davederrick 0 Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Been cleaning my Saiga AK103 today, and it just seems to be taking much longer than normal to clean up. The first 2 or 3 patches came out solid black on the leading edge, and clean on the trailing edge. But I've been putting wet then dry patches through for nearly 20 minutes. They are still coming through with black lines along the patch, corresponding to the rifling grooves between the lands. Not really black, but still quite dark streaks on the patch. I've not been shooting an AK for long, is this normal ? Should I actually continue until the patch is perfectly clean coming out ? When I clean my .308 rifles, the patches come out perfectly clean after a couple of minutes. Is this just how AK's are ? Mine is a UK "straight pull" action. I was firing some reloads, using fairly light loads to try & get the MV down a bit, some of the ejected cases were quite sooty. Thanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RomyG 0 Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 (edited) Been cleaning my Saiga AK103 today, and it just seems to be taking much longer than normal to clean up. The first 2 or 3 patches came out solid black on the leading edge, and clean on the trailing edge. But I've been putting wet then dry patches through for nearly 20 minutes. They are still coming through with black lines along the patch, corresponding to the rifling grooves between the lands. Not really black, but still quite dark streaks on the patch. I've not been shooting an AK for long, is this normal ? Should I actually continue until the patch is perfectly clean coming out ? When I clean my .308 rifles, the patches come out perfectly clean after a couple of minutes. Is this just how AK's are ? Mine is a UK "straight pull" action. I was firing some reloads, using fairly light loads to try & get the MV down a bit, some of the ejected cases were quite sooty. Thanks. I guess if the ammo is extra dirty, it requires a bit more cleaning. Do you have similar problems with other brands of ammo? Edited April 12, 2009 by RomyG Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mav 459 Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Try some of the foaming bore cleaner, I have had much luck with it, i use it in my 300 ultra mag, which leaves a lot of powder in barrel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yakdung 2,926 Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Ditch the patches and make life simple use one of these: http://www.hoppes.com/products/ca_boresnakes.html Yakdung Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Ditch the patches and make life simple use one of these: http://www.hoppes.com/products/ca_boresnakes.html Yakdung I was going to suggest the same thing. Boresnakes are great products. They save a lot of time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saigafan12345 21 Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Yeah just like those guys said, get a bore snake, they're awesome. 2-3 pulls with a bore snake is probably, no exaggeration, like using 50+ patches. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
imarangemaster 315 Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Clean an AK? You mean these weapons need cleaned sometime! Just kidding. Though I confess when shooting non-corrosive ammo, I only clean an AK thoroughly once a year or so. Wipe it down with some Ballistol, a few drops in the fire control group and bolt group, and a couple Ballistol patches down the barrel and its good to go. Takes 5 minutes tops. They were actually designed to be fire dry if they had too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
davederrick 0 Posted April 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Thanks guys, good advice. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SimpleIsGood229 3 Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 You mention some reduced powder charge rounds coming out sooty. It sounds to me like the loads aren't generating enough pressure to expand the case inside the chamber. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
imarangemaster 315 Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 You say straight pull. I am assuming that UK bans semi autos, so your Saiga is a modern day Ross or Schmidt-Ruben Do they eliminate gas hole and piston, or what. Curious. I guess. DO you use cast loads? The LEE 160 .312 with 16 grains of 2400 is good. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
davederrick 0 Posted April 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Yeah - I figured the brass wasnt expanding enough. They were the lowest charge I was testing, dont need to go that low. I'll use a higher charge & those cases were coming out clean. The UK does ban semi-auto, so its basically a bolt action rifle - pull the charging handle for each round. The gas block is solid, and the gas piston is shortened. I've started casting my own rounds as I want to shoot on a specific range that limits the muzzle velocity, so I'm trying heavy bullets & a reduced powder charge. I've now got a 155gr head with 24.8 gr of Accurate 2460, giving a MV of just under 1600FPS - perfect for where I want to shoot. Cheers ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
imarangemaster 315 Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 LEE Precision has two .312 bullets molds specific for the 7.62x39. One is a spire point 155 grain with standard grease grooves, and one is a spire point 160 grain with the shallow multiple grooves for the LEE alox paint on lube. The accommodate gas checks, but most folks load to 1600 fps with hard wheel weight or linotype without gas check. 16 grains of 2400 achieves about 1600 fps and does well in the 16 inch barrels. 2400 burns very clean, you might try it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Yeah - I figured the brass wasnt expanding enough. They were the lowest charge I was testing, dont need to go that low. I'll use a higher charge & those cases were coming out clean. The UK does ban semi-auto, so its basically a bolt action rifle - pull the charging handle for each round. The gas block is solid, and the gas piston is shortened. I've started casting my own rounds as I want to shoot on a specific range that limits the muzzle velocity, so I'm trying heavy bullets & a reduced powder charge. I've now got a 155gr head with 24.8 gr of Accurate 2460, giving a MV of just under 1600FPS - perfect for where I want to shoot. Cheers ! So the gas system is completely inoperative? Wow, I bet that prevents all kinds of crime. I'm sorry, I just find UK gun laws utterly insane. Are you allowed to use a removable magazine for it or do you have to hand-load each round individually? I won't even ask how many bureaucratic hoops you must have to jump through, (and the insane amount of money you must have had to pay), to even be allowed to fire, (with "proper" supervision by your government, no doubt), this completely neutered faux-AK. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
davederrick 0 Posted April 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 So the gas system is completely inoperative? Wow, I bet that prevents all kinds of crime. I'm sorry, I just find UK gun laws utterly insane. Heh Heh Heh, you seem to understand what we have to go through just to shoot. My AK gas system is totally inoperative. You can only have semi-auto in .22 calibre, dont know why that calibre escaped the ban, but I've got a 10/22 just so I can burn some lead. No restriction on mags, I've got a couple of 30rd mags, could even have a 75rd drum mag if I had the biceps of a silverback gorilla to crank the handle that many times The "bureaucratic hoops" aren't too bad, same paperwork for all guns. If you really want to know what UK laws p*ss me off, then consider having handguns that are limited to minimum 2 foot long !!! Insane. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 (edited) So the gas system is completely inoperative? Wow, I bet that prevents all kinds of crime. I'm sorry, I just find UK gun laws utterly insane. Heh Heh Heh, you seem to understand what we have to go through just to shoot. My AK gas system is totally inoperative. You can only have semi-auto in .22 calibre, dont know why that calibre escaped the ban, but I've got a 10/22 just so I can burn some lead. No restriction on mags, I've got a couple of 30rd mags, could even have a 75rd drum mag if I had the biceps of a silverback gorilla to crank the handle that many times The "bureaucratic hoops" aren't too bad, same paperwork for all guns. If you really want to know what UK laws p*ss me off, then consider having handguns that are limited to minimum 2 foot long !!! Insane. Ha, any firearm that's 24"+ in length is hardly a "handgun". Are flintlock pistols even that long? Damn, what an incredible pain in the ass it'd be to have to hand-cycle every round.. Edited April 14, 2009 by post-apocalyptic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gothchick 0 Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 (edited) Ditch the patches and make life simple use one of these: http://www.hoppes.com/products/ca_boresnakes.html Yakdung Very cool. How long do these bore snakes last before needing to be replaced? I've always been a patch girl myself. But "change we can believe in" is always good too. Lol. Edited April 14, 2009 by gothchick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
davederrick 0 Posted April 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Ha, any firearm that's 24"+ in length is hardly a "handgun". Are flintlock pistols even that long? The 24" rule only applies to breech loaders, muzzle loaders can be shorter Damn, what an incredible pain in the ass it'd be to have to hand-cycle every round.. Oh yes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 So dave, living under those onerous restrictions, why not just get a bolt-action rifle designed to be used that way? It just seems kind of pointless to own an "AK", (in quotes cause any AK that doesn't have a fuctioning gas system isn't really an AK imo), when it's more of a semi-functional replica than a true specimen of Kalashnikov's brilliant design. Hell it's bad enough being restricted to semi-auto rather than the selective fire AK's were designed for. I've got the solution!!! Move to the States, dave! We still have our 2nd Amendment to protect our right to keep and bear arms over here... for now anyway. Damn King Barry. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
davederrick 0 Posted April 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 I know its not a "real" AK, closest I can get legally. I've got the solution!!! Move to the States, dave! I've considered this strongly several times, its very tempting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 I know its not a "real" AK, closest I can get legally. I've got the solution!!! Move to the States, dave! I've considered this strongly several times, its very tempting. If you do move across the pond, try to live in a sane state like those in the West, (but don't overshoot and end up in Kalifornia!). Avoid the northeast, Illinois, and the west coast. Rabid socialists who disdain individual liberties live there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
davederrick 0 Posted April 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2009 (edited) I've just shot my AK again today, and even though I've not had good results with boresnakes I went out & bought a new snake in .30 cal. Pulled it through twice, and then put a patch in too see if there was any dirt. Patch came out spotless, bore looked incredibly clean ! Was I wrong about boresnakes ? Yes, I love them again. Thanks for all the advice, one happy shooter now Edited April 18, 2009 by davederrick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted April 18, 2009 Report Share Posted April 18, 2009 You're welcome. Boresnakes are a great invention.. the only time I use a patch on the barrel now is as the last cleaning step, to put a very light coat of oil on a bore that's already been perfectly cleaned by the 'snake. On a sidenote, I bought a 12 gauge 'snake the other day for my Saiga 12, and as well as boresnakes work on rifled barrels, they're even better on smoothbores. My barrel was dirty as hell, (bout 80 shells worth of fouling), and one pass through from the 'snake got it clean n shiny again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yakdung 2,926 Posted April 18, 2009 Report Share Posted April 18, 2009 Glad it worked out for you. I have several Boresnakes and keep them in glass jars with tight lids. Each lid has a marking of the caliber that resides inside. I also use "RemOil" which is milspec and inexpensive and can be found at Happymart. I spray the snakes down with this stuff to keep them happy and clean inside the jars. I know you can purchase all kinds of expensive lubricants and hair gels for guns, but I just try and keep it simple. Happy Shooting! Yakdung Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sh00ter 4 Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 nice to see another Uk shooter doing the rounds Dave ive also got a saiga in 7.62 - tbh ive tried several powders etc but 15gr of 2400 behind a 123gr (S&B 2907) always comes back as a lovely round to shoot (i also shoot regularly at a range where velocity has to be kept an eye on) it also is the fav load of the mini 14 and enfield shooters at the club. never had a prob with cleaning either as the 2400 burns nice and clean, couple of patches after running a brush through is all i ever do Quote Link to post Share on other sites
davederrick 0 Posted April 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 nice to see another Uk shooter doing the rounds Dave ive also got a saiga in 7.62 - tbh ive tried several powders etc but 15gr of 2400 behind a 123gr (S&B 2907) always comes back as a lovely round to shoot (i also shoot regularly at a range where velocity has to be kept an eye on) it also is the fav load of the mini 14 and enfield shooters at the club. never had a prob with cleaning either as the 2400 burns nice and clean, couple of patches after running a brush through is all i ever do Whats the range limit you are keeping it under ? I've been trying 155gr bullet heads as I thought they would be easier to download for a reduced FPS. But I'd rather be using 123gr heads. Have you chronographed the 15gr 0f 2400 loads ? Thanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sh00ter 4 Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 (edited) our limit is 2100 - however i am sure the 15gr 2400 load is well below that, in the 1600-1800 range - it was chrono'd a while back but ive kinda forgot what it was really is worth trying as you should get more per tub and as i say all the 7.62x39 shooters i know use this load - surprisingly bulky in case for only 15gr! also 2400 is supposed to go well in .44 mag, so if your also a long barreled handgunner it wont go to waste i have been experimenting with reloder 7 as well (found a tub at back of cupboard!), also very good but needs more powder - anything under 22gr and i was getting dirty cases, but 23gr shoots very sweet (but prob faster than your looking at) accurate 2230 is one also to consider, ive just got a tub to start experimenting with on recommendation from another saiga shooter Edited April 19, 2009 by sh00ter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
davederrick 0 Posted April 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 thxs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WardenWolf 6 Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 A straight pull is still going to be faster than a bolt action in most cases. You only need to perform 1 action with your hand, that of pulling the bolt back, rather than the complex turn-pull-push-turn of a bolt action. Your hand can be returning to the trigger even as the action chambers the round. Of course, something like the Lightening Bolt could make it even faster, allowing you to use your off hand instead of your trigger hand. The unusual weight of Saigas compared to most AK's can make the Lightening Bolt's benefits useless, though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 A straight pull is still going to be faster than a bolt action in most cases. You only need to perform 1 action with your hand, that of pulling the bolt back, rather than the complex turn-pull-push-turn of a bolt action. Your hand can be returning to the trigger even as the action chambers the round. Of course, something like the Lightening Bolt could make it even faster, allowing you to use your off hand instead of your trigger hand. The unusual weight of Saigas compared to most AK's can make the Lightening Bolt's benefits useless, though. Are there even any rifles that were designed to be "straight pull", or does that term describe semi-autos that have been neutered due to idiotic anti-gun laws? If semi-auto's not even an option, you may as well enjoy the increased accuracy of a bolt-action... even if it takes a fraction of a second longer to use than "straight pull", aka gimped. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sh00ter 4 Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 (edited) Are there even any rifles that were designed to be "straight pull" there were a few turn of the 20th century, the manllicher (excuse spelling) springs to mind and im sure there was a french one as well. If semi-auto's not even an option, you may as well enjoy the increased accuracy of a bolt-action... even if it takes a fraction of a second longer to use than "straight pull", aka gimped. there are several reasons why, i know its probably hard to understand from the stateside prospective but ill have a stab: i have a bolt gun, i wanted something for short (up to 300) range more practical shooting (etr shooting) and i have used full auto AK's before the saiga's represent very good value compared to any other high capacity type full bore rifle - a 3rd of the price of a mid spec'd m16 clone although firing semi's is excellent fun (13 years in forces i think ive fired most) i try to hit the target with the first shot, so with knock down targets the follow up is useless (yes i know this is very weak...) its all we can legally own ffs! there are better guns available (the 7.62x39 enfield jungle carbine conversion for one is excellent) but ive always wanted an AK, same argument for me choosing a winchester over a Marlin, a choice of the heart not necessarily of the mind. the following is not meant in the way it maybe sounds.... using the same argument why do you buy a semi, when the AK was always designed as a selective fire weapon system? the answer i think is that one is legal to own for the masses, one is not - exactly why we have straight pulls although you are in a much more (read 100x) better situation that us poor ole brits, you also have to jump through hoops to comply with the law (changing magazine followers for US parts etc) which sounds ridiculous to anyone who doesnt have to - at the end of the day, we do what we have to so that we can carry on with a sport we enjoy and have always done. Edited April 20, 2009 by sh00ter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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