Elkhound 91 Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 I am ready for my shipment. I know you are moving to the new shop and are busy. However, I am ready for my order. By our last correspondence, you said the end of this week looked promising. I am ready for a promised delivery date in the next few days. WJ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Delta 5.56 0 Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 Dirty laundry anyone? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 WJ has been very patient and continues to be civil. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Delta 5.56 0 Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 WJ has been very patient and continues to be civil. good enough. my bad. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
E-TAC 47 Posted November 1, 2008 Report Share Posted November 1, 2008 WJ Your items have been pushed back till next week. I have to get out a Krink S12 to a member of my unit that is on his way to Iraq. He allowed you to bump his order the last time. Aloha Esteban Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jbourne66 0 Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 (edited) Sorry WJ, but we (my business partner and I) sent our guns out about twice as long ago as you (Feb-Mar) and still haven't gotten them back so if you get yours back before us then the waiting game is gonna come to a screaching halt and some legal action is going to have to be taken. Patience is one thing but if you are only 4 months out and we are 8 and yours come back first then there is a REAL BIG PROBLEM. Good luck to all though in getting their S12s back. Running low on patience.... jbourne66@aol.com Edited November 2, 2008 by jbourne66 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrance@iacwds.com 716 Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 (edited) What happened to UKgunfighter's post here and in the E-tac section? I believe that was his screen name and he had $5,800 (pre-paid) still tied up waiting on Esteban to sell his custom made English style S-12's (for which there is no market) before getting a refund because Jammer missed the promised delivery date and the poor guy lost his shirt on pre-paid competition expenses he had lost. Bob Ash responded and it was posted on the Saiga S-12 Board as well as the E-tac board so it wouldn't disappear. I don't think I have lost my mind but that is always a possibility. 1911 Edited November 2, 2008 by 1911 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfighteruk 6 Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 What happened to UKgunfighter's post here and in the E-tac section? I believe that was his screen name and he had $5,800 (pre-paid) still tied up waiting on Esteban to sell his custom made English style S-12's (for which there is no market) before getting a refund because Jammer missed the promised delivery date and the poor guy lost his shirt on pre-paid competition expeses he had lost. Bob Ash responded and it was posted on the Saiga S-12 Board as well as the E-tac board so it wouldn't disappear. I don't think I have lost my mind but that is always a possibility. 1911 1911 its been " removed" by Etac ...... but i reposted here ! http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=30392 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Elkhound 91 Posted November 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 (edited) Sorry WJ, but we (my business partner and I) sent our guns out about twice as long ago as you (Feb-Mar) and still haven't gotten them back so if you get yours back before us then the waiting game is gonna come to a screaching halt and some legal action is going to have to be taken. Patience is one thing but if you are only 4 months out and we are 8 and yours come back first then there is a REAL BIG PROBLEM. Good luck to all though in getting their S12s back. Running low on patience.... jbourne66@aol.com jbourne66: I do not wish to engage anyone in a "who is right, who is wrong" colloquy on this board regarding E-TAC orders. However, please note that I am not jumping anyone in line. Rather, my second order was placed with the explicit instruction that it was contingent upon being filled in 1 month. So, clearly, a business can accept a new order under any terms it wishes. I suspect that Esteban made that deal with me fully expecting that the older orders would long since be completed. At the time the second order was placed his delay was irrelevant to my deal because I should be able to rely on his agreement to meet the terms of my deal. He contracted to do a build with me in a month, he was taking (or should be taking) into account all variables. I specifically wanted the build in a month given the previously delays we have all experienced. Also, one of the two guns in my second order involves one of Esteban's personal guns, therefore, it should require, I suspect, significantly less work to finalize than might otherwise have been necessary. Of course, that month has long since passed. Just understand that the terms of my agreement were made without any thought of "screwing" any other customer or board member, rather, just to attempt to be as advantageous to me as possible. Also, I, too, had an order from February 9th, so I certainly understand your frustration. I doubt that I need to tell you the expenses and difficulties of litigating in a distant judicial forum. I do not want my orders tied up by you, or anyone else, via any legal remedy which impairs my rights. Fight any fight you wish, if you feel compelled to do so. However, it is my suggestion and request that you keep it between you, your partner and E-TAC. Don't tie up the builds or resources of other customers with an over-broad request for injunctive relief. Just protect yourself, but don't impair others. Let us all try to avoid stepping on each others' toes while we wait in frustration. The last thing we need to do is get the customers fighting with each other! WJ Edited November 2, 2008 by WarriorJudge Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jbourne66 0 Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 No offense taken, just venting as others have been doing recently on this board. The recent increase in complaints regarding communication and customer service with ETAC is disturbing. As for you agreement with him, that's your privity of contract not mine and while I mentioned it I am not concerned about "line jumping". WHAT CONCERNS me is that like many others on this board, our FFL registered semi automatic shotguns (original purchase through FFL when bought new) were sent to an FFL manufacturer and he charged our credit cards/cashed money orders (if applicable) and the worst communication as of lately in respect to completion dates. Mike at MD would send out emails constantly. Will at Red Jacket was available by phone. ETAC is MIA most of the time per recent postings. If COMMRADE OBAMA gets in, The Godless Communist Basard he is it is only a matter of time befoe he exercises an Executive Order and among those includes Saiga 12s as Destructive Devices (ala Streetsweepers). These guns may never come back and in the meantime we don't know where they are (I am tired of the "barrel shortening process" reply that occassionally gets posted) At what point in time are these guns to be considered "stolen"? Legitimately many states including our Peoples Republic of Connecticut have passed laws that make it a felony not to report a stolen firearm within 24 hours discovery. My gun's been gone approximately NINE MONTHS (9). My order was for a Krink conversion with an extension soldered on. NO FINISH applied. That's correct, ETAC was just to shorten the gas system, convert the trigger assembly and put on some G3 sights that I sent him. No paint of finish applied. You're telling me that takes over NINE MONTHS? Hell, I think it is entirely reasonable to be concerned that this firearm, obviously not in my possession could possibly have been misappropriated and when is the right time to contact the Police and/or ATF and report it so? I DID NOT DO THAT, repeat I HAVE NOT DONE THAT, but I think it is a legitimate concern and reasonable action if these rifles do not come back in the time period that a manufacutrer indicates when you send it to him. If you sent your gun in for work and the turn around was one month and you are now at four and there's no response to your inquiry, I'd be right at the Federal Building on Monday to make a complaint. Hell if just to cover my own ass on liability. My 2 cents. FUTURE P.O.W. of The Obama Occupation! Sorry WJ, but we (my business partner and I) sent our guns out about twice as long ago as you (Feb-Mar) and still haven't gotten them back so if you get yours back before us then the waiting game is gonna come to a screaching halt and some legal action is going to have to be taken. Patience is one thing but if you are only 4 months out and we are 8 and yours come back first then there is a REAL BIG PROBLEM. Good luck to all though in getting their S12s back. Running low on patience.... jbourne66@aol.com jbourne66: I do not wish to engage anyone in a "who is right, who is wrong" colloquy on this board regard E-TAC orders. However, please note that I am not jumping anyone in line. Rather, my second order was placed with the explicit instruction that it was contingent upon being filled in 1 month. So, clearly, a business can accept a new order under any terms it wishes. I suspect that Esteban made that deal with me fully expecting that the older orders would long since be completed. At the time the second order was placed his delay was irrelevant to my deal because I should be able to rely on his agreement to meet the terms of my deal. He contracted to do a build with me in a month, he was taking (or should be taking) into account all variables. I specifically wanted the build in a month given the previously delays we have all experienced. Also, one of the two guns in my second order involves one of Esteban's personal guns, therefore, it should require, I suspect, significantly less work to finalize than might otherwise have been necessary. Of course, that month has long since passed. Just understand that the terms of my agreement were made without any thought of "screwing" any other customer or board member, rather, just to attempt to be as advantageous to me as possible. Also, I, too, had an order from February 9th, so I certainly understand your frustration. I doubt that I need to tell you the expenses and difficulties of litigating in a distant judicial forum. I do not want my orders tied up by you, or anyone else, via any legal remedy which impairs my rights. Fight any fight you wish, if you feel compelled to do so. However, it is my suggestion and request that you keep it between you, your partner and E-TAC. Don't tie up the builds or resources of other customers with an over-broad request for injunctive relief. Just protect yourself, but don't impair others. Let us all try to avoid stepping on each others' toes while we wait in frustration. The last thing we need to do is get the customers fighting with each other! WJ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigj480 203 Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 It's sad to see that it has come to this and so many people are upset. I'm not going to comment much in this issue, even though I have two guns a E-TAC(don't want to piss anybody off), but I can see things getting worse before they get better. I fully expect some people to be waiting over a year before they get their gun, I hope I'm pleasantly surprised. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Elkhound 91 Posted November 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 Venting is good. I fully support venting. I don't think any of the customers are mad at each other; just frustrated in general. We are all in the same boat. I have suggested, repeatedly, a monthly up-date of all build orders. There must be some problem to implementing this, as it does not get done. However, if the list is posted the first day of the month and I'm, say, number 132, and there are twelve guns ahead of me, I know where I stand. Next month, if there are three guns ahead of me, I know where I stand. If no guns went out that month, then there should be an explanation as to why. This list would also give potential customers a way to gauge how long their build might take if they decide to use E-TAC. Simple, easy, understandable. ----- It must make too much sense! WJ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ck43001 12 Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 Mike at MD would send out emails constantly. Oh my! Someone is quite new to the game and doesn't remember all the Mike Davidson hatefests that used to go on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ck43001 12 Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 At what point in time are these guns to be considered "stolen"? Hey, you're in luck! Esteban saw your comments about how you think he "stole" your guns, so I think he's canceling your order and refunding your money. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfighteruk 6 Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 (edited) UPDATE : just got a FULL REFUND I wish the rest of you waiting customers a speedy end to your wait. Edited November 2, 2008 by gunfighteruk Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jbourne66 0 Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 (edited) Hey, just so I'M Clear, I AM NOT ASKING FOR A REFUND. I will wait as long as it takes, just believe its an honest request to ask how long we are supposed to wait. If it's a year and a half wait, then sure, that's fine I'll wait. But at least the customer knows how long to wait. When the quoted time is not given, or adhered to as people are complaining about I think it's a legitimate gripe. I love Estabahns work, I drool over the pictures of the projects he's finished. It's just tough to wait when there seems to be a problem stirring as more and more people are beginning to complain and with the economy slowing it makes you wonder about the completion of the work in process. Perhaps Congress can give the gun business a bailout? I bet a couple of mil could help speed things up at ETAC! As for your comment, CK43001 that's not funny! I also don't know how you'd put a gun back together as if it was never started and then a refund (Which I'm not asking for BTW). You're a killjoy with that comment! I hope (and not the Commie Obama type of hope) that all get their guns back and love them as much as those who have. Moral is just a little low with the way things are looking and I'd feel better going into the new year with my Saiga in hand should the Messiah get sworn in. That being said.. God speed on completing these thing Estaban and Aloha, may your cafe' stock nothing but expresso and you have insomnia and have to work! I guess I'll load my MD arms drum over and over again while I wait......... :-) Edited November 2, 2008 by jbourne66 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macgyverhk 3 Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 (edited) MD Arms, Ltd went through a similar period when he was so busy that he had no time to respond to his customers concerns, questions... However, when Mike D. finally did get an opportunity to respond, the fires were put out, patience was restored, and with the vast majority of waiting customers, trust was re-established. It all ended well and was well worth the wait for all. Esteban comes recommended by Tony Tromix and I doubt Tony would put his reputation on the line for someone he doesn't believe in. Being a long time saiga and Tromix fan as well as the other merchants on here, I have seen many a start up company experience similar delays and complaints made against them. It is probably par for the course. It takes a lot of time to build a company, stay on top of the administrative work and try to produce a quality product from scratch. I know... I am doing that very thing myself. Funny thing is, the most common complaint against small businesses is lack of communication not poor quality. For example, an attorney may be the top in his profession, do great for his clients but still be disbarred for not responding to his clients in a timely manner. The reason for such a strict punishment is the tremendous effect lack of communication has on anxious clients and the ease in which such an effect can be provented ie: merely writting a short message or calling back a client. But as a small business owner myself, I know how hard that mere phone call can be to make with so little time. The gunsmith industry is no different, but it doesn't have the oversight such as the legal profession does. It only has forums like these and the members whom speak up about their concerns. That being said, there are many clients whom have concerns and rightfully so, especially in light of the daunting political changes possibly taking place in Washington. They want there guns back or in the least, they want to know when to expect them back. I wish E-Tac well and hope and expect he will restore faith in his company by reasuring his concerned clients. I for one will continue to wait patiently with little more than a short communicae on my build and the expected completion date. Should he not be able to complete the project by that date certain, then a short explaination and a another date. Easy as pie, maybe? Note to Esteban: Good luck on your new workshop, I hope to hear from you shortly. I continue to believe in your ability to send me back an impressive custom Saiga. Edited November 3, 2008 by macgyverhk Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrance@iacwds.com 716 Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 UPDATE : just got a FULL REFUND I wish the rest of you waiting customers a speedy end to your wait. Congratulations gunfighterUK. It seems to me as though if Esteban/Jammer/E-tac has dealt with you to your satistaction in a foreign country, then I am done with this topic. Good luck Jammer as you try to build your business and deal with growth pains. We have seen them before and it is to your credit that this gentleman was made whole (as regards your responsibility). Best of luck. 1911 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigj480 203 Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 MD Arms, Ltd went through a similar period when he was so busy that he had no time to respond to his customers concerns, questions... However, when Mike D. finally did get an opportunity to respond, the fires were put out, patience was restored, and with the vast majority of waiting customers, trust was re-established. It all ended well and was well worth the wait for all. Esteban comes recommended by Tony Tromix and I doubt Tony would put his reputation on the line for someone he doesn't believe in. There should have been a lesson learned with the whole drum situation and people should know that they will almost certainly get their guns. Once he gets completely situated in his new shop, I expect things pick up nicely. Just like with the drums, when a great product is finally delivered, the negativity will likely get drowned out. I've got until the ban, I'll wait patiently until then. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 ... the most common complaint against small businesses is lack of communication not poor quality. All too true. Although Tony has famously long lead times for his work, complaints are down to nearly zero. Why? 1) Tony doesn't charge your card until he's ACTUALLY READY TO BUILD YOUR GUN. SO by the time you get charged to the time you get shipping confirmation to the time the brown truck pulls up outside is usually under a week. 2) Realistic, nay, Conservative delivery estimates. When figuring the lead times, Tony calculates one gun per day. Now, I've personally seen him do 7 or 8 in a day, maybe more. Then some guys drop out when it comes time to pay. The result is: you will get your gun on or before the promised date, and your money will only be out a very few days in all. Everybody ends up happy. I post this only as a public service to those smaller companies that may be able to glean some small bit of advice from a THRIVING BUSINESS MODEL. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ck43001 12 Posted November 4, 2008 Report Share Posted November 4, 2008 To all of Esteban's customers who have been "venting" and stirring up shit, you guys need to email him as soon as possible. He's trying to get your guns back to you as fast as he can, in his current situation, but if you're this unhappy, he wants to talk to you about canceling your order and refunding your money. You're obviously not happy with him, and he's not happy with the way some of you have been acting. So, it may be for the best. He rather cancel your order and refund your money, so he can concentrate on his customers who've been waiting patiently. I understand some of you spoke with him over the phone the past couple days, I don't believe there's any change in your current agreements. jbourne66: You *really* need to contact him asap if you still want your guns finished. He didn't take kindly to your implying that he may have stole your guns and I believe your orders are still marked to be canceled. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macgyverhk 3 Posted November 4, 2008 Report Share Posted November 4, 2008 (edited) jbourne66 has been a bit high strung as of late and his wife just had a baby boy today. Probably explains it. That and election tommorrow. I'm sure jbourne66 doesn't want to cancel his order. If you read his last post above I believe it says that clearly. Like I said, Note to Esteban: Good luck on your new workshop, I hope to hear from you shortly. I continue to believe in your ability to send me back an impressive custom Saiga. I'm sure the same goes for jbourne66 BOBASH makes a good point and it is probably because of the payment upfront that creates the expectation of regular open communication, I know it is something I have to deal with in my business as well. Quite a pain to deal with I agree. I don't think anyone is saying ESTEBAN is anything less than an artist with what he creates. CK43001: I'm sure you have known Esteban for quite a while and can attest to his abilities and professionalism. The same goes for jbourne66, I have known him for a long time. Like Esteban, Jbourne66 simply does not have the time to contact him now since he's in the hospital with his wife but he texted me that he still wants it. I admit, I too was concerned, having only heard of Esteban last year and sent out my gun and cash on a hope and a prayer half way around the world. It wasn't till a member here AKGUY, or something like that, broke his silence, that us clients knew that others here had 18 year relationships with Esteban and other respected contributors are willing to vouch for E-TAC. I think it probably did more good than harm for ESTEBAN and has helped many more clients who had been anxiously waiting "patiently" to feel comforted with their transaction. According to the Research firm TARP, " for every person who complains, there are 26 who do not' That means if 10 customers complain, another 260 may have quietly dumped you, never to call again. To know what customers are thinking, ask them." http://www.creatingcustomerevangelists.com...ht_the_fear.asp Its simply an unaviodable part of business. Once again, I wish all of the contributors here well and thank you for this site. CC: ESTEBAN Edited November 5, 2008 by macgyverhk Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted November 4, 2008 Report Share Posted November 4, 2008 I do want to add that I know Esteban's work to be top-notch and I hope he can get this situation turned around. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macgyverhk 3 Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 (edited) Still hoping "he can get this situation turned around." Edited December 3, 2008 by macgyverhk Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aubie515 2 Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Not to start more trouble, but I'd like to know where all the members who jumped on board to defend Jammer are at now? I recall people defending him and not giving the OP the opportunity to present their side of the story. I'm sure Jammer did offer excellent products in the past, but it's the present that matters. People need to put things into perspective when it comes to business. If you (Jammer) make a promise to your customer...you need to honor your commitement to the customer. The customer paid you in good faith, so why not go out of your way to take care of your customer? I have never had any dealings with Jammer, so I have no axe to grind with him. I just seen other members on other forums go through the same situation. A company with good reputation going down hill...due to not being able to keep up with demand. I hope that E tac gets his act together for the sake of his business. You can only make so many empty promises before someone starts contacting their AG. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macgyverhk 3 Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 (edited) - Edited December 12, 2008 by macgyverhk Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 Posting personal emails or PMs on an open forum is not cool. I'm not even going to read them. I think that stinks. No matter how angry you are about your business with E Tac, you do not have a right to hang out your dirty laundry here on our forum. I hope that you will take it back down yourself, before the staff has to step in and do it for you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ck43001 12 Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 "Craig" then warns my friend to get me under control I guess because I posted that I had yet to get an update. Perhaps because I said I was still hoping E-TAC would straiten things out. If you're going to quote something I did, at least get it right. I've had some casual pm exchanges with Matt, so I asked Matt to see if he can get you to chill because you've been sending me multiple copies of the same email day after day. I told Matt that I didn't get back to you or him because I was awaiting word from Esteban myself. And, if you wanted to keep sending me copies of the same email day after day, I'd leave it for Esteban to figure out and take care of. You're also mistaken when you said I'm running the front-end. Technically, me and Larry are going to be running the front-end and Esteban will be phased to the design/production side. But, this was supposed to kick in after the expansion. The expansion isn't completed yet, and the help we're doing for Esteban now is basically that; trying to help him get things in order. You're upset about how Esteban handled your order to-date, and you have every right to be, but if you're going to bitch about something *I* did, at least get it right. Craig P.S. As far as I heard from Gunfighteruk, he did receive his money, so you're wrong there. I wonder what else you could be wrong about? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bitterbatter 0 Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 Hell id be happy to order a gun from etac once things slow down a bit for them Since i know ill be getting my next tromix in 1-2 years again (so worth the wait) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jbourne66 0 Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 Gotta chime back in as I just made an inquiry directly to Esteban to address these problems that are apparently arrising from a highly recommended vendor. He simply replied that he was in the process of incorporating and couldn't help us for the next 2 months. As an attorney I can tell you that is crap. Doesn't take 2 months nor would it in any way effect the completion of ours and any others guns that are outstanding for approximately 8 months. He offered to refund the guns and money. I have inquired what condition they are in since we have been told, as many have that they are "in the barrel shortening process". Well if they are untouched to date then ETAC has lied to everybody he has told has a gun in the barrel shortening process. What then can be assumed he has been doing with guns and spent money for 8 months, both of which he says he can't comment again on for another 2 months? Simply unacceptable and unprofessional. This is a public business and the customer service is horrible at this point. We have demanded the completion of our guns as that is what we have contracted for. Nothing more, nothing less. He was sent Saiga 12s and HK sights. Just put them on and do the work. Again I state that these projects were not contracted for a complete refinishing either, just a mod and shortening with sights. Something else is going on here. Does anyone have any insight into what could have made a reputable merchant develop these problems? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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