soulless 0 Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 (edited) Read and went to that site that had to check boxes.. Not sure if i'm understanding it correctly.. So the saiga 308 in it's original configuration is 922r compliant, right? or is it not and our job is to removed at least 4 imported parts and use us parts? If it comes illegal in the beginning, why even sell it to us? Okay, now what if all I did was added: http://www.gilbertsguns.com/Rifles/Saiga/S...ail+Scope+Mount http://www.gilbertsguns.com/Rifles/Saiga/S...letonized+Stock Would my gun still be 922R compliant? legal? I would have to replace 6 other foreign parts to be compliant, eh? Damn confusing.. Overall, This is like saying, "Help our economy and not theirs" US seems to have this thing with foreign quality. I.E. Honda > Ford. Imagine everytime buying a Honda and we have to swap out japanese parts with american parts so we can drive it legally. Omg, car won't last past 50k miles... We're basically buying this gun and swapping out parts before actually being able to use it...retarded...lol! Hope the quality in the us gun saiga parts are just as good as its original parts. EDITED: oops.. didn't know there was a specific forum dedicated to this 922r laws.. Do post answers here if you feel like it... Edited February 11, 2009 by soulless Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Your links don't work for me but I'll try to help. The gun is perfectly legal as imported since it is a "sporting weapon". If it is modified to become "non-sporting" then you must comply with 922r. Non-sporting features are pistol grips, "hi-cap" mags, and muzzle devices. If you add any of these thaen 922r applies. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cma g21 3 Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Read and went to that site that had to check boxes.. Not sure if i'm understanding it correctly.. So the saiga 308 in it's original configuration is 922r compliant, right? or is it not and our job is to removed at least 4 imported parts and use us parts? If it comes illegal in the beginning, why even sell it to us? Okay, now what if all I did was added: It's legal as imported, as long as you don't use magazines that can hold more than ten rounds. I can't get your links to work, but adding a scope and mount does not effect 922r compliance, nor does the skeleton stock. Would my gun still be 922R compliant? legal? I would have to replace 6 other foreign parts to be compliant, eh? Damn confusing.. The rifle is imported with 14 922r parts, so replacing 4 would allow the use of magazines that can hold more than ten rounds. If you stick with Surefires, that would take care of 3 of the parts. Change the gas piston and no more would be required for 922r. We're basically buying this gun and swapping out parts before actually being able to use it...retarded...lol! Hope the quality in the us gun saiga parts are just as good as its original parts. No, as long as you use the gun as imported (and stick to magazines that can hold ten rounds or less), you don't have to change anything. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mollysman420 19 Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 I dont like reling on mags for comply make your gun comply its easy FCG=3 PG=1 Butt stock =1 IF barrel threaded MD =1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cma g21 3 Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 (edited) I dont like reling on mags for comply make your gun comply its easyFCG=3 PG=1 Butt stock =1 IF barrel threaded MD =1 The Saigas are not imported with a pistol grip, so adding a US made pistol grip does nothing to help with compliance (adding a foreign pistol grip will actually add another foreign 922r part and take you farther from compliance). Also, I don't believe any Saiga .308's are imported with threaded barrels (only some of the shotguns are). Edited February 11, 2009 by cma g21 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
soulless 0 Posted February 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 http://www.gilbertsguns.com/Rifles/Saiga/S...ail+Scope+Mount http://www.gilbertsguns.com/Rifles/Saiga/S...letonized+Stock i guess all i wanna know is if i added these 2 parts, will my gun still be legal that's all.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 The scope mount is unrelated to 922r. The Skeleton stock is not counted, as CMA said above, since they are imported in that configuration. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
soulless 0 Posted February 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 The scope mount is unrelated to 922r. The Skeleton stock is not counted, as CMA said above, since they are imported in that configuration. but isn't the RAA stock a non-US part? omg, i feel so stupid.. i am not understanding this correctly at all.. so even with the RAA stock, my gun is still legal...???? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
soulless 0 Posted February 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Read and went to that site that had to check boxes.. Not sure if i'm understanding it correctly.. So the saiga 308 in it's original configuration is 922r compliant, right? or is it not and our job is to removed at least 4 imported parts and use us parts? If it comes illegal in the beginning, why even sell it to us? Okay, now what if all I did was added: It's legal as imported, as long as you don't use magazines that can hold more than ten rounds. I can't get your links to work, but adding a scope and mount does not effect 922r compliance, nor does the skeleton stock. Would my gun still be 922R compliant? legal? I would have to replace 6 other foreign parts to be compliant, eh? Damn confusing.. The rifle is imported with 14 922r parts, so replacing 4 would allow the use of magazines that can hold more than ten rounds. If you stick with Surefires, that would take care of 3 of the parts. Change the gas piston and no more would be required for 922r. We're basically buying this gun and swapping out parts before actually being able to use it...retarded...lol! Hope the quality in the us gun saiga parts are just as good as its original parts. No, as long as you use the gun as imported (and stick to magazines that can hold ten rounds or less), you don't have to change anything. i guess one of the confusing part is, when i checked out that site that has the checked boxes and you uncheck the parts to make it legal. It starts out with foreign 14 parts = illegal on the bottom of that site.. So since the saiga 308 comes imported with 14 foreign parts, it would be illegal then... yet still be able to use it in it's original imported configuration???? i'm giving u guys a headache.. sorry Quote Link to post Share on other sites
greatmoose 4 Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Read and went to that site that had to check boxes.. Not sure if i'm understanding it correctly.. So the saiga 308 in it's original configuration is 922r compliant, right? or is it not and our job is to removed at least 4 imported parts and use us parts? If it comes illegal in the beginning, why even sell it to us? Okay, now what if all I did was added: It's legal as imported, as long as you don't use magazines that can hold more than ten rounds. I can't get your links to work, but adding a scope and mount does not effect 922r compliance, nor does the skeleton stock. Would my gun still be 922R compliant? legal? I would have to replace 6 other foreign parts to be compliant, eh? Damn confusing.. The rifle is imported with 14 922r parts, so replacing 4 would allow the use of magazines that can hold more than ten rounds. If you stick with Surefires, that would take care of 3 of the parts. Change the gas piston and no more would be required for 922r. We're basically buying this gun and swapping out parts before actually being able to use it...retarded...lol! Hope the quality in the us gun saiga parts are just as good as its original parts. No, as long as you use the gun as imported (and stick to magazines that can hold ten rounds or less), you don't have to change anything. i guess one of the confusing part is, when i checked out that site that has the checked boxes and you uncheck the parts to make it legal. It starts out with foreign 14 parts = illegal on the bottom of that site.. So since the saiga 308 comes imported with 14 foreign parts, it would be illegal then... yet still be able to use it in it's original imported configuration???? i'm giving u guys a headache.. sorry No, it would not be illegal as it does not have any (well, just 1) naughty parts. The 922r parts count game ONLY comes into play when you have MORE THAN ONE prohibited part (P-grip, muzzle device, high-cap mag, detachable mag, bayonet lug, etc...) As imported, the Saiga only has a detachable mag, so it's a "sport" gun. You add any of the other naughty items, you gotta start counting parts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cma g21 3 Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 (edited) i guess one of the confusing part is, when i checked out that site that has the checked boxes and you uncheck the parts to make it legal. It starts out with foreign 14 parts = illegal on the bottom of that site.. So since the saiga 308 comes imported with 14 foreign parts, it would be illegal then... yet still be able to use it in it's original imported configuration???? i'm giving u guys a headache.. sorry It not 'illegal' until you change something. Saigas are imported in 'Sporting' configuration (as determined by the BATFE). 922r does not apply to 'Sporting' rifles, so the parts list is not applied. Now (again as determined by the BATFE), adding certain features to the imported rifle renders it unimportable (so 922r now applies). For example, adding a pistol grip and/or magazine that can hold more than 10 rounds (5 for shotguns) causes 922r to apply. If you want to use a magazine that can hold more than 10 rounds or add a pistol grip, then 922r would apply, and your foreign 922r parts count must be 10 or less. Use it as imported, and it's 'legal'. Edited February 11, 2009 by cma g21 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Don't feel bad, it's been confusing people for years. Greatmoose, I'm not sure what you mean by "more than one" part. If you add any one of the parts: hicap mag, pistol grip or muzzle device you make the gun non-sporting and 922r applies. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
greatmoose 4 Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 (edited) I believe the verbage (I could be wrong) was something to the effect of "922r applies when a firearm has two or more of the following...", meaning any ONE of the items is OK (in this case, detachable lo-cap mags). That's all I meant. I hate this stupid law. Edited February 12, 2009 by greatmoose Quote Link to post Share on other sites
soulless 0 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 (edited) thanks guys... why is it that some come with the RAA stock and some doesn't? damn.. my didn't come with it.. had to buy one for $75 Edited February 12, 2009 by soulless Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dftc 0 Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 (edited) Now (again as determined by the BATFE), adding certain features to the imported rifle renders it unimportable (so 922r now applies). For example, adding a pistol grip and/or magazine that can hold more than 10 rounds (5 for shotguns) causes 922r to apply. Why do I care what the ATF has to say about whether or not I can import a rifle I already own and purchased here in the US? The importing was done by someone else before I ever had anything to do with the rifle. If 922r only addresses the importability of a rifle then why should I (an end consumer) care about import laws. Maybe if I took my rifle out of the country and tried to bring it back in again there would be an issue, but I don't see how 922r applies to mere possession and use of any firearm. Now, when I read 922r I see a lot of references to assembly, but no references to possession or use. Does simply placing a magazine into your magazine well constitute "assembly"? How about the conversion process so many of us put our rifles through? Is that legally considered "assembly" or is it simple modification? Just to clarify, I have plenty of US parts on all my rifles so I'm not worried one way or the other. However I do think that somewhere along the line someone got it into their head that this all applies to end-users and now we all get worked up and confused for no reason. Edited February 12, 2009 by dftc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 (edited) Edited February 12, 2009 by BobAsh Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dftc 0 Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 (edited) Why do I care what the ATF has to say about whether or not I can import a rifle I already own and purchased here in the US? The importing was done by someone else before I ever had anything to do with the rifle.If 922r only addresses the importability of a rifle then why should I (an end consumer) care about import laws. You misunderstand the law, which is not uncommon. Here's a link to the whole thing: US CODE TITLE 18, 922 Actually, I think I understand it pretty well now. (I was just reading up on a bunch of ATF rulings). I still don't see how putting a 30 round mag into a stock Saiga violates the law in any way, unless the simple act of placing a mag into the rifle is considered "assembly". I did a lot of looking and couldn't find a BATFE definition of "assembly" as it applies to firearms. There are definitions of "manufacture", but the way the law is worded it is clear that "assembly" and "manufacture" are considered separate concepts. The Saiga rifle was built with the intention of allowing magazines to be routinely inserted and removed, and in fact necessary during the regular use of the rifle for it to function as intended. I don't see how the act using the rifle in it's intended way could be considered "assembly". Now in my previous post I questioned whether the conversion process applies and I now believe that it probably does, primarily because it involves some drilling and possibly other permanent modification to the rifle. However, If I were to buy a converted rifle from someone else and it later turned out to have an incorrect parts count, I don't think that I would have any legal liability because I didn't do any assembly myself. Possession and use is not addressed in 922r in any way, only manufacturing and assembly. It seems to me that 922r is aimed squarely at kit builders. As such it probably also applies to people who convert Saigas, but not to people who simply possess and use them. Of course it may take a court case to clear this up. Has anyone ever actually had their Saiga rifle inspected by the feds? Has any end-user been arrested for a violation of this law? I'm not talking about manufacturers, but about people who modify their rifles for their own personal use. Edited February 12, 2009 by dftc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Actually, I think I understand it pretty well now. (I was just reading up on a bunch of ATF rulings).I still don't see how putting a 30 round mag into a stock Saiga violates the law in any way, unless the simple act of placing a mag into the rifle is considered "assembly". I did a lot of looking and couldn't find a BATFE definition of "assembly" as it applies to firearms. There are definitions of "manufacture", but the way the law is worded it is clear that "assembly" and "manufacture" are considered separate concepts. The Saiga rifle was built with the intention of allowing magazines to be routinely inserted and removed, and in fact necessary during the regular use of the rifle for it to function as intended. I don't see how the act using the rifle in it's intended way could be considered "assembly". By inserting a 30rnd mag into a sporting Saiga you have in fact assembled an assault rifle, since the mag capacity makes the gun non-sporting. There are lots of discussions over the semantics of "assemble" and "manufacture", but the ATF takes a narrow view, generally speaking. For instance, if you SBR your gun you must engrave your name on it. You have legally "become" the manufacturer of the weapon, and 922r no longer applies since it is no longer an "imported" weapon, even though you may have changed ZERO parts. Every person must assess his own risk management. Some people ignore 922r, just as some ignore other laws. Personally I wouldn't do it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cma g21 3 Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 (edited) I believe the verbage (I could be wrong) was something to the effect of "922r applies when a firearm has two or more of the following...", meaning any ONE of the items is OK (in this case, detachable lo-cap mags). That's all I meant. I hate this stupid law. Sorry I didn't see this sooner. Greatmoose, you're right*. But the Saiga already comes with one of those 'evil' features, a detachable magazine. A detachable magazine (of any capacity) is one of those 'evil' features. A magazine that can hold more than 10 rounds (5 for a shotgun) is another 'evil' feature. So as an example, a detachable 30 round magazine would be 2 'evil' features (and 922r would apply). Another example, a Saiga rifle with the Tapco Intrafuse would have 2 of those 'evil' features (a pistol grip + detachable magazine) with a 10 round magazine, or 3 if a 30 round magazine is used (either way 922r applies). * - As a rule of thumb, but the BATFE claims to judge each firearm submitted for import on a case-by-case basis. Edited February 19, 2009 by cma g21 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Zoojelly 0 Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Now (again as determined by the BATFE), adding certain features to the imported rifle renders it unimportable (so 922r now applies). For example, adding a pistol grip and/or magazine that can hold more than 10 rounds (5 for shotguns) causes 922r to apply. Why do I care what the ATF has to say about whether or not I can import a rifle I already own and purchased here in the US? The importing was done by someone else before I ever had anything to do with the rifle. If 922r only addresses the importability of a rifle then why should I (an end consumer) care about import laws. Maybe if I took my rifle out of the country and tried to bring it back in again there would be an issue, but I don't see how 922r applies to mere possession and use of any firearm. Now, when I read 922r I see a lot of references to assembly, but no references to possession or use. Does simply placing a magazine into your magazine well constitute "assembly"? How about the conversion process so many of us put our rifles through? Is that legally considered "assembly" or is it simple modification? Just to clarify, I have plenty of US parts on all my rifles so I'm not worried one way or the other. However I do think that somewhere along the line someone got it into their head that this all applies to end-users and now we all get worked up and confused for no reason. I agree with dftc, this rule is for people who import into US, not end users, What you will find is people who make a living selling parts trying to control people with fear since it helps sell product. Good luck finding a citizen getting in trouble for common sense modifications like High cap. mag. I did mine conversion counting items as suggested Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cma g21 3 Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Patriotexpress 0 Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Sorry guys, brand new to this and have read through the various 922r threads. Just want to clarify an issue. My Saiga .308 came with the skeletonized stock and pistol grip. The grip I understand to be a "naughty part." If I dont exceed a 10 round magazine in my rifle then am I compliant, right? I intend to do some upgrades with U.S. parts later but want to clarify I comply in the interim if I dont exceed the 10 round magazine rule. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
greatmoose 4 Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Sorry guys, brand new to this and have read through the various 922r threads. Just want to clarify an issue. My Saiga .308 came with the skeletonized stock and pistol grip. The grip I understand to be a "naughty part." If I dont exceed a 10 round magazine in my rifle then am I compliant, right? I intend to do some upgrades with U.S. parts later but want to clarify I comply in the interim if I dont exceed the 10 round magazine rule. If it came that way from the factory (with the thumbhole stock), it's fine with the 10 rounder (really, 8 rounds) magazine. To use a hi-cap mag (more than 10), you'll need to convert (or use US furniture and mags, sort of an iffy proposition). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Elk 0 Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 I have experience with firearms manufacture and the ATF Tech Dept. They maintain: 1) Assembly, refinishing, etc. = Manufacture period; i.e. if you park it you manufactured it and MUST have an FFL 07 if you do it for others since you are 'engaged in the business'. 2) 922® ONLY applies to the assembly of a long gun NOT posession. 3) Posession is NOT ifto facto assembly, and if it came with hicap mags then simply placing them into the firearms mag well is NOT assembly. 4) The LOCAL ATF branch has juristiction on this and MAY deside to investigate "who?" assembled it, but this has NEVER happened to date. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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