Nailbomb 10,221 Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 I wanted to add a thumbhole stock to my saiga 12 and the guys at the ATF office and pistol license unit said it was a no go as it was considered a pistol grip So your saying its sporting enough for importation, while pistol grips arn't, but it is a pistol grip and is therefor illigal? Yup. OK to import with it on but considered a pistol grip for AW purposes. That's been a ruling since the beginning of the 'AW' Ban. I've only ever heard of 2 rulings that affected specific stocks. can you provide a source? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fxhart 14 Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 I wanted to add a thumbhole stock to my saiga 12 and the guys at the ATF office and pistol license unit said it was a no go as it was considered a pistol grip So your saying its sporting enough for importation, while pistol grips arn't, but it is a pistol grip and is therefor illigal? Yup. OK to import with it on but considered a pistol grip for AW purposes. That's been a ruling since the beginning of the 'AW' Ban. I've only ever heard of 2 rulings that affected specific stocks. can you provide a source? Here's one that I found. Not the site I originally found it on back in the day. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 I wanted to add a thumbhole stock to my saiga 12 and the guys at the ATF office and pistol license unit said it was a no go as it was considered a pistol grip So your saying its sporting enough for importation, while pistol grips arn't, but it is a pistol grip and is therefor illigal? Yup. OK to import with it on but considered a pistol grip for AW purposes. That's been a ruling since the beginning of the 'AW' Ban. I've only ever heard of 2 rulings that affected specific stocks. can you provide a source? Here's one that I found. Not the site I originally found it on back in the day. That ruling is in regards directly to 922r and not the AWB. How does this change the writing of the AWBs protruding pistol grip if at all and does this have a effect on state laws with thier own definitions? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 I wanted to add a thumbhole stock to my saiga 12 and the guys at the ATF office and pistol license unit said it was a no go as it was considered a pistol grip So your saying its sporting enough for importation, while pistol grips arn't, but it is a pistol grip and is therefor illigal? Yup. OK to import with it on but considered a pistol grip for AW purposes. That's been a ruling since the beginning of the 'AW' Ban. I've only ever heard of 2 rulings that affected specific stocks. can you provide a source? Here's one that I found. Not the site I originally found it on back in the day. That ruling is in regards directly to 922r and not the AWB. How does this change the writing of the AWBs protruding pistol grip if at all and does this have a effect on state laws with thier own definitions? I don't see anything regarding NY's AWB in there either. FWIW, although NY has kept pretty much a mirror of the Clinton ban, there have been slight changes to it, as far as NY is concerned. The ATF wouldn't be ruling on anything that specifically has to do with NY's AWB, as far as I know. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 That ruling is in regards directly to 922r and not the AWB. How does this change the writing of the AWBs protruding pistol grip if at all and does this have a effect on state laws with thier own definitions? I don't see anything regarding NY's AWB in there either. FWIW, although NY has kept pretty much a mirror of the Clinton ban, there have been slight changes to it, as far as NY is concerned. The ATF wouldn't be ruling on anything that specifically has to do with NY's AWB, as far as I know. Thats what i got out of it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jack4449 0 Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Is it legal in NY state (not NYC) to own a Norinco Mak 90? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 I call BS on the thumbhole counting as a pistol grip. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 I call BS on the thumbhole counting as a pistol grip. for 922r compliance parts count only. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunguy98 5 Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Is it legal in NY state (not NYC) to own a Norinco Mak 90? Yes it is, because it doesn't have any of the evil features of an "assault rifle". There are always a few at the local gunshops and gun shows here in WNY Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jack4449 0 Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 But according to the Assault Weapons Ban it seems that it is illegal as Norinco is mentioned by name: http://www.nysrpa.org/nygunlaws.htm the question is does it have to be possessed prior to sept 14 1994 or manufactured? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JK-47 33 Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 I just want an answer from someone in NY, On a Saiga 12, can you move your FCG and put on a pistol grip or are you stuck with a skelatinized stock? I have asked a few gunsmiths and seem to be getting contradictory advice. Any help would be appreciated. Nope. No pistol grip on a detachable mag fed shotgun in NY. I have yet to see anyone legally define a thumbhole stock or skeleton stock as a non pistol grip, so I'd personaly stay away from those also. The only way you could do this is if you rendered the detachable magazine into a fixed magazine. In California they use what's called a "bullet button", which hasn't actualy ever been ruled on but seems to conform to the spirit of the law. Anything that makes magazine changes require a tool should remove the deatachability of the magazine adaquately for legal purposes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 But according to the Assault Weapons Ban it seems that it is illegal as Norinco is mentioned by name: http://www.nysrpa.org/nygunlaws.htm the question is does it have to be possessed prior to sept 14 1994 or manufactured? I'm not sure. You have me wondering now, seeing as how "Norinco" is indeed on the list. I can tell you I have see people talk of owning them, and have posted pictures in Arfcom's NY/NJ Hometown Forum. So either they are good-to-go, or all the ones pictured/talked about are pre-ban. Personally, I wouldn't consider the "I've seen them in NY gunshops" theory to mean they are definitely legal. A Gander Mountain in NY had 30-round Remington 597 mags on the shelf (597's weren't even produced until around 1997 or so, and the 30 rounders didn't even come out until about 1 year or 2 ago. So that throws the whole "pre-ban" thing out the window). I've also read many stories about gunshops carrying non-NY-legal stuff. Probably partly due to the fact that an NY resident, given they are an LEO or the like, can own "evil" guns in NY. Also, partly due to ignorance of NY's AWB. I've read some doosies from what gunshop owners/employees (in NY) have told customers. For example; "You can only use pre-ban 10+ round mags in pre-ban guns." In California they use what's called a "bullet button", which hasn't actualy ever been ruled on but seems to conform to the spirit of the law. Anything that makes magazine changes require a tool should remove the deatachability of the magazine adaquately for legal purposes. That's the shitty thing about NY. "They" are so damn ambiguous with everything regarding NY's AWB. Unlike Cali, from what I understand, has pretty much everything in black-n-white. They say what is legal, and what is not. None of this guessing shit. I hate it. Like you said, the "bullet button" has never been ruled on in NY and is not noted in the AWB, so it's anyone's guess how it would hold up in court . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jack4449 0 Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 Well for sure the norinco's have to be preban to be in NY the question is do you have to have bought the gun prior to 1994 (i.e. be the original owner) to be legal or can you just buy ( say today) the norinco mak 90 made before 1994 to legal. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 I just want an answer from someone in NY, On a Saiga 12, can you move your FCG and put on a pistol grip or are you stuck with a skelatinized stock? I have asked a few gunsmiths and seem to be getting contradictory advice. Any help would be appreciated. Nope. No pistol grip on a detachable mag fed shotgun in NY. I have yet to see anyone legally define a thumbhole stock or skeleton stock as a non pistol grip, so I'd personaly stay away from those also. The only way you could do this is if you rendered the detachable magazine into a fixed magazine. In California they use what's called a "bullet button", which hasn't actualy ever been ruled on but seems to conform to the spirit of the law. Anything that makes magazine changes require a tool should remove the deatachability of the magazine adaquately for legal purposes. The state law has its own definition and clearly states a protruding pistol grip. Thumbhole stocks are perfectly legal for importation, as can be seen with many examples, they do however count as 2 parts for 922R purposes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 Well for sure the norinco's have to be preban to be in NY the question is do you have to have bought the gun prior to 1994 (i.e. be the original owner) to be legal or can you just buy ( say today) the norinco mak 90 made before 1994 to legal. I blieve this goes by the importation date, though i'm not positive. So don't quote me here. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JK-47 33 Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 I just want an answer from someone in NY, On a Saiga 12, can you move your FCG and put on a pistol grip or are you stuck with a skelatinized stock? I have asked a few gunsmiths and seem to be getting contradictory advice. Any help would be appreciated. Nope. No pistol grip on a detachable mag fed shotgun in NY. I have yet to see anyone legally define a thumbhole stock or skeleton stock as a non pistol grip, so I'd personaly stay away from those also. The only way you could do this is if you rendered the detachable magazine into a fixed magazine. In California they use what's called a "bullet button", which hasn't actualy ever been ruled on but seems to conform to the spirit of the law. Anything that makes magazine changes require a tool should remove the deatachability of the magazine adaquately for legal purposes. The state law has its own definition and clearly states a protruding pistol grip. Thumbhole stocks are perfectly legal for importation, as can be seen with many examples, they do however count as 2 parts for 922R purposes. Importation into the USA is one thing, and legality of said import into NYS are two different things. I've seen thumbhole saigas in NY, but never on a shotgun. The law as written doesn't strike me as being a clear definition, I'd rather play it safe then try to interpret just what "protruding" means in a court of law. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 Well for sure the norinco's have to be preban to be in NY the question is do you have to have bought the gun prior to 1994 (i.e. be the original owner) to be legal or can you just buy ( say today) the norinco mak 90 made before 1994 to legal. NYS doesn't say you have to have owned it prior to the 1994 ban. It just has to have been manufactured before then. Not that this is rock solid proof or anything, but.........over on Arfcom people are buying/selling pre-ban lowers (or even pre-ban AK's) ALL the time, just so they can have the "evil" goodies on it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 Importation into the USA is one thing, and legality of said import into NYS are two different things. I've seen thumbhole saigas in NY, but never on a shotgun. The law as written doesn't strike me as being a clear definition, I'd rather play it safe then try to interpret just what "protruding" means in a court of law. We're talking about importable configurations WHILE the federal AWB was in place. If it wern't for that we wouldn't have as many thumbhole stocks to choose from. Furthermore the AWB is LIGHTER on shotguns than on rifles. I can have a bayonette on my S-12, but not my 7.62x39. Also we are only allowed 10 round mags due to the wording of the law, while tube feds are limited to 8? this law was a poorly written joke. But thankfully it makes some definitions that help us when it comes to our S-12s Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jack4449 0 Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 (edited) Ok so as long as it is manufactured prior to sept 1994 you are ok. I read this article here: http://www.wbng.com/news/local/41720232.html and got worried. The cops might just be over zealous or don't know the AWB in NYS because they talk about possession prior to 1994 not manufacture. Edited July 19, 2009 by jack4449 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 Ok so as long as it is manufactured prior to sept 1994 you are ok. I read this article here: http://www.wbng.com/news/local/41720232.html and got worried. The cops might just be over zealous or don't know the AWB in NYS because they talk about possession prior to 1994 not manufacture. Oddly enough, police officers in NYS aren't good sources for info about the AWB. Go figure. Kind of like the recent NJ shoot-out. The Police Chief said the shotgun used by the perps was a gun that is "only meant to hunt men" and made it out to be some sort of full-auto shotgun/baby-killing machine. When in fact, it was a plain old pump shotty. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jack4449 0 Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 It is just terrible when people who are meant to uphold the law don't know the letter of the law, talk about being fit for your job. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 Where in NY are you at? We've got some other NY members here too. We need to put together a shoot sometime this year, while the weather is nice. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jack4449 0 Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 I am in Dutchess county, where are you? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 I am in Dutchess county, where are you? Broome County, Binghamton area. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
coolest68 0 Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 I am in Dutchess county, where are you? Broome County, Binghamton area. I am going out tomarrow and going to try and buy a Saiga 12, I live in long island ny... I would be intervested in a shoot also Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 <cough.Indy,whenareyougonnaletlallusnewyawkerslitteryourlandwithbrasssteelandp lasticshells.cough> Quote Link to post Share on other sites
veedubyaman 0 Posted September 11, 2010 Report Share Posted September 11, 2010 idk if this thread is still active but i was curious to ask if bullpups are legal in nys? bc i found a AK bullpup conversion kit that looks like some amount of fun to shoot!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted September 11, 2010 Report Share Posted September 11, 2010 (edited) idk if this thread is still active but i was curious to ask if bullpups are legal in nys? bc i found a AK bullpup conversion kit that looks like some amount of fun to shoot!! Bullpups are not illegal, themselves, in NY. So as long as it meets all federal and state regulations, you're good to go. EDIT: NYC may prohibit them, but it says you're in LI, so that doesn't really matter. Edited September 11, 2010 by -Shooter- Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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