Thumbhole stock

[NoQuota 0]

How hard would it be to modify this stock to fit a Saiga 12 ? And would it be legal in NY?

http://www.parts4ak47.com/ak-47_accessorie.../AK-020BPT.html

Edited August 31, 2008 by NoQuota

[gtnichols 51]

Great find, that is a cool stock I have never seen before.

Looks like it will fit a converted s12 with little adjustment, however it probably won't meet your 922r compliance

Naolith should know,...

 

 

 

How hard would it be to modify this stock to fit a Saiga 12 ?

http://www.parts4ak47.com/ak-47_accessorie.../AK-020BPT.html

Edited August 31, 2008 by Gas Giant

[nalioth 405]

Great find, that is a cool stock I have never seen before.

Looks like it will fit a converted s12 with little adjustment, however it probably won't meet your 922r compliance

Naolith should know,...

Foreign parts is foreign parts.

 

Should fit a converted Saiga just fine.

[NoQuota 0]

So is it not considered a "pistol grip" ?

[nalioth 405]

So is it not considered a "pistol grip" ?

Better to be safe and count it as a pistol grip.

 

There is no 'definite' answer (the revenu'rs contradict themselves regularly).

[ML Roak 0]

looks like it's for a milled receiver.

[nalioth 405]

looks like it's for a milled receiver.

 

Here ya go, then:

 

Item B-110

 

Available at Elk River Tool & Die, Houston, Texas

[NoQuota 0]

Okay, let me make my second question more specific. Would either of these stocks be considered a "pistol grip" and "illegal" in the state of New York ? This is how it is written in NYS

 

An "assault weapon" means (a) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following characteristics: (i) a folding or telescoping stock; (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; (iii) a bayonet mount; (iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; (v) a grenade launcher; or ( a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least two of the following characteristics: (i) a folding or telescoping stock; (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; (iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds; (iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine

 

I wish I could edit the title of this post, and add the question of legality in NYS, I think it would attract more attention.

[righttoown 0]

I like thumbhole stocks.

[waltham_41 52]

As stated above, best to count it as a pistol grip until proven otherwise. Call your regional BATF office and ask for an answer in writing. That way if someone ever tries to bust your butt, you can bring it out and show them.

[RDSWriter 5]

Under federal law a butthole stock on a rifle still has a pistol grip because a part of the stock functions as a 'pistol grip'. Under New York law... I do not know. Check with your local NY enforcement board. Although I do not like to give advice when I am uncertain of the legality, my GUESS on New York law is that an S12 with a thumbhole is allowed IF shotguns thumbholes are the same as rifle thumbholes because both the FN FS2000 and FN PS90 are legal to buy in New York state (outside of New York City). Now, I recommend - once again - that you consult local SOTs, RKIs... and if they do not have a WRITTEN answer from NY state, then submit an inquiry to the NY enforcement board as to the legality.

 

While not definitive for SHOTGUNS, I suspect that the BATF's stance on thumbhole Saiga shotguns is the same as Saiga rifles. So, 922r will always apply. The following is a letter to LESwartz posted on these Saiga Forums a couple years ago.

The text of the Tech Branch response letter is italicized below.

 

U.S. Department of Justice

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,

Firearms and Explosives

 

NOV 1, 2005

 

903050:ELG

3311/2005-663

 

Dear Mr. LESchwartz:

 

This refers to your letter, received by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), Firearms Technology Branch (FTB), September16, 2005, pertaining to a Saiga AK-type semiautomatic rifle. Specifically, you requested a clarification regarding modifications to Saiga rifles. Your letter was forwarded to FTB?s new location in Martinsburg, WV, for reply.

 

As you may be aware, the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), 18 U.S.C. ? 922?, prohibits assembly of certain semiautomatic rifles and shotguns from imported parts. The implementing regulations contained in 27 CFR ? 478.39 (formerly 1 78.39) include the stipulation that ?no person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of certain imported parts, if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under 18 U.S.C. ? 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.?

 

These parts are tabulated below:

 

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings.

(2) Barrels.

(3) Barrel extensions.

(4) Mounting blocks (trunnions).

(5) Muzzle attachments.

(6) Bolts.

(7) Bolt carriers.

( Operating rods.

(9) Gas pistons.

(10) Trigger housings.

(11) Triggers.

(12) Hammers.

(13) Sears.

(14) Disconnectors.

(15) Buttstocks.

(16) Pistol grips.

(17) Forearms, handguards.

(1 Magazine bodies.

(19) Followers.

(20) Floor plates.

 

Because certain AK-type semiautomatic rifles are currently prohibited from importation, the assembly of such rifles using more than 10 of the above imported parts is prohibited under ? 922?. However, assembly of AK-type semiautomatic rifles using 10 or fewer of these imported parts is not prohibited under this section.

 

With respect to the questions in your letter, we will answer them in the order they were posed, as follows:

 

Question 1: Would modifying a Saiga rifle by replacing the existing buttstock with a ?thumbhole style? stock result in a rifle prohibited from importation under Title 18 USC, Section 925(d)?

 

Answer: Yes. if your Saiga rifle is assembled using more than 10 of the imported parts in the above-cited 922?.

 

Question 2: With reference to the parts listed in Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 478 (formerly Part 178), section 478.39?: Is thumbhole style stock counted as a buttstock, as a ?pistol grip?, or both?

 

Answer: Both: The thumbhole stock about which you inquire is considered a combination of a pistol grip and a buttstock, therefore counting as two parts with reference to the parts listed in 27 CFR 478.39 (formerly 178.39?). Please note that the above answers are applicable to .223, 7.62x39mm, and .308 calibers.

 

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your questions.

 

Sincerely yours,

Sterling Nixon

 

----------------------------

Here is the original text and link to the actual images on the Net.

Prior Saiga Forum discussion

Edited September 1, 2008 by RDSWriter

[cwm108 0]

I have spoken with my local assistant district attorney (and gun enthusiast) and he is of the opinion that a thumb hole stock, even like the above is not a pistol grip and would be legal in NY. I am planning a conversion with pistol grip and a cheap wood dragonov style stock as backup to put on it for deer season...in case I run into NY DEC......