Buying a non 922r compliant firearm?

[aresv 49]

What is the legal situation if one were to buy a non-922r-compliant firearm? Obviously the seller is clearly in violation for possessing said firearm in the first place, but can he still sell it? I would assume (not a lawyer here, folks) that if the sale took place, the new owner would then be the Bad Guy in the eyes of the ATF. Does that mean the seller/old owner has washed his hands of it at that point?

 

Reason I ask is that a particular gun shop has some post-ban Norincos in aftermarket, non USA furniture. I can't field strip them to check the other countable parts, but assuming that the original configuration included a US stock set, then these guns may be short on the parts count. I am not about to bring this up with the gun shop owner, because what they display in their store is their own business, and it would be really stupid to get the ATF involved over an innocent oversight.

 

But are they safe to buy? Suppose I get it home, field strip it, count US parts, and golly gee whiz gosh darn it.... I find to my utmost surprise that it violates 922r (oh noes). Am I safe legally to then leave the gun disassembled and/or put it back together with enough US parts?

[nalioth 405]

Depending on when those Norincos were placed in aftermarket stocks, they may be grandfathered.

 

The law covers "manufacture", not possesion.

[aresv 49]

So once a firearm changes hands, assuming the 4473 and everything else goes through, the gun is OK regardless?

[nalioth 405]

So once a firearm changes hands, assuming the 4473 and everything else goes through, the gun is OK regardless?

"Possesion" is not mentioned in the 922r law, just 'manufacture'.

[WardenWolf 6]

Edited October 19, 2008 by Mike the Wolf

[aresv 49]

Not talking about SKS. These are post-ban NHM-90's with pistol grips. Every original NHM-90 I've seen has a thumbhole stock.

Evil features are: removable mag, pistol grip, muzzle device.

There is no visible US-made furniture.

[WardenWolf 6]

Don't go for it, then. You WILL be liable, and a rifle like this will attract a LOT of unwanted attention.

[aresv 49]

Thanks. Steering clear of 'em.

[nalioth 405]

Not advocating violating the law, but if the revenuers are looking at your for 922r violations, you've stepped off into deep doo-doo somewhere already.

 

All you have to do is bring the noncompliant rifle in to 922r compliance.

 

Just buying it isn't gonna make the alphabet gang drop out of the sky, beat your ass, shoot your dog, and throw you under the prison.

 

 

You guys obviously haven't been to the gun shows lately and seen all the hack-job Saiga conversions w/o any visible compliance parts.

 

 

If the price is good on your Chinee guns, go for it. You might be surprised and all that stuff is US made already.

[JK-47 33]

Here's an easy fix if the muzzle device is permanently attached: before you complete the transaction take a screwdriver and remove the pistol grip. You can always add it back on once compliant. If the muzzle is threaded w/o permanent attachment you may be outta luck unless the shop still has the original thumbhole that you can put back on/ either that or bring compliant parts with you.

[WardenWolf 6]

Wonder if BATF considers red Loctite a "permanent" attachment. It basically is. It's a hell of a lot more permanent than some of the supposedly permanent methods like pinning.

Edited October 19, 2008 by Mike the Wolf

[frick 3]

Loctite can be destroyed with heat, 400 degrees or so for the red, and silver soldering can be melted.

 

Permanent, usually means welded, or pinned and welded in the case of fake cans where you don't want visible welds.

 

Also, why wouldn't this dealer let you look inside?

 

I have field stripped old Garands for a look see many times.

 

Frankly, I would ask them first if they are compliant, if they play dumb, offer to check for them, if they claim they are compliant and you get home, you have at least a bona fide reason to return the firearm, or, a case to take to the po po, or the BATF.

 

Does any legitimate dealer actually want that?

 

If they don't give a crap either way, then they shouldn't be licensed to sell firearms.

Edited October 19, 2008 by frick

[nalioth 405]

Loctite can be destroyed with heat, 400 degrees or so for the red, and silver soldering can be melted.

 

Permanent, usually means welded, or pinned and welded in the case of fake cans where you don't want visible welds.

The four approved methods for "permanent muzzle attachment" are:

 

1) spot welds at the cardinal points

 

2) continuous weld at least 50% of the diameter

 

3) blind pinning

 

4) high temperature silver soldering

 

 

 

These only need to be used when your barrel is shorter than legal length, and you are using a muzzle device to bring it out to legal length.

[WardenWolf 6]

There's basically 2 levels of non-compliance: blatant obvious non-compliance and non-obvious, something that would require you to disassemble the gun for a full parts count to find out for certain. It's mostly the guns in the former category that will get you into trouble. Not advocating breaking the law, but just saying. If it's set up in a very blatantly out-of-compliance configuration, you're just asking for some power tripping cop or a wandering ATF agent to confiscate it. Even if it was taken illegally (such as by a cop without a warrant), you won't get it back.

[aresv 49]

If the price is good on your Chinee guns, go for it. You might be surprised and all that stuff is US made already.

 

The price was darn good, actually!

 

The bluing is deep and mirror perfect. Bore is hard chromed with sharp rifling. Score!

 

 

I shuffled some parts around and now it's legal, but sort of dumb looking with a Tapco shovel handle buttstock and galil forearm that I happened to have laying around. Gonna drop a compliant piston and FCG in there, then try to get some proper blond wood back on her.

 

Thanks for the advice, y'all. I spent some tense moments worrying, adding up parts counts, but it all worked out in the end!

[frick 3]

Out of curiosity, how do you test the difference between a high temp silver solder, and a low temp, unless you test it via heating, possibly damaging the finish?

 

Wouldn't a blind pin be easier and more permanent? If the muzzle device was aluminum, like some of the fake cans are, you would have no other choice.

 

Welds are visible, a blind pin usually leaves some evidence of a weld, but a silver solder could be mistaken for nothing or just loctite.

 

Just my fears of putting the gun into a potentially oppressive ATF tech. "Hey, while its here, lets try some of that soft primered ammo, and see if we can get it to double tap", and now, you also have a machine gun.

 

Better to never leave any doubt.

[nalioth 405]

Out of curiosity, how do you test the difference between a high temp silver solder, and a low temp, unless you test it via heating, possibly damaging the finish?

 

Wouldn't a blind pin be easier and more permanent? If the muzzle device was aluminum, like some of the fake cans are, you would have no other choice.

 

Welds are visible, a blind pin usually leaves some evidence of a weld, but a silver solder could be mistaken for nothing or just loctite.

 

Just my fears of putting the gun into a potentially oppressive ATF tech. "Hey, while its here, lets try some of that soft primered ammo, and see if we can get it to double tap", and now, you also have a machine gun.

 

Better to never leave any doubt.

The four methods come from the ATF themselves.

 

1400 degree silver solder is not going to allow your muzzle device to be removed with common instruments.

 

And, yes, when you apply high temp silver solder, it does screw the finish really good at that end of things. That's why you do it with a heat sink as close to the area you are working on as you can get it while you apply the solder.

 

You'll still be refinishing the muzzle device and any barrel not protected by the heat sink.

[WardenWolf 6]

If the price is good on your Chinee guns, go for it. You might be surprised and all that stuff is US made already.

 

The price was darn good, actually!

 

The bluing is deep and mirror perfect. Bore is hard chromed with sharp rifling. Score!

 

 

I shuffled some parts around and now it's legal, but sort of dumb looking with a Tapco shovel handle buttstock and galil forearm that I happened to have laying around. Gonna drop a compliant piston and FCG in there, then try to get some proper blond wood back on her.

 

Thanks for the advice, y'all. I spent some tense moments worrying, adding up parts counts, but it all worked out in the end!

 

Nice work. I think you made a good choice. Buying it and then promptly making it compliant will keep you out of trouble. Most people don't have parts like that just lying around, so this is normally not an option.

[aresv 49]

Nice work. I think you made a good choice. Buying it and then promptly making it compliant will keep you out of trouble. Most people don't have parts like that just lying around, so this is normally not an option.

 

Saigaholic... what can i say

[WardenWolf 6]

One of the good ways to get rid of a foreign part is to pick up a US-made ergo-grip for the gun. That will make the grip more comfortable while helping you keep it legal. Good investment.