Zeroing your Saiga

[BuzzKillin 21]

Hi all-

I know that getting your Saiga zeroed has come up in several different posts, but I've been working on getting my new rifle zeroed at 100 yards, and I'm still not liking my results. I'd like to just get some quick input from you distinguished forum members on what you have done to zero your rifle; best practices, tools used (i.e. laser bore sight? AK adjustment tool?),etc. Personally, I am looking at getting a 100 yard zero as my primary range. I figured this was worth a post, as there are probably many new Saiga shooters dealing with the same issue.

 

The last suggestion I got was to use the point blank setting (or 200 yrd. setting, those being very close to the same) at a distance of 25 yards, zero in there, and then move out to 100 and check your results/adjust. Unfortunately, the range where I'm going does not allow for 25 yards, so the closest I can get is 50.

 

What I've done now is to put the target out at 100, use a spotter scope so I can see my hits, and adjust until I am getting the best results I can, firing 3 shot volleys. The first target shown is that evolution, with the 9's and 10's being the last shots I fired. Using this method, I WAS able to get progressively better results using an AK adjustment tool for up/down right/left, but it does not seem like a very scientific method, as each shot is going to obviously have variance due to wind, variations in operator technique, ammunition type, etc. What I want to understand is the tried and true method for getting properly zeroed at 100, so that I can KNOW that in a vacuum I am spot on. I am well aware that this is an AK, so I shouldn't be expecting 1 MOA groups at 100, but I'm assuming that 2-4" groups should be pretty consistently attainable at that range (no?).

 

Thank you for your input.

 

3 volley evolution:

 

Also, as a bit of an aside, I was very surprised at how high and to the right I was with the factory settings. I had to do quite a bit of adjustment before I started hitting in the black.

 

Factory settings:

[mstranglr 9]

Here is what I do on every AK I put together;

 

* Verify that gun is completely unloaded

* Set the rear sight leaf to "1" (100 meters)

* Get a sheet of blank paper and draw a 1/4" black dot in the middle of it.

* Staple the paper to the fence in the backyard and measure back 25 yds from the paper

* Using a laser bore-sighter, I adjust the front sight for POA/POI with the black dot while in a stable position.

* I go to my local range and fine-tune my front sight adjustment for POA/POI at 100 yds, letting the barrel cool between 3-shot strings.

* After I zero at 100yds, move the rear sight leaf to the battle-zero position (all the way to the rear). This will put you minute of man out to 300 yards.

 

I find this method to be simple and accurate, and it saves ammo.

[Reverendfranz 160]

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=41207&hl=

 

last post on this thread is what the soviets do.

[kope007 14]

Here's a link with pics

http://www.gunsnet.net/Linx310/sightin.htm

[loki0629 55]

Buzzkillin,

You're getting your shots in the black so whatever it is you're doing, it's working. Unfortunately, you haven't got the groups labeled so it's virtually impossible to determine what's going on with your shots. Next time you shoot, take several targets and set them up. Take a 3 or 5 shot group at the first target, make your adjustments, and shoot at the next clean target. Do this until you are satisfied with the progression or can't squeeze any more accuracy with the method you're using and post those pictures (first and last).

 

Also, how are you shooting the weapon (benched, prone, kneeling, sling, scope, etc)? Are you using the same ammo throughout the entire process? (highly recommend you do) Are you aiming center mass or 6 o'clock?

 

If I had to make a guess based on the shot pattern alone, I would say you're focusing on the target and not the front sight post. I would also be assuming the use of a loop or hasty sling and shooting from the prone position.

[BuzzKillin 21]

Buzzkillin,

You're getting your shots in the black so whatever it is you're doing, it's working. Unfortunately, you haven't got the groups labeled so it's virtually impossible to determine what's going on with your shots. Next time you shoot, take several targets and set them up. Take a 3 or 5 shot group at the first target, make your adjustments, and shoot at the next clean target. Do this until you are satisfied with the progression or can't squeeze any more accuracy with the method you're using and post those pictures (first and last).

 

Also, how are you shooting the weapon (benched, prone, kneeling, sling, scope, etc)? Are you using the same ammo throughout the entire process? (highly recommend you do) Are you aiming center mass or 6 o'clock?

 

If I had to make a guess based on the shot pattern alone, I would say you're focusing on the target and not the front sight post. I would also be assuming the use of a loop or hasty sling and shooting from the prone position.

 

Yeah, the groups, were basically moving from the outer rings towards the center, a few stragglers aside. I know you cannot tell from the photo, but I was checking every three shots through the spot scope, so I could see it.

 

Ammo was mixed Silver Bear, Golden Bear, Brown Bear.. next session will be all Brown Bear.

 

I was shooting from a bench, using iron sights only and a hand-guard rest as support.

 

Thanks

[jmh151 0]

Here is what I do on every AK I put together;

 

* Verify that gun is completely unloaded

* Set the rear sight leaf to "1" (100 meters)

* Get a sheet of blank paper and draw a 1/4" black dot in the middle of it.

* Staple the paper to the fence in the backyard and measure back 25 yds from the paper

* Using a laser bore-sighter, I adjust the front sight for POA/POI with the black dot while in a stable position.

* I go to my local range and fine-tune my front sight adjustment for POA/POI at 100 yds, letting the barrel cool between 3-shot strings.

* After I zero at 100yds, move the rear sight leaf to the battle-zero position (all the way to the rear). This will put you minute of man out to 300 yards.

 

I find this method to be simple and accurate, and it saves ammo.

 

I have a dumb question. When putting the rear sight at the 100 yarrd position (or any position for that matter)- do you put it in front of or behind the leaf marker?

[SOPMOD 254]

I clamp a 6" Craftsman vise to the table and then put a block of wood on either side of the trunnion clamp the rifle in it and get a group,adjust get another group then fine tune it.

 

This is the ultimate way of zeroing a weapon and will give you an empirical group size.

 

By the way don't make the mistake I did. I had a Bulgarian SLR95 that would not hold a group and I sold it to someone cheap and offered to let them shoot it first and they brought their own ammo and then the groups shrank significantly.I was appalled that I was basically giving away a very fine rifle because of bad ammo and I now test several types of ammo in my rifles with US made brass cased stuff turning in the best results.

[loki0629 55]

Ammo was mixed Silver Bear, Golden Bear, Brown Bear.. next session will be all Brown Bear.

I was shooting from a bench, using iron sights only and a hand-guard rest as support.

Thanks

 

You're welcome. Let us know how the next session goes. Consistency is key in zeroing the rifle to try and limit the variables affecting shot placement. But keep in mind that if you zero on a bench your point of impact might change once you start using offhand, kneeling, etc. For ranges around 100 yards this shouldn't be that big of a deal.

[Botasky1 3]

BuzzKillin.. Im going to go ahead and second what GunnyR said,, Prone position, Hasty or loop sling. Why would anyone sit on a bench and rest the weapon on a block or vise or whatever they choose for a zero?? I think a rifle should be zero'd to the shooter and his natural point of aim.. and that is where CONSISTENCY comes in. and it takes time also. Prone position, hasty or loop sling, and take your time.... It took me a good 45-50 rounds and maybe 2 hours until I was satisfied with my zero.. and I only made one adjustment the whole time. Good Luck!

[BuzzKillin 21]

BuzzKillin.. Im going to go ahead and second what GunnyR said,, Prone position, Hasty or loop sling. Why would anyone sit on a bench and rest the weapon on a block or vise or whatever they choose for a zero?? I think a rifle should be zero'd to the shooter and his natural point of aim.. and that is where CONSISTENCY comes in. and it takes time also. Prone position, hasty or loop sling, and take your time.... It took me a good 45-50 rounds and maybe 2 hours until I was satisfied with my zero.. and I only made one adjustment the whole time. Good Luck!

 

Hey Botasky, thanks for your reply.

The reason using a block or vice is a good idea is that it eliminates the maximum amount of variables while you shoot, so that the rifle can show you what it is capable of in an environment that is as close to a vacuum as possible (i.e. minus wind and other environmental influences). Shooting standing or even prone will always introduce variables in the operators technique which will never be 100% consistent. If you were out drinking the night before, your stability is going to be affected, you'll be more likely to fatigue, your sight will be affected etc. I think that ultimately, you would reach the same result, but the amount of time and ammo it would take for the mean in your arch to show an average is going to take much longer to expose. By locking the rifle down, you are much closer to showing the rifles true capabilities without variables, so that you can concentrate on adjusting for the KNOWN variables, such as wind, bullet drop, etc. In theory, zeroing the rifle should take much less than 50 rounds. Just my 2 cents.

[Willie D 2]

Your final zeroing should be from how you intend to shoot (standing, whatever), but zeroing from the bench is fine because it removes (mostly) one variable to your shot placement. I myself wouldn't do most my zeroing from standing because fatigue is an issue for me before too long.

 

 

 

Also, using mixed ammo almost certainly worsened your results. Different ammo shoots differently.

[BuzzKillin 21]

BuzzKillin.. Im going to go ahead and second what GunnyR said,, Prone position, Hasty or loop sling. Why would anyone sit on a bench and rest the weapon on a block or vise or whatever they choose for a zero?? I think a rifle should be zero'd to the shooter and his natural point of aim.. and that is where CONSISTENCY comes in. and it takes time also. Prone position, hasty or loop sling, and take your time.... It took me a good 45-50 rounds and maybe 2 hours until I was satisfied with my zero.. and I only made one adjustment the whole time. Good Luck!

 

Also, I don't GunnyR was saying that I SHOULD zero lying prone. I think he was making a guess at how I was situated while I was firing my test rounds.... that's just how I read his post.

[loki0629 55]

BuzzKillin.. Im going to go ahead and second what GunnyR said,, Prone position, Hasty or loop sling. Why would anyone sit on a bench and rest the weapon on a block or vise or whatever they choose for a zero?? I think a rifle should be zero'd to the shooter and his natural point of aim.. and that is where CONSISTENCY comes in. and it takes time also. Prone position, hasty or loop sling, and take your time.... It took me a good 45-50 rounds and maybe 2 hours until I was satisfied with my zero.. and I only made one adjustment the whole time. Good Luck!

I've thought about this and I think the vices, benches, etc are good for evaluating the weapon's mechanical zero. When I bought a .22 rifle and tried to zero it like the way I knew how to zero, I had some problems dealing with the values on the little screw adjustment doohickey. Definitely not as precise as the elevation and windage knobs found on AR's. At one point, I ended up using a bench rest to see if the groups were me or the rifle. It turned out to be me. But once I figured that out I went back to zeroing it based on how I held the rifle. For me, the mechanical zero and my personal zero were off by about 6" right and very low at 100yds. But for some people, the variance between the two is a lot less and may not exist at all. I've coached some shooters whose 200yd zero was not much off from 8/3-2 at the rear elevation, centered windage, and flush front sight post (on an AR). Whereas for me I was about 8 clicks up on elevation and 12 clicks left. I also used to shoot with my nose touching the charging handle to maintain a consistent cheek weld.

 

Oh and the the AK sight system sucks nuts. I have a windage adjustable rear sight installed on my .s308 and it made a world of difference as opposed to relying solely on the front sight for left/right adjustment.

[BuzzKillin 21]

BuzzKillin.. Im going to go ahead and second what GunnyR said,, Prone position, Hasty or loop sling. Why would anyone sit on a bench and rest the weapon on a block or vise or whatever they choose for a zero?? I think a rifle should be zero'd to the shooter and his natural point of aim.. and that is where CONSISTENCY comes in. and it takes time also. Prone position, hasty or loop sling, and take your time.... It took me a good 45-50 rounds and maybe 2 hours until I was satisfied with my zero.. and I only made one adjustment the whole time. Good Luck!

I've thought about this and I think the vices, benches, etc are good for evaluating the weapon's mechanical zero. When I bought a .22 rifle and tried to zero it like the way I knew how to zero, I had some problems dealing with the values on the little screw adjustment doohickey. Definitely not as precise as the elevation and windage knobs found on AR's. At one point, I ended up using a bench rest to see if the groups were me or the rifle. It turned out to be me. But once I figured that out I went back to zeroing it based on how I held the rifle. For me, the mechanical zero and my personal zero were off by about 6" right and very low at 100yds. But for some people, the variance between the two is a lot less and may not exist at all. I've coached some shooters whose 200yd zero was not much off from 8/3-2 at the rear elevation, centered windage, and flush front sight post (on an AR). Whereas for me I was about 8 clicks up on elevation and 12 clicks left. I also used to shoot with my nose touching the charging handle to maintain a consistent cheek weld.

 

Oh and the the AK sight system sucks nuts. I have a windage adjustable rear sight installed on my .s308 and it made a world of difference as opposed to relying solely on the front sight for left/right adjustment.

 

LOL.. "AK sight system sucks nuts"... Roger that. I think I'm going to eventually be looking at a Big Dot setup. I think Post-Apoc uses those and likes them if I'm not mistaken.

 

Personally, I AM looking for the mechanical zero. I have many reasons for wanting to adjust ME to the gun, rather than the gun to me. First, the gun is more "perfect" than I am in it's operation. I want to adjust MY technique so that I am consistently able to shoot straight, regardless of the weapon, which brings the next reason.. Second, if you adjust the gun to your own "imperfect" technique, then your ability to switch weapons for battlefield pickups etc. is limited, and could make a BIG difference in even your survivability. Third, by adjusting the gun to you, you are really just masking flaws in your technique (not you personally, just in general) and you will be more likely to continue with potential bad habits. The consequence of bad technique can of course make a big difference in your accuracy.

 

Adjusting the rifle to your own personal style is imho the equivalent of playing pool with a modified curved pool cue because you don't want to learn proper stance, stroke, etc. You may be able to learn to shoot straight, but the problem is, if you have to pick up a bar cue at some point, you could find yourself truly hosed.

[mstranglr 9]

I like the AK sights, and am very accurate with open sights in general on all rifles. The problem is the distance away from the eye for the rear sight on an AK, which big dots and peep sights will not fix. Getting a "skinny" front sight post helps a great deal for accuracy at longer distances, but big dots decrease accuracy at long distance because the front sight post covers more of the target. For CQB, the AK sights rock because all you have to do is index the front sight prongs on center mass and fire away; faster than an aimpoint.

 

Its the same sight picture you get with a Swiss K31, a Mauser K98, or a Springrield 1903 - but no one would dare call those sights inaccuarate. And open sights are very fast, just like using a pistol.

 

As mentioned, ammo is also important if you care about group size. Winchester ammo groups half of what Wolf does, and DPX groups even better than that, but both are too expensive to plink or train with.

 

At the beginning of the first AK course I took, everyone was bitching about AK sights and how bad the guns shoot, but at the end of the last day the whole class was hitting the 300 yard plate with ease using iron sights and cheap ammo. Trust me, open sights are very usable when you get used to them.

 

Also remember that I have seen AKs, ARs, Garands, FALs, and M1As that just shoot like shit. You always run a risk of getting one of these when you buy a gun.

[BuzzKillin 21]

I like the AK sights, and am very accurate with open sights in general on all rifles. The problem is the distance away from the eye for the rear sight on an AK, which big dots and peep sights will not fix. Getting a "skinny" front sight post helps a great deal for accuracy at longer distances, but big dots decrease accuracy at long distance because the front sight post covers more of the target. For CQB, the AK sights rock because all you have to do is index the front sight prongs on center mass and fire away; faster than an aimpoint.

 

Its the same sight picture you get with a Swiss K31, a Mauser K98, or a Springrield 1903 - but no one would dare call those sights inaccuarate. And open sights are very fast, just like using a pistol.

 

As mentioned, ammo is also important if you care about group size. Winchester ammo groups half of what Wolf does, and DPX groups even better than that, but both are too expensive to plink or train with.

 

At the beginning of the first AK course I took, everyone was bitching about AK sights and how bad the guns shoot, but at the end of the last day the whole class was hitting the 300 yard plate with ease using iron sights and cheap ammo. Trust me, open sights are very usable when you get used to them.

 

Also remember that I have seen AKs, ARs, Garands, FALs, and M1As that just shoot like shit. You always run a risk of getting one of these when you buy a gun.

 

Good info. Thanks.. Dragging us a little bit back to the original post though, what actual techniques do you use to Zero your rifle for lets say 100 yards?

[jmh151 0]

I have this dumb question again. When putting the rear sight at the 100 yarrd position (or any position for that matter)- do you put it in front of or behind the leaf marker? (behind or in front of the "1" for 100 yards)

[loki0629 55]

I should clarify that I think the AK sight adjustment system sucks nuts. I have no problem using the sights, but trying to use a rock or something to get your windage adjusted is a pain in the ass.

 

I do have the sight adjustment tool and I even dusted off my trig book trying to figure out how much a 1/2 or quarter turn affected point of impact based on the distance that it actually moved the front sight post.

 

I gave up when I remembered that I'd failed trig in high school.

 

Ok I didn't really fail trig but I did figure out it was easier to turn the screw, shoot one round, and adjust accordingly using the SWAG method.

 

BTW, for those not in the know...SWAG=Scientific Wild Ass Guess

 

 

jmh151, look here for the correct placement of the rear sight in relation to the distance markers.

[jmh151 0]

I should clarify that I think the AK sight adjustment system sucks nuts. I have no problem using the sights, but trying to use a rock or something to get your windage adjusted is a pain in the ass.

 

I do have the sight adjustment tool and I even dusted off my trig book trying to figure out how much a 1/2 or quarter turn affected point of impact based on the distance that it actually moved the front sight post.

 

I gave up when I remembered that I'd failed trig in high school.

 

Ok I didn't really fail trig but I did figure out it was easier to turn the screw, shoot one round, and adjust accordingly using the SWAG method.

 

BTW, for those not in the know...SWAG=Scientific Wild Ass Guess

 

 

jmh151, look here for the correct placement of the rear sight in relation to the distance markers.

 

 

Thanks!

[imarangemaster 315]

I always use the 200 meter setting on the rear, as my Ballistic calculator show 25 yards poa is 200 poa. I leave it there for a battlesight but can drop it to 100 for closer. One trick I learned was to use the AK 25 yard battle sight target I posted here a while back. If I wasn't still onthe road using my iPhone I would post it again. It tells how many turns etc. Can someone on a real computer dig up that thread and post it so he can have the link to the target?

 

I use a casual rest like the hood of my yard tractor and ALWAYS rest the weapon on my off hand rather than a sandbag. As I am getting old and wobbley I would use cover or even concealment if possible.

 

I agree about Ak sights being under rated. I have shot milk jugs at 50 yards just point shooting over the top framing it in the front sight wings. It is EASY to hit a man sized target at 50 or more doing that.

 

While I haven't shot any US made ammo in the Saiga, I have had the best luck with Silver Bear HPs.

[BuzzKillin 21]

I have this dumb question again. When putting the rear sight at the 100 yarrd position (or any position for that matter)- do you put it in front of or behind the leaf marker? (behind or in front of the "1" for 100 yards)

 

You put if front of the 100.

 

So,

100

(((((()))))

 

Not

 

100 ((((()))))