7.62x39 or .223???????

[concretus 0]

Hello all,

I'm a newbie on this forum. I've been reading up on the forum and there's a world of information!!! After weeks of researching for everything from a Golani to building an AR to a WASR 10, I'm leaning towards a Saiga. But I'm on the fence about which caliber to go with. 7.62x39 or .223. I don't want this to end up a 7.62 vs .223 thread......I've got an FAL, a Cetme, my target rifle is a .308 WIN mod 70 HB and all my hunting rifles are .30 cal. I like the harder hitting .30 cal over the .223, but I'm also a stickler for an accurate rifle. I realize the Saiga is more or less a sporterized battle rifle, and 2" moa would be satisfactory. I plan on installing a red dot sight for fast acquisition. any opinions or input will be greatly appreciated. War stories, pros/ cons....On a side note, what dia is the bore on the 7.62 rifles? .308 or .311???? Thanks for reading.

[PRISONSHANK 70]

i own .308, .223, and 12 ga saigas and the only reason i envy x39's is milsurp steel mags. if you dont think 5.56 has enough hitting power you should see what HP 223's do to cantaloupes heh.

i'm more than happy with the stopping power of 223 and its abundance of american and imported ammunition readily available. and the differences of mags actually have made me more in favor of polymer mags such as the bulgy circle 10's. the fact that they dont rust and take about every bit as much a pummeling as stamped steel mags actually puts them in favor in my mind. of course thats my opinion.

the groupings i can get with my 223 have made me more than happy especially when i'm dumping mags full of brown bear coming very close to the same groupings as a bushmaster AR shooting pricey brass cased rounds.

[concretus 0]

i own .308, .223, and 12 ga saigas and the only reason i envy x39's is milsurp steel mags. if you dont think 5.56 has enough hitting power you should see what HP 223's do to cantaloupes heh.

i'm more than happy with the stopping power of 223 and its abundance of american and imported ammunition readily available. and the differences of mags actually have made me more in favor of polymer mags such as the bulgy circle 10's. the fact that they dont rust and take about every bit as much a pummeling as stamped steel mags actually puts them in favor in my mind. of course thats my opinion.

the groupings i can get with my 223 have made me more than happy especially when i'm dumping mags full of brown bear coming very close to the same groupings as a bushmaster AR shooting pricey brass cased rounds.

 

 

Thanks for your input.

[imarangemaster 315]

One advantage of the 7.62x39 is that you can hard cast with linotype/wheel weight and load to 1600 FPS without gas checks for plinking. Makes it very cheap. I have IMI annealed brass and a LEE 160 grain mold. I haven't loaded any up yet, but a guy I know uses the same mold and 16 grains of 2400 powder and it cycles the action of his SKS. Tjat is a nice capabilityy if military caliber ammo gets banned from import. Russian HPs for the 7.62 are very destructive, also.

[555JM 10]

I think you'll end up getting both, so the question is which to buy first.

 

I have both and think the .223 is more accurate. Waiting to put a scope on mine to find out just how accurate. Even with irons and old eyes, it's hanging right around 2 MOA from the bench.

 

Indyarms made an interesting post down in the reloading section. He found that many Wolf .223 steel cases are boxer primed and appear to reload easily. No one has reported any boxer primed x39 to my knowledge. If .223 Wolf is reloadable, available and cheap; you've got a clear winner in the .223...if you reload.

Bob

[SaigaNoobie 66]

I'd go .223 for the lighter recoil and cheaper brass ammo. Sure, steel cased ammo is cheaper in x39, but .223 is cheaper in GOOD ammo than x39.

 

I don't own a .223.

[m1key 7]

Save up for BOTH.....and store up plenty of ammo.

Edited August 19, 2009 by m1key

[Bizzarolibe 5]

Well, I own both a 5.56 AR-15 and a 7.62x39 Saiga. I'd say if you had to have one or the other, stick with the 7.62. That's the caliber that the AK platform was designed for, and while .223 is a darn nasty round, 7.62 is superior.

 

And yes, I'm definitely a stickler for accuracy, but remember that a 3-4 MOA group is still very much less than chest sized at 100 yards. So you might get 1 MOA less out of the .223. Big deal. The sacrifice that you make in energy transference and the size of the hole aren't worth it to me. Here's something I wrote a while back contrasting the performances of these two rounds:

 

"Well, within about 200 yards the 7.62x39 round will hit "harder" than the .223, i.e., it will transfer more energy to the target. After that, due to the heavy weight of the bullet and the comparably lower velocity, the 7.62 will actually transfer LESS energy than the .223. So basically, within 200 yards the 7.62 transfers more energy than the .223, however past the range the .223 retains more energy. Keep in mind though that you're not going to be making any 200+ yard shots with either the .223 or 7.62 Saiga.

 

That said, the FBI has largely rejected the theory of energy transference in regards to what actually contitutes "knock-down power" in favor of the "bigger hole" theory, i.e., whatever makes a bigger hole is going to stop an enemy faster. A bullet from pretty much any gun does not have the force necessary to physically knock someone back. They may stumble backwards due to a psychological response to being shot (or even shot at in many cases), but it's not like in the movies where you can get thrown back 10 feet by a 9mm handgun. What actually "stops" someone, apart from a hit to the central nervous system (i.e., the brain, spinal chord, etc) or a psychological response, is a sudden loss of blood pressure, which leads to unconciousness. Obviously, the larger the wound channel the faster the blood loss and the quicker the drop in blood pressure.

 

Think about it like this: if you jam a knife into a coolant hose in your car, what happens? Well, obviously it will lose pressure and your coolant will not circulate. Same idea. So basically, a bigger bullet = a faster negative physiological response.

 

Now personally, while I largely agree with the FBI's finding on this issue, I definitely think there's something to be said for energy transference. In the famous Miami shootout back in the 80's, an FBI agent was shot through the neck with a .223 round. The bullet completely missed his spinal chord, but the energy transference was so violent that it literally knocked a couple of his vertebrae out of place, causing temporary paralysis. So my personal belief is that "knockdown" force is something of a combination between the two factors.

 

And also, what separates a .223 from a .22 is a 3x increas in velocity, as well as a different bullet size and shape. Now this means that 1) within about 150 yards the .223 will usually fragment, causing massive damage and 2) past that range, it has the tendency to yaw in a water based mediums (i.e., humans). So while the bullet diameters are nearly identical, the terminal ballistics are night and day.

 

Having said all that, if you want an AK get the 7.62. One of the appeals of an AK is the increased "stopping power" within 200 yards, and keep in mind that 90% of military combat situations occur within 100 yards or less. Sure, the recoil is going to be heavier with the 7.62, but unlike the .223, you will NOT need a follow-up shot if your first shot connected with the target ;-)

 

And one other thing to think about: the 7.62 round, in most urban combat scenarios, turns cover...into concealment."

[concretus 0]

Well, I own both a 5.56 AR-15 and a 7.62x39 Saiga. I'd say if you had to have one or the other, stick with the 7.62. That's the caliber that the AK platform was designed for, and while .223 is a darn nasty round, 7.62 is superior.

 

And yes, I'm definitely a stickler for accuracy, but remember that a 3-4 MOA group is still very much less than chest sized at 100 yards. So you might get 1 MOA less out of the .223. Big deal. The sacrifice that you make in energy transference and the size of the hole aren't worth it to me. Here's something I wrote a while back contrasting the performances of these two rounds:

 

"Well, within about 200 yards the 7.62x39 round will hit "harder" than the .223, i.e., it will transfer more energy to the target. After that, due to the heavy weight of the bullet and the comparably lower velocity, the 7.62 will actually transfer LESS energy than the .223. So basically, within 200 yards the 7.62 transfers more energy than the .223, however past the range the .223 retains more energy. Keep in mind though that you're not going to be making any 200+ yard shots with either the .223 or 7.62 Saiga.

 

That said, the FBI has largely rejected the theory of energy transference in regards to what actually contitutes "knock-down power" in favor of the "bigger hole" theory, i.e., whatever makes a bigger hole is going to stop an enemy faster. A bullet from pretty much any gun does not have the force necessary to physically knock someone back. They may stumble backwards due to a psychological response to being shot (or even shot at in many cases), but it's not like in the movies where you can get thrown back 10 feet by a 9mm handgun. What actually "stops" someone, apart from a hit to the central nervous system (i.e., the brain, spinal chord, etc) or a psychological response, is a sudden loss of blood pressure, which leads to unconciousness. Obviously, the larger the wound channel the faster the blood loss and the quicker the drop in blood pressure.

 

Think about it like this: if you jam a knife into a coolant hose in your car, what happens? Well, obviously it will lose pressure and your coolant will not circulate. Same idea. So basically, a bigger bullet = a faster negative physiological response.

 

Now personally, while I largely agree with the FBI's finding on this issue, I definitely think there's something to be said for energy transference. In the famous Miami shootout back in the 80's, an FBI agent was shot through the neck with a .223 round. The bullet completely missed his spinal chord, but the energy transference was so violent that it literally knocked a couple of his vertebrae out of place, causing temporary paralysis. So my personal belief is that "knockdown" force is something of a combination between the two factors.

 

And also, what separates a .223 from a .22 is a 3x increas in velocity, as well as a different bullet size and shape. Now this means that 1) within about 150 yards the .223 will usually fragment, causing massive damage and 2) past that range, it has the tendency to yaw in a water based mediums (i.e., humans). So while the bullet diameters are nearly identical, the terminal ballistics are night and day.

 

Having said all that, if you want an AK get the 7.62. One of the appeals of an AK is the increased "stopping power" within 200 yards, and keep in mind that 90% of military combat situations occur within 100 yards or less. Sure, the recoil is going to be heavier with the 7.62, but unlike the .223, you will NOT need a follow-up shot if your first shot connected with the target ;-)

 

And one other thing to think about: the 7.62 round, in most urban combat scenarios, turns cover...into concealment."

 

Thank you. That was very informative.

[DLT 1,646]

Agree, the 7.62 round will also knock down a home invader wearing body armor (like we have down here), where the 223 round may not (unless you take a head shot. which is tricky on a moving target). The thing down here on the border is groups of armed pseudo cops busting into homes, bounding and gagging the occupants, then ransacking the place. On some occasions they have tried taking people to hold for additional ransom. For the last two to three years, they have taken to wearing body armor in addition to the fake police uniforms. That was the primary reason for my upgrade in calibers (went from a 38 special revolver to a 45 apc, and 7.62 x 39 from 223). Maybe the calibers I've chosen won't penetrate the armor, but I know for a fact that it's going to feel like they got hit by a truck. That buys people time to escape and or follow up with another shot. I hate to think like that, but it is a sad reality.

[m1key 7]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot24.htm

 

223 sure as heck will penetrate...

[DLT 1,646]

Cool, at 7 yards that 223 round had awesome penetration. I wonder what the 7.62 x 39 would have done?

[m1key 7]

Hmmm...I think that was 58 yards. The 223 penetrated 2 1/2 vests WITH PLATES. Unless the gangsters are wearing three vests (they will be moving slowly) your rifle loaded with M855 is plenty potent.

 

Sure the 7.62 might do better, but it's not needed for tactical vest penetration.

Edited August 19, 2009 by m1key

[DLT 1,646]

I was referring to the 7 yard shot that penetrated all three vests. So yes, the 223 will penetrate a single vest with ease. I wonder how the 7.62 round would have done vs three vests at both 58 and 7 yards. Pretty sure it would have penetrated at least one vest.

[redsoldier 7]

I've really fallen in love with my .223 saiga conversion! mostr accurate ak I own, cleans up easier too!

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry400053

[concretus 0]

I've really fallen in love with my .223 saiga conversion! mostr accurate ak I own, cleans up easier too!

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry400053

 

 

Well I picked it up today! And I decided on the .223. They're both very effective but the thing that put me over the fence was that I have dies and a ton of .223 components from an AR I owned a long time ago. So it will be fun working a load for it. I want to thank everybody for there input and looking forward to Saiga discussions........ Cheers!!!

[m1key 7]

Congratulations. Try some Wolf 75gr HP. Curious if it works as well in yours as it does in mine...

[imarangemaster 315]

I tried to get some Wolf 75 grain when I had my Saiga 223, but that was in the beginning of the hysteria. I heard it works excellent!

[concretus 0]

Congratulations. Try some Wolf 75gr HP. Curious if it works as well in yours as it does in mine...

 

Thanks, I'll find some and try it.