SKS or S .308

[bigcrabrob 0]

I am torn between the sks (with tapco mods) or saiga .308 ver 21 when it arrives later this month. I know that the 7.62x39 is much MUCH cheaper to shoot, but lacks in stoping power over 200+ Yards. The S .308 V. 21 will come with thumb-hole stock and relocated trigger group, thus making upgrades a cinch should I want them. If I get the SKS it will be an un-issued Yugo 59/66 + Tapco T6 fusion and Tri-Rail dust mount. For either, I want the POSP 4-8x42 Illuminated russian scope. Tell me what you guys think. I want a gun that gets fair grouping out to 500 yards, and the sks just doesnt have the punch. Both have semi-auto, High cap mag's available, look great..... its just that power wise, the .308 leaves the x39 looking like it's wearing a dress....

Thanks to anyone who can tell me just how much more effective the s .308 will be over the sks - power and accuracy. SKS with mods = $550.00 or S .308 ver. 21 with Scope and Bi-Pod = $620.00

Robert.

Happy soon to be Thanks Giving!!!

[Motopilot1 37]

not to knock either one of your choices but for that money why not just get a bolt action rifle if your looking for the accuracy at 500 yards or possibly look into the Dragunov style rifles if you get one chambered in 7.62x51 it has good power at longer yards and is even cheaper than the sks to shoot you can get 10rounds of match ammo for around 3$ or surplus for far less

[Motopilot1 37]

sorry on previous post 7.62x54 on the dragunov

[SaigaNoobie 66]

IF you want a "Dragunov" for $700, you're really getting a PSL, or, in other words, a long barreled AK in x54R.

 

If you want a Semi-auto Sniper rifle. $10000 for a PSG1, $8000 for a REAL Drag. $3000 for Chicom Drag, $2000 for Russian Carbine (Tiger) Drag. or pay $3-5000 for a M21, M25 or M1A rifle.

 

IMO, pass on the SKS. If you want the cheaper ammo, get a x39 Saiga. I paid $290 for the gun shipped and Transfered ($30 FFL). PSOP will run you $120ish. That still leaves $140 for Trigger group, furniture, bipod, stock. You'll be getting a brand new chromed barrel, not a surplus P.O.S.... If the SKS action were better than the AK action, all the Russian military guns would be SKS instead of AK's

 

But then again, I think SKS's are over rated and over priced.

[Motopilot1 37]

note i said a dragunov style rifle yes a long barrelled ak in 7.62x54 but for cheap shooting there ya go if you want to get a nice rifle buy a springfield m1a semi auto 7.62x51 and accurate to 1000yards+

[Motopilot1 37]

M1a is more in the high 1000$ low 2000$ range

[SaigaNoobie 66]

Yes for the stock M1A, but not the Super match, which is what you'd want if you really want 5" groups at 500yrds. THe M1A supermatch is 3400

[Zebra 0]

truthntime:

 

i own a yugo 59/66 and i must admit before my un-issued rifle arrived i was thinking about doing something along the same lines as you were thinking until the thing arrived. it looked beautiful even covered in that nasty ass packing grease. once i got it all cleaned up i just couldn't bear to start ripping it apart to make it into something it really wasn't.

 

if you want something with a little more punch and a little more tactical i'd go with the S-308. with the S-308 you get the AK proven design, tons of AK compatible add ons, hi-cap mags that actually work (many have had problems with the SKS duckbill style mags) and my s-308 even with the 22 inch barrel is lighter than my Yugo SKS.

 

how much punch do you want? ever thought about a bolt action rifle? Savage makes a pretty decent rifle. most of their centerfire rifle have after market barrels available that a do it yourselfer can do in pretty much any caliber ranging from .223 on up to 35 whelen and beyond

[topgun2000 0]

Try to spend $400 ~ $600 for a bolt action sniper rifle, say: Savage 10FP or 12FV in .308 w/ factory heavy free floating barrel, accrigger trigger ... no semi-auto can get even close to that in the price range.

 

then when you are shooting it, learn to if or which semi-auto is needed for your shooting ...

 

leave sks for plinking. lol

[SaigaNoobie 66]

Usually people misspell SKS and leave out two crucial letters.

 

Note the letters in the brackets---> S[uc]KS

 

$200-300 for a Chinese/Yugoslavian/insert-other-crap-ass-contry-here gun, whose design has been outdated and outclassed for 60 years? I don't think so. Not when I can get a Russian AK in x39, .223, .308, .410, 20 & 12ga. for anywhere from 260-500 NEW.

 

Why would you want the weight of a Bolt-action with no benefit over an AK?

 

SucKS pros:

 

Ugly (if you're into that sort of thing. It looks like a speed boat with a dildo on the bow.)

Bayonet (For those times where you run out of stripper clips or the thing jams on you.)

 

SucKS Cons:

 

Heavy

80% of shipping weight is grease.

UGLY (For those of us who aren't into that sort of thing)

Slow-reload

 

AK Pros:

 

Awesome

Prettier than YOUR senior prom date (Notice the emphasis on YOUR prom date.)

Light

Fast Reload

Most reliable Semi-auto rifle in the world

Scares the RDDB's

Every month you get to see your gun in the headlines somewhere (Even if the actual gun used in the crime was an SucKS)

 

AK Cons:

 

Might be too scary if you carry a Voter Registration card that says "DEM" under Party.

You can only participate in reenactments of every war after 1947 as one side or the other. Before that you'll need a bolty. (Preferably a Mosin as they were used in every conflict in the 20th century pre 1980.)

No Fold-out bayonet. (Not that you'll need one since you can just pop in another mag, unlike the SucKS)

 

 

Anyway, I'm in a pissy mood and really hate S[uc]KS guns. Sorry if I offended your love for the dildo-speedboat gun.

 

P.S. When the world thinks of SKS guns in use, they picture this:

 

Plus if California allows them you know they're a pansy ass rifle so get the Saiga and stick a Pgrip on it. Plus, get the cool one now before Hitlary bans guns and makes your town Washington D.C.

 

When I think AK I think:

Edited November 19, 2007 by SaigaNoobie

[loki0629 55]

If you have that much to spend on one weapon you may want to go with option 3:

Buy both.

 

Leave them stock and shoot them to the limits of your ability. When you get better upgrade to the equipment you need. The easiest upgrade would be a scope since it requires no mods to the weapon.

 

If you're going for the tacticool look, get the AK and mod the hell out of it. You'll save maybe a half pound to a pound in weight over an sks...unless you start hanging all that crap on it to make it tacticooler.

 

Oh and whether you own an SKS or an AK, I'm pretty sure your chances of getting hot chicks are still going to remain the same.

[SaigaNoobie 66]

NU-UH!

 

Hot chicks DIG AK's

 

They don't dig the Hiding-in-a-hole-dirty-mole look.

[loki0629 55]

Maybe if your AK looked like this:

 

 

BLING! BLING!

[NY-proletariat 0]

I maybe stating the obvios, but can you even shoot 500 yds? If you can, then you know that an SKS is not a 500 yd gun or cartridge. If you can't then an SKS is the gun to begin with if you have champagne taste, but a beer budget. Start out at 100 and then 200 until you work upto 300 yds with your SKS. Once you become good at 300 yds (Not once but consistently) you can start looking for something that can shoot well at 500 yds. M-1A's, Garands, and scoped sniper grade rifles will be your choices. FALS, G-3's can shoot that far,but have real crude sight adjustments to be exact at those ranges even though they're chambered for honest rifle cartridges. Beginners shouldn't be confused with these problems anyways.

If you choose an SKS, get the adjustable Tech-Sites rear sight for it. You'll have excellent sights and increase your abilities at longer ranges (200-300 yds). Plus you'll be able to afford lots of practice ammo which is the only way to become good at shooting!

 

This is not to bash AK's, but he did say 500 yd shooting. And no AK I know of can shoot that accurately out 500 yds. Even if you hit your target, the round has lost alot of its power by the time it gets to 500yds.

[loki0629 55]

Oh I dunno...zero the sks at 300 yds....something like a 60" holdover on the vertical (at 500 yds). It'll punch paper at that distance...in theory anyway. I would get the Tech sights though. And I would never take a hunting shot like that.

Edited November 19, 2007 by GunnyR

[patriot 7,197]

Savage Tactical in 308. Accurate <.5MOA for mine. EASILY a 500 yd gun. I dropped a deer at a measured ~600yds with a 165gr Sierra HPBT, from the kneeling position, with sling wrap, witnessed by three people. AKs are good, I have a couple, but for the most accuracy for your $, nothing beats a good bolt gun.

Edited November 19, 2007 by patriot

[G O B 3,516]

Get an SKS AND a S-.308. I have both, and wouldn't have it any other way!

 

A stock SKS is the FASTEST loading thing out there. The 10rd stripper clips in the top goes faster than anything outside an M1 Garrand. ESPECIALLY if you are pinned down with you'r belly in the mud.

Try putting mags in a bottom loader on you'r belly.

[bigcrabrob 0]

Thanks for all of the info guys ! I think I am going with this .308 right HERE ( http://www.raacfirearms.com/Saiga_308v21.htm )

I have been talking to lots of folks, and many have said "sure you can go out 500 yards with a .308 22" barrel.... thats what alot of military snipers are shooting". Ok , maybee a longer barrel for them This will be my first new rifle purchase, I have a couple of shotguns and a couple of Mosin Naggie's

M-44 and 91/30 non sniper. I am thinking the version shown in my link will provide me with a great plaform to grow in skill; both shooting and modifying.

I am so glad you guys have this forum by the way... and thanks to you all for the input again. Not sure if the link will be clicky or not... may have to cut and paste to browser. Robert.

 

Beaumont, TX

[Motopilot1 37]

To saiga noobie in response to standard m1a cant do 5" groups at 500yards you obviously have no idea what you are talking about its all the shooter the m1a is capable if you dont think so maybe you should actually shoot one before you shoot your mouth off

[paul kersey 0]

truthntime, good choice. i'm tryin to get the same model, but i guess its hurry up an Waite. it will be my first rifle, i hope the price aint real bad, any new word when they will be available? thanks...pk

[bigcrabrob 0]

truthntime, good choice. i'm tryin to get the same model, but i guess its hurry up an Waite. it will be my first rifle, i hope the price aint real bad, any new word when they will be available? thanks...pk

 

Talked to the guy who own's/run's Russian American Armory, and he said late november/early december arrival for the ver.21 like in the link. There should also be new accessories available by the end of next week... including a 25 round poly mag! As far as price is concerned, I am thinking around 430.00 to 475.00. Note the relocated trigger, I believe that is a plus as many folks talk about haveing to relocate the trigger group forward for mods........ ours will allready be in place:) not to mention the nice thumb through stock. I am excited about getting this thing!!!

Robert.

 

Beaumont, TX

 

P.S. I have no stake in RAA's site, and only useing their link for reference... and mentioning the new accessories because it might benefit all the .308 S holders:)

That link again to the gun I want my hands on ( http://www.raacfirearms.com/Saiga_308v21.htm )

[bigcrabrob 0]

G O B & Zebra, Guys, thanks for all the info. I do have a couple bolts, M44 and 91/30. I am thinking about scopeing the 91/30....... but hate the thought of putting screws in the metal. I tried the rear leaf removal/screw down rail for scope, and its JUNK with a capital J! I just know that the Saiga .308 with the features on the Version 21 will float my boat:) just wanted to give a quick thanks for takeing the time to help me out here.

 

Robert,

 

Beaumont, TX

[SaigaNoobie 66]

To saiga noobie in response to standard m1a cant do 5" groups at 500yards you obviously have no idea what you are talking about its all the shooter the m1a is capable if you dont think so maybe you should actually shoot one before you shoot your mouth off

 

You're right, every Stock M1A can do sub MOA groups..... OR is it that Springfield Armory ONLY Guarantees 3-3.5" groups at 100yrds out of their stock M1A?

 

TO GET Sub MOA you HAVE to buy the M21 or M25 or M1A Supermatch OR do a shit load of extras to the stock M1A. Maybe YOU should actually do some research before you shoot your mouth off MOTOPILOT1.

 

Point is, S.308 will get 2" groups at 100yrds for under $400 and M1A's will get 3" groups at 100yrds for $1500. It's your money.

[bigcrabrob 0]

2" groups at 100 yards is great!

I hate to be critical of anyone........ but, NY-proletariat stated that he knew of no AK that shoots accurate out to 500 yards.... I agree that maybee no 20 year old 7.62x39 can hit that mark..... but a new production .308 AK platform with a 22" barrel and 8x42 PSOP can and will. Or at least i have my fingers crossed it will:) As for the guy who refered to the sks (SucKS) as the speed boat dildo gun.... I had to pull my cousin in to read the post... very funny, and I love the picture of the little fellow with the sks!

 

Robert.

 

Beaumont

[SaigaNoobie 66]

TruthNTime, I think NY was talking about 7.62x39 AK's. And I agree, the Energy lost at 500 yrds with the intermediate rifle cartridge would be significant. With the .308 Saiga you'd have less of a problem.

 

I'm glad you got a kick out of the SucKS rant. I just never liked them, and people who praise them make no sense to me. "YAY! I got a P.O.S that was used in Vietnam. Watch me flip out the bayonet! WOOOO! and I only payed enough to have bought a new saiga in x39 or .223 and 100rds of Ammo. I R soooo Smert!"

[Zebra 0]

I just never liked them, and people who praise them make no sense to me. "YAY! I got a P.O.S that was used in Vietnam."

 

if that's the case do feel the same way about the AR?

 

not trying to stir the shit, just wondering.

 

TruthNTime glad i could be of some help.

[SaigaNoobie 66]

I just never liked them, and people who praise them make no sense to me. "YAY! I got a P.O.S that was used in Vietnam."

 

if that's the case do feel the same way about the AR?

 

not trying to stir the shit, just wondering.

 

TruthNTime glad i could be of some help.

 

 

Stir away Zebra

 

Yes, the AR is a P.O.S.

 

I don't give a RATS ASS if you can shoot 1/4 MOA from a bench with your AR-15. The only person I've ever seen say that they've never had a problem with their AR even when they don't clean it is BOBASH and he has a fucking TROMIX AR-15. The stock Pieces of SHIT $1000.00 crap ass guns are going to jam on you and unless your enemy is out in the open, your nice accuracy isn't going to do SHIT. At 30 feet (10yrds) 1/4 MOA and 25 MOA are only 1.124 inches apart. Now you're going to say "Nuh uh! At 10yrds 25 MOA is 2.5" and the difference between that and .025" (basically hole-in-hole accuracy) is 2.475" LOLOL" but you AR-15 dipshits forget that if I have a 25 MOA gun shooting 2.5" groups at 10 yards that means it's only 1.124" radius so if we both center our groups at the same point, my 25 MOA rifle is shooting 1.124" to the left, right, high, or low of your laser beam accuracy. Ok so now that we're INSIDE an URBAN environment fighting, what matters more? Accuracy or firepower and reliability? What the fuck does it matter at that range? Plus a 25MOA AK can still shoot through a mud-brick wall and kill your AR wielding ass while your bullet laser will come out of the wall at a breezy "welt your bare skin" speed.

 

The AR isn't a bad platform, the underpowered .223 BLOWS for anything but open field shooting. So yes, the M-16 is a POS unless you spend enough to get a TROMIX or a fucking bad-ass gas-piston AR. Then you might have a gun that won't have the reliability issues of standard AR-15s. It only took the snobs 40 years to realize that gas blowback SUCKS and they needed a piston. Now they act like it's a brand new design and revolutionary..... SVD's have a spring loaded piston no? What a bunch of fucknuts AR-15 snobs are.

 

I see these guys with AR-15s for sale at gun shows $800-$2000. . . . So I ask them "What's the benefit to this over say an AK platform?" They always reply "Well AK's are so inaccurate that you'll be lucky to hit the paper at 100yrds LoL" or something similarly degrading to AK's..... That's the WHOLE ARGUMENT. Accuracy? Bench rest accuracy? Fuck them. I'm not worried about hitting a squirrel at 300yrds (.223 Energy at 300yrds is about that of a .45ACP at 50yrds.)

 

Cartridge (Wb + type) MV (fps) V @ 200 yds ME (ft lb) E @ 200 yds

7.62x39 (125 Sp) 2365 1783 1552 882

.223 Rem. (55 Sp) 3240 2304 1282 648

 

 

Also see: http://www.remington.com/products/ammuniti...*L762391*L308W4 for Ballistic comparison of .223 x39 and .308 rounds.

 

ALSO see:

 

Bullet Weight Softpoint MV 100 200 300 400 500 ME 100 200 300 400 500 Traj. 100 300 400 500

 

.223 REM 55 SP 3240 2747 2304 1905 1554 1270 1282 921 648 443 295 197 +1.6 -8.2 -26.1 -58.3

7.62x39 125 SP 2320 2046 1794 1583 1350 1156 1493 1161 893 678 505 371 +3.5 -14.8 -44.6 -94.6

 

 

I bolded the first MV and the 500 MV and ME to allow for ease of lining up. I got these numbers from http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ballistics/?...mp;x=15&y=7

 

So as you can see, the AR-15 Sucks. THE .223 SUCKS. and basically it's just all about having a Vietnam throwback and being AMERICA MADE WEAPS RULE LOL!

 

"Yay I r gots a .223 AR that jams and is accurate yay! You stupid AK users will never hit your target LOLZ! AR can keel at 1000yrds LOLZ Ak sucks and is so slow the bullet will bounces off a jacket at 100yrds LOLOLOLOL. I sniff my own farts and believe in Global Warming! I payed $1500 dollars for my .223 that shoots dime groups and jams every 50th round if i dont clean itz."

 

Having an AR is good if you live in an apartment because you can shoot it in your flat and not worry about hitting anyone on the other side of the wall. Too bad that feature makes it SUCK if you're fighting someone with an AK.

 

AR-15's and SucKS are in the same boat. Outclassed and overpriced by alot of things on the market. Maybe I'm an AK snob but, before I got my x39 I thought that AR's really had something going for them with that accuracy B.S. Truth is, at 500yrds my x39 should shoot 12-15" groups. Whoopty fucking do if your AR can shoot 5" groups at the same distance. I'm still Minute of Dirtbag and I'm still knocking his ass down or killing him.

 

/rant off

Edited November 21, 2007 by SaigaNoobie

[Zebra 0]

Stir away Zebra

 

Yes, the AR is a P.O.S.

 

I don't give a RATS ASS if you can shoot 1/4 MOA from a bench with your AR-15. The only person I've ever seen say that they've never had a problem with their AR even when they don't clean it is BOBASH and he has a fucking TROMIX AR-15. The stock Pieces of SHIT $1000.00 crap ass guns are going to jam on you and unless your enemy is out in the open, your nice accuracy isn't going to do SHIT. At 30 feet (10yrds) 1/4 MOA and 25 MOA are only 1.124 inches apart. Now you're going to say "Nuh uh! At 10yrds 25 MOA is 2.5" and the difference between that and .025" (basically hole-in-hole accuracy) is 2.475" LOLOL" but you AR-15 dipshits forget that if I have a 25 MOA gun shooting 2.5" groups at 10 yards that means it's only 1.124" radius so if we both center our groups at the same point, my 25 MOA rifle is shooting 1.124" to the left, right, high, or low of your laser beam accuracy. Ok so now that we're INSIDE an URBAN environment fighting, what matters more? Accuracy or firepower and reliability? What the fuck does it matter at that range? Plus a 25MOA AK can still shoot through a mud-brick wall and kill your AR wielding ass while your bullet laser will come out of the wall at a breezy "welt your bare skin" speed.

 

The AR isn't a bad platform, the underpowered .223 BLOWS for anything but open field shooting. So yes, the M-16 is a POS unless you spend enough to get a TROMIX or a fucking bad-ass gas-piston AR. Then you might have a gun that won't have the reliability issues of standard AR-15s. It only took the snobs 40 years to realize that gas blowback SUCKS and they needed a piston. Now they act like it's a brand new design and revolutionary..... SVD's have a spring loaded piston no? What a bunch of fucknuts AR-15 snobs are.

 

I see these guys with AR-15s for sale at gun shows $800-$2000. . . . So I ask them "What's the benefit to this over say an AK platform?" They always reply "Well AK's are so inaccurate that you'll be lucky to hit the paper at 100yrds LoL" or something similarly degrading to AK's..... That's the WHOLE ARGUMENT. Accuracy? Bench rest accuracy? Fuck them. I'm not worried about hitting a squirrel at 300yrds (.223 Energy at 300yrds is about that of a .45ACP at 50yrds.)

 

Cartridge (Wb + type) MV (fps) V @ 200 yds ME (ft lb) E @ 200 yds

7.62x39 (125 Sp) 2365 1783 1552 882

.223 Rem. (55 Sp) 3240 2304 1282 648

 

 

Also see: http://www.remington.com/products/ammuniti...*L762391*L308W4 for Ballistic comparison of .223 x39 and .308 rounds.

 

ALSO see:

 

Bullet Weight Softpoint MV 100 200 300 400 500 ME 100 200 300 400 500 Traj. 100 300 400 500

 

.223 REM 55 SP 3240 2747 2304 1905 1554 1270 1282 921 648 443 295 197 +1.6 -8.2 -26.1 -58.3

7.62x39 125 SP 2320 2046 1794 1583 1350 1156 1493 1161 893 678 505 371 +3.5 -14.8 -44.6 -94.6

 

 

I bolded the first MV and the 500 MV and ME to allow for ease of lining up. I got these numbers from http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ballistics/?...mp;x=15&y=7

 

So as you can see, the AR-15 Sucks. THE .223 SUCKS. and basically it's just all about having a Vietnam throwback and being AMERICA MADE WEAPS RULE LOL!

 

"Yay I r gots a .223 AR that jams and is accurate yay! You stupid AK users will never hit your target LOLZ! AR can keel at 1000yrds LOLZ Ak sucks and is so slow the bullet will bounces off a jacket at 100yrds LOLOLOLOL. I sniff my own farts and believe in Global Warming! I payed $1500 dollars for my .223 that shoots dime groups and jams every 50th round if i dont clean itz."

 

Having an AR is good if you live in an apartment because you can shoot it in your flat and not worry about hitting anyone on the other side of the wall. Too bad that feature makes it SUCK if you're fighting someone with an AK.

 

AR-15's and SucKS are in the same boat. Outclassed and overpriced by alot of things on the market. Maybe I'm an AK snob but, before I got my x39 I thought that AR's really had something going for them with that accuracy B.S. Truth is, at 500yrds my x39 should shoot 12-15" groups. Whoopty fucking do if your AR can shoot 5" groups at the same distance. I'm still Minute of Dirtbag and I'm still knocking his ass down or killing him.

 

/rant off

 

this is why i'm saving myself for the Robinson Armament XCR-M. all the XCR goodness on a .308 and beyond platform

[Motopilot1 37]

Saiga noobie i own a standard m1a and it is as accurate as hell. Its possible to get thoes groups but i agree that in its stock form its no sniper rifle and i sure as hell would not wager my life oin accuracy out to 500 yards if i wanted to be consistant at thoes yardages i would buy a bolt rifle what im saying is that if you want a semi auot 308 that has the best chances i think aside from buying a psg1 or a 5000$ rifle the standard is your best bet

[Motopilot1 37]

i have an ar but its more to complete the collection. i agree theres no way in hell i would use that damn thing if i had to go to war M1a and s12 xd45. are my weapons of choice i wish i could afford the robinson