Nailbomb 10,221 Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 OK, now lets see if i got my history right, and my knowledge of draconian laws together so i can do this right... Ok, now if i'm right while the AWB was in effect specific thumbhole stocks were deemed pistol grips despite being attached to the buttstock and being one piece they were said to be considered 2. I've never quite been able to figure all of this out, becaws from what i've seen the feds keep changing thier mind... Now to my knowledge they never made a complete blanket statement about thumbhole stocks, i would figure they would be less popular if they did. But as it stands you can go to dicks or any other sporting goods store and still pick up weapons with thumbhole stocks. So for my conversion i was planing on using this stock. http://www.globaltrades.com/ak_stocks.html Marked B-110 on the list. But have been having afterthoughts on using it after further research has only confused me more, LOL. I'm currently considering picking up a SLR-95 synthetic stock. These have suppressors on them, and were imported during the ban, so i would assume this stock has been deemed not a pistol grip? I've been told they are a little funky, where the stock i already have for the conversion would be quite comfortable, but if installing the SLR-95 stock will keep me out of a potential grey area in NYS law, it might be worth it. Plus as a added bonus, it should have a certain amount of unique-ness for moding the milled reciever stock onto the stamped saiga reciever. Can I get some 2nd opinions? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
numbnuts 1 Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 I'm in the same boat too (NY state).......What about R-427? That looks like a nice "thumbhole" stock also...... Or the RAA skeletonized stock? I like it better than B-110. Just my 2 cents (humble 2 cents)....Nummy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bshoop13 0 Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 I live in ny and was wondering the same thing. i want to buy a saiga 12 but i havent yet because i was unsure about the laws with a conversion. i have heard that there were a couple people in ny that use thumbhole stock on their saiga 12 but it was in that grey area. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted December 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 I'm in the same boat too (NY state).......What about R-427? That looks like a nice "thumbhole" stock also...... Or the RAA skeletonized stock? I like it better than B-110. Just my 2 cents (humble 2 cents)....Nummy Nah, Someday i'll get a PSL or something and i'll have that style on that one. The RAA wouldn't even require moving the trigger group. I'm definitly moving the trigger group. The Tapco G2 trigger group, and krebs trigger pin retaining plate are already in my possesion. I'm just waiting on the tromix DIY trigger guard really. I already have the B-110 stock in my possesion, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings to use it on another rifle in the future. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 R-427 stocks SUCK on a saiga converted, unless you have 8 inch long fingers... your length from the grip to the trigger is huge with those stocks... ask me how I know... MY VERY FIRST Saiga was converted and I used that stock... I THOUGHT it was nice... but that was more because the balance was shifted and the gun handled better... but the reach to the trigger still sucked... This is straight from the penal code... about halfway down the page... http://wings.buffalo.edu/law/bclc/web/NewYork/ny3%28b%29.htm 22. "Assault weapon" means (a) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following characteristics: (i) a folding or telescoping stock; (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; (iii) a bayonet mount; (iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; (v) a grenade launcher; or ( a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least two of the following characteristics: (i) a folding or telescoping stock; (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; (iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds; (iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine; (e) provided, however, that such term does not include: (i) any rifle, shotgun or pistol that (A) is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever, slide action; ( has been rendered permanently inoperable; or © is an antique firearm as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921 (a)(16); (ii) a semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that bolds more than five rounds of ammunition; (iii) a semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds of ammunition in a fixed of detachable magazine; (iv) a rifle, shotgun or pistol, of a replica or a duplicate thereof, specified in Appendix A to section 922 of 18 U.S.C. as such weapon was manufactured on October first, nineteen hundred ninety-three. The mere fact that a weapon is not listed in Appendix A shall not be construed to mean that such weapon is an assault weapon; or (v) a semiautomatic rifle, a semiautomatic shotgun or a semiautomatic pistol or any of the weapons defined in paragraph (d) of this subdivision lawfully possessed prior to September fourteenth, nineteen hundred ninety-four. 23. "Large capacity ammunition feeding device" means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device, manufactured after September thirteenth, nineteen hundred ninety-four, that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition; provided, however, that such term does not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition. ] NOTE... NO WHERE DOES IT SAY YOU "CANNOT HAVE" A THUMBHOLE STOCK! but who is to judge whether they will claim a thumbhole is a pistol grip?!?!? They SELL THUMBHOLE STOCKS on tube fed shotguns all the time in NY state... ALSO... Section 265.02 Criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree when: (1) Such person commits the crime of criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree as defined in subdivision one, two, three or five of section 265.01, and has been previously convicted of any crime; or (2) Such person possesses any explosive or incendiary bomb, bombshell, firearm silencer, machine-gun or any other firearm or weapon simulating a machine-gun and which is adaptable for such use; or (3) Such person knowingly possesses a machine-gun, firearm, rifle or shotgun which has been defaced for the purpose of concealment or prevention of the detection of a crime or misrepresenting the identity of such machine-gun, firearm, rifle or shotgun; or (4) Such person possesses any loaded firearm. Such possession shall not, except as provided in subdivision one or seven, constitute a violation of this section if such possession takes place in such person's home or place of business; or (5) (i) Such person possesses three or more firearms; or (ii) such person possesses a firearm and has been previously convicted of a felony or a class A misdemeanor defined in this chapter within the five years immediately preceding the commission of the offense and such possession did not take place in the person's home or place of business; or (6) Such person knowingly possesses any disguised gun; or (7) Such person possesses an assault weapon; or (8) Such person possesses a large capacity ammunition feeding device. Criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree is a class D felony. Section 265.03 Criminal possession of a weapon in the second degree A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the second degree when: (1) with intent to use the same unlawfully against another, such person: (a) possesses a machine-gun; or ( possesses a loaded firearm; or © possesses a disguised gun; or (2) such person possesses five or more firearms. Criminal possession of a weapon in the second degree is a class C felony. Section 265.04 Criminal possession of a dangerous weapon in the first degree A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the first degree when such person: (1) possesses any explosive substance with intent to use the same unlawfully against the person or property of another; or (2) possesses ten or more firearms. Criminal possession of a weapon in the first degree is a class B felony. Mind you... if you are going to the shooting range with several guns in the vehicle... you will probably have no problems... but if you are robbing the local walmart and have three guns on your person, then they are going to stick you with this... I have talked to the state police and DEC, and both corroborate this line of reasoning... They say it is open to the discrimination of the officer on the scene of the issue. BUT... ON THE HAPPIER SIDE of NYS penal code... THIS is always interesting to know... Section 265.20 Exemptions a. Sections 265.01, 265.02, 265.03, 265.04, 265.05, 265.10, 265.11, 265.12, 265.13, 265.15 and 270.05 shall not apply to: 6. Possession of a switchblade or gravity knife for use while hunting, trapping or fishing by a person carrying a valid license issued to him pursuant to section 11-0713 of the environmental conservation law. In other words, as long as you have a LEGAL NYS hunting/fishing license, and you are hunting, trapping, or fishing, you can have and legally posses a switchblade. YAY NY!!! ROFL!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rjhauser 0 Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bshoop13 0 Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 so a IZ-196 stock is legal? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
numbnuts 1 Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 What does the IZ-196 look like? Also- I was thinking of the R-427 on an UN-converted S-12............. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bshoop13 0 Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 What does the IZ-196 look like? Also- I was thinking of the R-427 on an UN-converted S-12............. IZ-196 is used on an unconverted also Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 Guys... trust me... the R-427 stocks SUCK!!!!! YES, they LOOK COOL... BUT... The LOP for your finger is enormous!! Get a Chinese thumbhole if you MUST go with a wooden thumbhole... See the images in my gallery... you can see both setups that way... or theres more pics at the perfect union link of the ones with Chinese thumbholes on them... http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?autoco...um&album=44 http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/showthread.php?t=50364 Otherwise... you can get that R-427... AND... dont pay more than about 9 bucks for one, though... seriously, shop around the net, they are out there for DIRT CHEAP... and then you can work your Dremel-Fu on it, to rout it out so your hand fits better and you can actually REACH the trigger with your fingers... I have been there... done that... its not as cool as you think... thats why you DO NOT SEE MANY of them with those stocks on them!!! Dont ya think if they were the "cats ass" MANY guns would be shown in pics, with them on them?!?!??! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted December 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 Wow Indy, You've got a nice collection there:-) I noticed you have a few with a stock like the SLR-95, what are your thoughts on the feel? Also, thank you for the link to the NY laws page. Really as late into the ban as it was put into law you would think if they were going to hammer on thumbhole stocks it would be in there. So that definitly is comforting. And i fully understand what your saying about being able to go to a store and pick up a rifle with a thumbhole, they are everywhere up here. I would also like to thank you, and 22 shooter for your help over PMs earlier. I'm not going to worry about it any more. Really the only question left stands do i use the stock i originaly chose or go with the SLR style. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
numbnuts 1 Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 Good points Mr Indy........well taken.........nice collection too. I'm just kickin' around ideas of what to change w/o doing the conversion.........YET Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 As far as the SLR95 style thumbholes... I do like those exceptionally well, for TWO reasons... ONE... they fit my hand really nicely... I have LARGE hands... but actually a thinner grip works for me, as its easier to grip... dunno why... it just feels right to me... probably cause my fingers are like sausages! LOL Also... same with a standard AK style grip... they are smaller than some out there, and even smaller than the blonde wood grips you can see on two of my converted X39 Saigas... Those too, ( the standard AK style grip) Fit my hands really well... TWO... They make a conversion take about 45 minutes from start to finish! you just pop them on... done! I used the standard screws to hold them on, on top and a wood bolt from the inside because the angles between the thumbhole and the standard pistol grip nut are all wrong... and they wont line up without major tweaking of the pistol grip nut to hit the proper angle... BUT... I ran a wood thread bolt down through the inside of the receiver into the stock... plus the two receiver screws on the top side... VERY solid. Sometimes they do need minor dremel-fu to fit properly... as they are just quickly and cheaply made, but they are one of my favorites... as you can see, I have several conversions with them on there! I also was able to buy them way back when they were .89 cents each... but ya had to buy 10, and then you got charged $20 bucks shipping... still... $3.00 shipped wasnt too bad... I ordered 20 of them... sold almost all of them off except for the ones on my guns... and like one or two "defect" ones I still have kicking around someplace... As far as the 10 rounders go... it looks to me like according to the penal code, we could use the 10 rounders... God help you if you can insert 11!!! As long as you have no other mods to the shotgun... which means you would have to get compliance parts to hit 922R compliance without altering the stock, as it cannot have a pistol grip... but then, whats a thumbhole?!?!? honestly... I have no idea... and thats the point... we get kept in the dark... they can fuck us if they want, and we cant argue to correct... cause its mind boggling! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted December 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 As far as the 10 rounders go... it looks to me like according to the penal code, we could use the 10 rounders... God help you if you can insert 11!!! As long as you have no other mods to the shotgun... which means you would have to get compliance parts to hit 922R compliance without altering the stock, as it cannot have a pistol grip... but then, whats a thumbhole?!?!? honestly... I have no idea... and thats the point... we get kept in the dark... they can fuck us if they want, and we cant argue to correct... cause its mind boggling! Exacly the point. I plan to use AGP's. I have one already. Keep it loaded with 2 3/4 00 buckshot right next to the 2 5 rnd mags full of slugs, the 2 30 rnd mags of 7.62x39, the 5 30 rnd mags of .223 and the dozen or so stripper clips for the 7.62x39 sks... and thats really just there in case someone tries to take one of the bikes! Leave the garage alone! take something from the house! LOL Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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