinding or poloshing ect..

Look at your fire control group with the dust cover off while cycling the action. Post some pictures if you can . We'll help you figure out what's wrong with it dude.

Edited July 1, 2007 by cscharlie

[darkhalo7 0]

I didn't modify the FCG. Later today I'll be taking that cover off and looking over the action of the trigger group. I did buy and install the recommended retainer plate. I just realized that this actually replaced the "Trigger Shepard Spring". I still have that in the gun after installing the retainer plate. I didn't see nor understand it's use until now but I noticed that in the conversion website pix the author installs this spring back into the rifle. I'm guessing this would not cause an issue, to have both the retainer plate AND the trigger shepard spring (just laying to the side) still in the rifle. I'll remove it, inspect the action and then submit photos for anyone willing to assist me. I need to read a bit more on the term 'slam fire'. You mention it's dangerous. That just adds another reason not to have this preban/illegal feature ( Fully Auto ) on my saiga.

 

Thanks for the early morning response cscharlie.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

If you properly install the plate you can just cut the old spring out. Or take out the binding post and remove it. If your hammer pin is visibly flush with the RH side of the reciever it should function correctly, assuming you installed a disconnector spring, which it sounds to me like is missing.

[quinci956 1]

Did you bolt or weld the trigger guard on? You may have something under the rear of the trigger where it contacts the floor of the receiver. The FCG should sit completely flat in the receiver. I had one do the same thing. I had welded the trigger guard in and failed to clean the inside of the receiver before installing the FCG. There was a tiny metal ball from the weld that canted the FCG foreward. When I used a strong deliberate trigger pull there was no problem. When I used a light slow pull as you described, mine would fire two to four rounds before I got the trigger all the way back. It would only fire four because number five would get jammed. Check and make sure your FCG is flush and level in your receiver.

[6500rpm 670]

+1 on Cobras post, almost all unwanted double (or in your case 4) taps are disconnector/spring related.

I have had some disconnector springs that were too short on AK builds that kept the disconnector from catching the hammer. Copes sells new ones cheap. I have also had issues with G2 groups where they were

too tight on the hollow tube that holds the trigger and disconnector together for installation. They should both ride free on the tube. In cases where mine was too tight, I just chucked the tube up in a hand drill with a little valve grinding compound (available cheap at any auto parts store), and ran with the disconnector, or trigger, until the part moves freely on the tube. Make sure you clean out all the grit and lube when your done. I've never had issues with the retaining plate, just make sure it engages the slots in the pin-I also like cheap "e" clips from the hardware store for pin retainers.

 

Chill out, your not in any shit.....something just went wrong with the gun, it happens more often than you think on a variety of guns for several reasons. If they inspected your gun and have any clue at all, they can tell that no mods were done. Get it fixed and have some fun.

 

Just to be clear after re-reading your post, you should have installed two springs on your trigger group.

one that swings the hammer (which you obviously did), and the second disconnector spring that goes between the trigger and disconnector (this part does not come with the G2, but has to be installed between the parts that ride the tube.

[darkhalo7 0]

If you properly install the plate you can just cut the old spring out. Or take out the binding post and remove it. If your hammer pin is visibly flush with the RH side of the reciever it should function correctly, assuming you installed a disconnector spring, which it sounds to me like is missing.

 

Cobra 76 two, I will remove the trigger shepard spring as it no longer has a use. I did install a disconnector spring between the trigger itself and the disconnector. The spring was the original spring that came with my saiga. I will consider buying a replacement just to be safe.

 

Thanks for the response!

 

Edward

 

The problem solving continues.

[darkhalo7 0]

Did you bolt or weld the trigger guard on? You may have something under the rear of the trigger where it contacts the floor of the receiver. The FCG should sit completely flat in the receiver. I had one do the same thing. I had welded the trigger guard in and failed to clean the inside of the receiver before installing the FCG. There was a tiny metal ball from the weld that canted the FCG foreward. When I used a strong deliberate trigger pull there was no problem. When I used a light slow pull as you described, mine would fire two to four rounds before I got the trigger all the way back. It would only fire four because number five would get jammed. Check and make sure your FCG is flush and level in your receiver.

 

Hey Madmillo,

 

I checked and there were no bolts, spot welds or other metals interfering with the G2 Trigger group. The group is flush and level as you mention.

 

Edward

[darkhalo7 0]

+1 on Cobras post, almost all unwanted double (or in your case 4) taps are disconnector/spring related.

I have had some disconnector springs that were too short on AK builds that kept the disconnector from catching the hammer. Copes sells new ones cheap. I have also had issues with G2 groups where they were

too tight on the hollow tube that holds the trigger and disconnector together for installation. They should both ride free on the tube. In cases where mine was too tight, I just chucked the tube up in a hand drill with a little valve grinding compound (available cheap at any auto parts store), and ran with the disconnector, or trigger, until the part moves freely on the tube. Make sure you clean out all the grit and lube when your done. I've never had issues with the retaining plate, just make sure it engages the slots in the pin-I also like cheap "e" clips from the hardware store for pin retainers.

 

Chill out, your not in any shit.....something just went wrong with the gun, it happens more often than you think on a variety of guns for several reasons. If they inspected your gun and have any clue at all, they can tell that no mods were done. Get it fixed and have some fun.

 

Just to be clear after re-reading your post, you should have installed two springs on your trigger group.

one that swings the hammer (which you obviously did), and the second disconnector spring that goes between the trigger and disconnector (this part does not come with the G2, but has to be installed between the parts that ride the tube.

 

6500rpm,

 

Excellent points. I will be considering purchasing a replacement spring to be on the safe side.

 

About the hollow tube ( aka bushing or trigger sleeve ), I noticed it is on very tight. When I pull the trigger and try to hold the tube still with my finger it continues to move. I tried to hold the tube still with a tool and it still moved along with the trigger when pulled. The tube moves loosely on the trigger pin but not the trigger group, It's on tight. So you recommend that I grind it down a bit until it is loose between both the trigger group AND the trigger pin?

 

Thanks for your info!

 

Edward

[darkhalo7 0]

Just to be clear after re-reading your post, you should have installed two springs on your trigger group.

one that swings the hammer (which you obviously did), and the second disconnector spring that goes between the trigger and disconnector (this part does not come with the G2, but has to be installed between the parts that ride the tube.

 

 

Here is a pix of my trigger group exposing the disconnector spring.

 

Should be okay but I will be replacing the spring with a new one.

 

Edward

[darkhalo7 0]

Take a deep breath and blow it out.

 

If you did as posted above it was a malfuntion. It takes considerable amount of modification to convert an AK to full auto. You would have had to do more than just install the wrong parts or something like that.

 

You just need to figure out what caused the malfunction and correct it.

 

I had that happen to me with a 7.62x39 Saiga. I didn't get the retaining plate in the the groove of the axis pin that the hammer pivot on and the pin walked out of the hole on one side. When this happened, the hammer was canted to one side so it didn't line up with the disconnector. Which is what catches the hammer if the trigger it still pulled when the hammer is recocked. So it was slam firing. Kind of dangerous to the shooter.

 

Are you sure it's not an adjustable trigger? Could you have reinstalled the old hammer by mistake? Did you do any mods to the FCG? Like grinding or poloshing ect..

Look at your fire control group with the dust cover off while cycling the action. Post some pictures if you can . We'll help you figure out what's wrong with it dude.

 

cscharlie,

 

Here are the pix I hope will help me with getting my issue resolved. If you can think of any other angles or any particular part of my gun you need to view please let me know.

 

Thanks again gentlemen.

 

Edward

[vjor 2]

Here check if the disconnector is working on empty gun, cover off, cycle gun by hand

pull trigger to fire on empty gun, don't let go off the trigger and cycle the bolt again

the disconnector should hold the hammer back, as you let go of the trigger

the claw will catch the hammer after the disconnector let it go, if not

you will see were is the problem.

 

Try it first in slow, if works try it again few times as fast as you can

see if failure happens, shit happens and happens to any one.

 

Use one or the other one, spring or plate.

 

Just my 2 cents worth of nothing.

Edited July 2, 2007 by vjor

[darkhalo7 0]

Here check if the disconnector is working on empty gun, cover off, cycle gun by hand

pull trigger to fire on empty gun, don't let go off the trigger and cycle the bolt again

the disconnector should hold the hammer back, as you let go of the trigger

the claw will catch the hammer after the disconnector let it go, if not

you will see were is the problem.

 

Try it first in slow, if works try it again few times as fast as you can

see if failure happens, shit happens and happens to any one.

 

Use one or the other one, spring or plate.

 

Just my 2 cents worth of nothing.

 

vjor,

 

Your 2 cents are always welcome. In fact you may have helped me explain what happened to me in the range. While cycling the action I noticed that the trigger worked as it should but when I simply squeezed the trigger light and slow I felt there what might be a tiny gap where any sudden movement could cause the hammer to release from the disconnector. I think this happens to me because I leave my finger in a certain position for too long and when the 1st round goes off the guns jerking most likely causes my finger to move and actually fire another round. Is this possible? Could my trigger group be sensitive enough to allow me to keep my finger in a certain position and cause it to continue cycling until I move out of this 'sweet spot'? I did cycle the action as normal and the disconnector catches as it should. All looks well but I just have this "feeling" that I may be causing the gun to shoot several times in a row. If so, would this mean the trigger group is defective?

 

Thanks again,

 

Edward

[vjor 2]

Yes, in my 7.62x39 the hammer is so light, that if you easy your grip, I can bump fire a hold mag

from the shoulder or small bursts, the gun is not auto, just the trigger have a low pull, that make it easy

to bump fire at minor recoil, FSE triggers I have found to be the easies to work

to make the gun easy to bump fire, but that don't mean a G2 tapco can not be made

easy to bump fire.

 

One problem I have found is that, I getting accustomed to bump fire the gun

and have to pay attention when I use to avoid letting go small bursts of 2 or

3 rounds, friend have use the gun, including my kids, no problems

at all, but for my self is so easy to bump it and so accustomed to it that

is becoming something of a problem, and some times the only way for other

people to see the short burst is to count the cases, but I can let go one round

at a time if I pay attention on my grip on the gun.

 

One way to found out is to take it to the range, mag with 2 round and ask the guy

next to you to try the gun, see if it bump fire or not or take a friend to the range

and let him try.

 

One thing I will say remove the spring and use only the plate on the FCG.

Edited July 2, 2007 by vjor

[cscharlie 107]

Good advise VJOR.

 

When doing the function check, holding the trigger back and cycling the action to cock the hammer, then slowly allowing the trigger to move forward, there should not be enough space between the trigger hook and the disconnecter to allow the disconecter to release the hammer without the hook on the trigger catching it. In short, when releasing the trigger slow/or fast, the hammer should not fall to strike the firing pin. It should not be possible for you to cause it to fire more than one time with a single pull of the trigger no matter how slow you squeeze it. Even with bump firing, the trigger is moving forward enough to allow the disconnector to release the hammer and the trigger hook to catch the hammer before moving back again to release the hammer from the trigger hook.

 

Another thing I would do is using a micrometer, or a set of calipers is mesure the FCG parts to see if something is out of spec. Like the distance from the hole in the hammer up to the point where the hook on the trigger and the disconnecter catches, the distance of that section of the hammer from front to back, the length of the hook on the trigger ect...

 

Another thing I would check is the position of the holes in the reciever for the trigger and hammer pin. Like the distance between them, how far up from the bottom and rear of the reciever ect... Then compare measurements with others.

Edited July 2, 2007 by cscharlie