Courtjester 0 Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 I know that Renegadebuck's adapter just came out and I'm not sure of exactly when MSA started selling theirs ... but ... anyone with any experiance at the range with either of these two products yet?? Thanks, Jester Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GreenEye 1 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 That's the 60 million dollar question. I think either none have shipped out yet or no one has gotten them to work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Koliadko 207 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Cobra is installing one from MSA right now...a prototype. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
avnate 335 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 That's the 60 million dollar question. I think either none have shipped out yet or no one has gotten them to work. We have not officially started production. There is a few testers out there that we are awaiting feedback from, once this happens then production will begin. to date all of my local testers have had great results. One of whom was there with me doing the live fire video we have posted in the MSA section of the forum. There are/were persons who got a bad batch from the rapid prototype as this is the fastest way to test the design, but this also creates a weak ABS form that can easily be broken if not handled correctly or the milling is off on the gun and it is forced in, as in a few cases already. Just to be clear the adapter in the live fire video was a rapid prototype, and they can be used safely for 50-100rnds......... I have a 100rounds in mine alone. I am personally awaiting feedback from the remaining four and hope to have news to post, until then I will be happy to answer all questions. Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
renegadebuck 16 Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 That's the 60 million dollar question. I think either none have shipped out yet or no one has gotten them to work. If you do the machine work right, they work great. I've had one guy that took too much off and it wouldn't work. He sent pics and the adapter back and I will adjust and reship it tomorrow. I've had no complaints or comments on any of the others. I'm interested too. I shipped one ea. today to a couple of members of this forum and I can't wait to hear their thoughts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
renegadebuck 16 Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 That's the 60 million dollar question. I think either none have shipped out yet or no one has gotten them to work. If you do the machine work right, they work great. I've had one guy that took too much off and it wouldn't work. He sent pics and the adapter back and I will adjust and reship it tomorrow. I've had no complaints or comments on any of the others. I'm interested too. I shipped one ea. today to a couple of members of this forum and I can't wait to hear their thoughts. Ok, It was bound to happen. I received my first negative feedback this morning. I'm not sure what the complaint is, still awaiting more feedback. He will receive a prompt refund as he requested. I hope he does, at least tell me the problem so I can make sure it doesn't happen again. I did make the batch that he received a little tighter on the mag fit to take away a little slop, but if the machine work is done properly, it works fine. I may have taken away the margin for small error though. I'll see if anymore of that batch has any complaints. One bent in shipping and one unsatisfied out of 50 or so, not too bad so far. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GreenEye 1 Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 If you shipped 50 of these already and not a single person has posted that they got them to work, There must be something up. I mean this is a pretty "talky" forum with members sharing their experiences pretty freely. Now I am not saying they don't work or can't be made to work with effort, just that it seems odd not one person has posted to that effect. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
renegadebuck 16 Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 If you shipped 50 of these already and not a single person has posted that they got them to work, There must be something up. I mean this is a pretty "talky" forum with members sharing their experiences pretty freely. Now I am not saying they don't work or can't be made to work with effort, just that it seems odd not one person has posted to that effect. Out of that 50, only a few have gone to members of this forum. I just talked to Chris,(the guy that had a complaint) and his only trouble is using promags and they don't fall out easily when empty. All I have are milspec USG mags and this is what I built them for as I assumed (yeah, I know) that milspec was milspec. He said that they fed perfectly and just were rubbing when removed. I gave him choices of custom making one for him and his promags(that's all he has), money back, or fixing his to take promags. So you can guess what I'm buying monday. A promag! Here's his email. Hi Mike, I am going to go ahead and keep it. The adapter has rub marks on the inside from where the mag was rubbing. I got the mag to rest up against the rails nicely but the mag still doesnt drop free when the release is pressed. I am using magpul pmags and I think this may be the problem because they rub the adapter I will try GI mags and see if it cures the rubbing problem. Have you used Pmags before in the adapter? After installing per your instructions the gun cycles flawlessly and I know in your instructions you said not to do anything to the adapter but with the adapter off the gun I can clearly see where the mag is rubbing not allowing it to drop freely. Do you think it would fix the problem to remove the areas that are rubbing? Thanks Chris Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GreenEye 1 Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 (edited) Promags and magpul pmags are two totally different animals. Promags are cheaper (price and quality) mags, whereas magpul pmags are considered some of the best AR mags. Both are polymer mags though. Edited January 11, 2009 by GreenEye Quote Link to post Share on other sites
imarangemaster 315 Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Polymer mags in gen eral tend to be tighter than GI. I had some orlite Israeli that wouldn,t fit a BUshmaster lower, but GI did. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
avnate 335 Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Regarding the Magpul Pmags, As these are what we developed around. The side ribs on the mags will need to wear down a bit to help in the drop free. I have noticed a few to be of different tolerance in our mag adapter (some drop easy and some don't). I stated this in the very beginning of our development........ A light sanding will remedy this or a few dozen cycles will wear it in as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cma g21 3 Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Regarding the Magpul Pmags, As these are what we developed around. The side ribs on the mags will need to wear down a bit to help in the drop free. I have noticed a few to be of different tolerance in our mag adapter (some drop easy and some don't). I stated this in the very beginning of our development........ A light sanding will remedy this or a few dozen cycles will wear it in as well. There are several generations of PMags. They had some dimensional issues (due to shrinkage) in early versions. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
avnate 335 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 The following is a unbiased/unedited feedback report from a beta tester here on the forum. Who if he chooses can verify everything that was submitted back, his report has already been addressed or is already compensated for in the CNC file. "I milled my trunnion and got the adapter fit up today, all went well. It hand cycles perfectly, even with my C products 20 rounder which doesn't have the anti-tilt follower. I didn't have to mill as deep as you had suggested, I only had to go about .87", This puts the mag hard up against the trunnion and locks it in tight, I don't know if this matters, but it worked anyway. I would, however, still still consider building up that bullet guide for the next generation if I were you, heres why: The .308 mags have a bullet guide even though the shell almost never touches it, what it does is prevent the bullet from ever feeding to low in the rare event that it should. I noticed today that it would be possible for that to happen with this adapter as the bullets do feed pretty low. I realize that by not milling as deep as recommended I have increased the odds of this happening and I may mill deeper, still though, I would like to see a more positive feed mechanism I gotta say, after seeing how much trunnion had to be removed and what this does to how AK mags fit, I don't think I will even want to use AK mags anymore with this gun. This makes the permanent adapter even more attractive, I may be in the market for one of those when they are ready. The mags still fit a little tight, but that isn't a big deal so long as the Xenoy is a little more slippery than the ABS. I took a good look at this and the mags were leaving marks all around the adapter, so it isn't tight in any one spot, its everywhere. The spring is almost able to eject the mag, it just stops about halfway out. Hopefully tomorrow I can give you live fire test results, but as of this moment I would say that everything is a go, this thing works great. Hopefully I don't sound to negative, I really do think this will be an excellent product provided that everything goes right with the molds. Also, I can't wait to hear your announcement tomorrow. biggrin.gif" Now that we are going to a all aluminum construction the lubricity issue (mag ejection) is moot . In the original mold there was drafting added but not to the prototype file used to create the prototypes. Also, due to the layered construction process it creates friction that needs to be sanded down for the mag to eject properly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cscharlie 107 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 The Magpul p-mags fit a little tight in some ar15 magwells also. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bad Bob 0 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Regarding the Magpul Pmags........ A light sanding will remedy this or a few dozen cycles will wear it in as well. Bingo! That's one advantage of polymer mags - if they're tight in the mag well, you can just sand the areas that are binding, and you'll be good to go! I had that happen back in the 90's with my first Eagle Arms AR, using some polymer mags, and sanding the mags cured the problem completely. (By the way, I like the Magpul PMAGs a lot, and would not hesitate to use them, even if it meant spending a little time with some fine sandpaper to get things functioning 100%... ;>) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
protected static 19 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I gotta say, after seeing how much trunnion had to be removed and what this does to how AK mags fit, I don't think I will even want to use AK mags anymore with this gun. I'm curious as to what the tester meant by this. Does this apply to Saiga-specific mags as well, or only modified 5.56 AK mags? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ArcFault 4 Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 I gotta say, after seeing how much trunnion had to be removed and what this does to how AK mags fit, I don't think I will even want to use AK mags anymore with this gun. I'm curious as to what the tester meant by this. Does this apply to Saiga-specific mags as well, or only modified 5.56 AK mags? That was me and I was referring to unmodified Bulgarian 5.56 mags. After the trunnion is milled out there is no need to use modified mags anymore, but the result would be the same with modded Bulgarians and with stock mags, I don't know about Weigers because I dont have any. What I meant was this, and it really isn't a big deal. To fit up this adapter and get the mags to sit high enough so that they will lock into the adapter, more material must be removed from the trunnion than one would for a normal conversion to military mags. What happens is that when you go to remove the AK mag in the way that you are used to, the front of the mag rises up and the rear binds a little against the crossbolt. Normally those locking lugs are the pivot point for the mag to rock out on, just as the lower lug is the pivot point by which they rock in on. This is easy to deal with by just pulling down on the mag a little as you rock it out. I do not know how this will affect firing with these mags as I do not have a bullet guide in this gun, but I do know that the stock mag seems to work fine. I put 100 rounds through this adapter today and it worked like a charm, I had one failure to feed on the last round from a CProducts mag (the Pmags worked flawlessly). I am confident that this happened because of the fact that I milled a little bit more shallow then Nathan recommended and this changed the feed angle slightly. I have little doubt that that change will make the difference along with a slight ramp being added to the adapter if possible. I will try and answer any other questions people might have as best I can, so ask away. I am also curious to hear from the other testers at this point, either via open forum or PM if preferred. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
protected static 19 Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Thanks, that was very helpful. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronswin 26 Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 I take it that even with a magazine adapter in place, the Saiga rifle still needs a bullet ramp installed in order to feed correctly? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
protected static 19 Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 The polymer version had a bullet ramp built into it; I had assumed that the aluminum one would as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ArcFault 4 Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 The polymer version had a bullet ramp built into it; I had assumed that the aluminum one would as well. Correct, you do not need a bullet guide to use this adapter, however, if you want to be able to swap back and forth to military AK mags you will still need some sort of bullet guide. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronswin 26 Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 I'm sold if these have a ramp built in. This will help complete a .223 conversion in progress I've got going on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
avnate 335 Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 I'm sold if these have a ramp built in. This will help complete a .223 conversion in progress I've got going on. Based on ArcFaults suggestion we have already raised the front lip to serve as a guide.... Not much, just a bit for the brass to ride on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
7.62smith 1 Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 So from what I gather, 2 people are making these adapters, the cost is 120 for either one. One of them has the mag release on the right side and is metal, the other is poly and has the mag catch on the left hand side. Who exactly is it that are offering these conversions right now? I'm going to buy one of these for sure, I wish I could have got in on the test group. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
avnate 335 Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 So from what I gather, 2 people are making these adapters, the cost is 120 for either one. One of them has the mag release on the right side and is metal, the other is poly and has the mag catch on the left hand side. Who exactly is it that are offering these conversions right now? I'm going to buy one of these for sure, I wish I could have got in on the test group. To bring you up to speed, our poly project is suspended for the time being. We are all CNC'd 6061 aluminum with both Left and Right release. Price is 139.00 plus shipping. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
renegadebuck 16 Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 So from what I gather, 2 people are making these adapters, the cost is 120 for either one. One of them has the mag release on the right side and is metal, the other is poly and has the mag catch on the left hand side. Who exactly is it that are offering these conversions right now? I'm going to buy one of these for sure, I wish I could have got in on the test group. Mine is the one made from steel. I don't think you could go wrong with either one. Both will work well and last. I haven't seen the aluminum one from Nathan, But I'm sure it's a good product if he is producing it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
7.62smith 1 Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 I plan to buy the one from MSA, quick question, what has to be modded on these? Is it part of the receiver or the bottom of the bolt? I just picked up 10 stainless steel AR mags so I'll have mags specifically for this gun Quote Link to post Share on other sites
avnate 335 Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 I plan to buy the one from MSA, quick question, what has to be modded on these? Is it part of the receiver or the bottom of the bolt? I just picked up 10 stainless steel AR mags so I'll have mags specifically for this gun Cobra will have some detailed pics coming soon, not sure where it is but you can search for galil mag adapter and there is few lengthy posts on how to. Our adapter lets you stay in between the rivets, I know I have a couple of pics in our AR mag adapter thread. I will post a instructions as soon as I am finished completing them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
renegadebuck 16 Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Courtjester 0 Posted January 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 Nathan, Any idea when these will be into full production and shipping?? Thanks, Jester Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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