bigsal 757 Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 Hey BigSal, every work for a police department? Have you ever been a part of an investigation that exposed police corruption? Can you name any law enforcement officials, that you know personally, that are involved in corruption? No, I am not talking about something that you got off of Google. No? So where do your figures come from? The answer is of course, no where. Where have gained this inside knowledge in to how all police think and act? Name names, please? Here's one more quick question, "By what moral standard does a proved liar gain the authority to denigrate a whole profession as thugs and abettors?" I don't have any cop friends. I am careful with the company I keep. Also, why are you calling me a lier? Sorry, BigSal! I thought I was pretty plain on my problems with your statement. Where do your figuers come from? How do you justify your claim that 3 out of 10 cops are corrucpt and the rest are just abettors? I mean unless this is based on some soruce, it can only be a lie that you just made up. My point is that you have no idea what you are talking about, you are just aimlessly slandering an entire profession. Not really, My uncle was a cop. Ive met many cops, and I generally don't get along with them. I'd say most of them (70% give or take) are not malicious characters. The problem is they almost always back up their fellow cops. You have a profession that has allowed that kind of culture to feed on itself. The OPs post is just another example in a LONG string of examples of this behavior taken at its extreme. Azreil, what % of your fellow cops would you say are corrupt, bullies who enjoy fucking with their fellow citizens? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HOWARD COSELL 155 Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 Panel clears policeman in accidental shooting "If Brian would have known there was a homeowner in there, he probably would have hesitated," Gannon said, "but if he had hesitated, and it was the (suspect), the outcome could have been tragic."Yeah, like the homowner could hve been shot or something A cop could walk into your house, pick up your child, and shoot it in the head and never see a day in prison. At absolute worst, they'd lose their job and get a year or two of paid leave before it happened. That's why you keep your door locked and if someone tries to break in they get the nasty end of an S12. I know there are a lot of good cops out there, but this kind of shit needs to stop. Some one who is supposed to uphold the laws should be at the very least punished for screwing up this bad and trying to cover it up. I wonder if there is audio yet? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng7XsaCreBc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 Hey BigSal, every work for a police department? Have you ever been a part of an investigation that exposed police corruption? Can you name any law enforcement officials, that you know personally, that are involved in corruption? No, I am not talking about something that you got off of Google. No? So where do your figures come from? The answer is of course, no where. Where have gained this inside knowledge in to how all police think and act? Name names, please? Here's one more quick question, "By what moral standard does a proved liar gain the authority to denigrate a whole profession as thugs and abettors?" I don't have any cop friends. I am careful with the company I keep. Also, why are you calling me a lier? Sorry, BigSal! I thought I was pretty plain on my problems with your statement. Where do your figuers come from? How do you justify your claim that 3 out of 10 cops are corrucpt and the rest are just abettors? I mean unless this is based on some soruce, it can only be a lie that you just made up. My point is that you have no idea what you are talking about, you are just aimlessly slandering an entire profession. Not really, My uncle was a cop. Ive met many cops, and I generally don't get along with them. I'd say most of them (70% give or take) are not malicious characters. The problem is they almost always back up their fellow cops. You have a profession that has allowed that kind of culture to feed on itself. The OPs post is just another example in a LONG string of examples of this behavior taken at its extreme. Please give me the name of your Uncle, the corrupt Cop, so that I make an effort to have him arrested for the corruption that you claim. I must say I am amazed, that these other cops you say you have met, just opened right up to you and confessed their individual corruption. I mean you don't come across as they engaging or for that matter clever on the Internet. I am also concerned that you could not demonstrate the source of your knowledge here, where you were doing all your slander. Frankly, your story is Bullshit. Like I said, you are just a liar and have no idea what you are talking about. I honesty apologize for having to make this strong statement on the Internet I would be happy to tell you to your face, big fellow. So, tell me more about you! We always talk about me and my profession! How many times have you been arrested? Come on, be honest, we are all friendly here! Azreil, what % of your fellow cops would you say are corrupt, bullies who enjoy fucking with their fellow citizens? You mean like arresting them for doing "nothing," like DUI, CDV, Drugs and stuff? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigsal 757 Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 Blah Blah Blah So in Azrial-land there are no bad cops. Gottcha. Thanks for calling me a liar, I'm gonna go cry in the corner now Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaPD 408 Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 Gee, another cop bashing thread. Who would have thought that this would happen It is pretty common knowledge that LESS THAN 1% of the population commits more than 99% of the crimes. The same holds true in any job, including law enforcement. LESS THAN 1% of the police officers make it very hard for the other 99% to fulfill their oath. Bigsal, There are more than one million police officers in the United States right now. Based on your figures, as many as 300,000 of them are corrupt?? I would love to see the your verified source for these figures. As far as your experiences go and since I am originally from the Northwest and still know many law enforcement officials in the area (including yours), I would love for you to provide the names of all the corrupt cops that you personally know or have dealt with. I would be more than happy to assist you in getting ahold of the proper authorities to start the investigation against them. I eagerly await your reply with the names. Now, for the record, I do not condone the actions of the officer in question and I will not lie for another officer for any reason. My post in this mess was just based on and due to some seriously slanted figures. Now, everyone go back to the normal cop Why, because I said so!! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigsal 757 Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 Bigsal, I would be more than happy to assist you in getting ahold of the proper authorities to start the investigation against them. I eagerly await your reply with the names. Heh, GeorgiaPD your one of the good guys! Best cop on these boards. But thats not saying much. That being said your 1% figure is way off. Most large cities have a dedicated CopWatch program (some have websites and keep databases) where you can find reports of police abuse all day long. Assuming even 1/2 are true thats a lot of corrupt cops (about 30%). Many departments don't allow the public to view on-going internal investigations, but you MUST ADMIT on any given day in any large city there are dozens of investigations regarding brutality, corruption, and other abuse of authority. I would wager that if even %10 of those investigations bore fruit, we would be looking at a population much higher than 30%. PS:>I forgot you were out here in Moscow for a while. Curious if you know any of the road pirate jerk-offs out near Colfax? They got me last year for $92 (5 miles over the limit on a trip to Spokane). Everyone out there on the WA side of the Palouse seems to be real concerned with lining Whitman County's pockets and not with the real crime going on there. But I guess thats the way they stay employed, by robbing people of their hard earned money. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaPD 408 Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 (edited) Bigsal, Oh, you could say that I was there for awhile..31 years Only 10 more days and I will be back for vacation and hunting And thanks for the Good Guy comment. I am what my parents tried to raise me to be and I still attempt to hold those values, but I am far from the best. Appreciate the comment though. And now I can see where you may be getting your numbers from and why they are so high. The way that those programs work are as follows. Lets say that I pull you over for speeding. I could approach you and we could have a civil conversation, I could answer all of your questions and quite possibly even get you to thank me (yes, it happens) after I issue you a citation or ticket. But, just as you pull away, I make the statement "Please drive careful" and you view it as sarcastic. You then file a complaint with one of the Copwatch programs. Even if there were no evil intentions on my part and I only made the statement out of genuine concern for your traveling safety, the Copwatch program lists the complaint as an active investigation for either harassment, corruption or brutality. Of course I would be cleared of any wrong doing due to either videotape or audio evidence (always one or the other), but these programs do not show the complaint as cleared or not substantiated. They just show that an investigation or complaint was filed. Crap, I could file a complaint against myself with these programs and it would show an active investigation on their stats. I'm not disputing the fact that you may have been a victim of corruption in the past, but I am just disputing the numbers that these programs produce. So in reality and outside of the numbers produced by these "For Profit" organizations that use your tax dollars to tell you how bad we ALL are, the true number of substantiated complaints where the officer actually is guilty of doing something wrong is less than one percent. And yes, I agree on any given day there are dozens of investigations about the corruption, brutality and abuse of power. I do work for a large department and every citizen comlaint that comes in automatically goes to Internal Affairs for an investigation. Our IA does their job and they do it well, I promise. But even they will admit that less than one percent of the complaints are valid. But the ones that are valid, well lets just say I would not want to be on that receiving end. You can make a quick call or email to the Boise Ombudsman, whom is notoriously anti police and was placed in this position due to the large number of complaints. He will even verify that the number of VALID complaints is far less than what these types of programs state. Once again, not disagreeing with you or what you may have been through. I just disagree with the way these programs produce their figures. It is kind of like doing your taxes and claiming a donation to the Goodwill. There is the actual figure that you donated and the pretend figure that you report on your taxes. Edited October 9, 2009 by GeorgiaPD 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
t165 30 Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 I like the last part of your post GeorgiaPD. My house consisted of a LEO (me) and a IRS Agent (wife). We caught hell all the time for laws we never wrote but had to enforce. And trust me on this...if you think the public is prejudice against law enforcement officers then the nasty comments and dirty looks directed toward my wife would amaze you. I have a close family member who is just now beginning to talk to Steph and I after several years because he thought she could get him out of his tax problems. Amazing, people break the law, sometimes even admit to breaking the law, and still gripe about paying the price. There is an old saying, don't do the crime if you cannot do the time. Not that hard to comprehend. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DogMan 2,343 Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 I'm going to intentionally try to avoid anything that sounds like cop-bashing here. Lets see if I can pull this off. We can argue about numbers and percentages all day long but the truth of the matter is, like all other crime, nobody really knows what kind of numbers we are talking about because only a fraction of those who are corrupt get caught. And then we'll have to argue some more about what fraction that is. My feeling is that less then one percent sound really low, and thirty percent sounds really high. The actual number, which we will never know, is probably somewhere in between. And as I've said it before, I don't believe in the theory that there is this thin black line drawn somwhere that separates the good (insert profession here) from the bad ones. Its probably a mutitude of shades of gray. So when I think about crime and criminals I don't get too caught up in how low or high the crime rate is. The only thing that matters to me is that criminals are out there and I'm stupid not to account for that in how I protect me and mine. The same with corrupt um... (gulp)... cops or anyone else. All I know is that they are out there and no matter what the number is there is "enough" corruption and misconduct to warrant a good bit of caution and scepticism in cases where my freedom is at stake. I call that "living in reality" rather than in a fantasy world where all good and evil people are clearly indentified by white hats and black hats. And I say this as a %100 law abiding citizen. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
diamondback 56 Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 Question: how many of those reports are racked up by individual officers? If the reports are 100 "fouls", it makes a world of difference if it's 25 guys with two each and fifty with only one, or ten with ten each. A lot of the guys who trained me on weapons were sworn and badged, though, so seeing things from the inside makes me in favor of specific accountability against the bad apples (be they individuals or particular departments, as has sometimes happened) rather than just denouncing the whole profession and everyone in it. That said, I see a "be certain of your target" rule violation here, and the "postgame" conduct by the responding officers is out-of-bounds IMHO. Although it woulda helped if the caller had told dispatch "homeowner is detaining perpetrator at gunpoint" or some such specifically identifying it as being the GOOD guy who's got the gun... Just my two plugged nickels, my opinion being worth exactly what you paid for it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigsal 757 Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 Bigsal, Oh, you could say that I was there for awhile..31 years Only 10 more days and I will be back for vacation and hunting And thanks for the Good Guy comment. I am what my parents tried to raise me to be and I still attempt to hold those values, but I am far from the best. Appreciate the comment though. And now I can see where you may be getting your numbers from and why they are so high. The way that those programs work are as follows. Lets say that I pull you over for speeding. I could approach you and we could have a civil conversation, I could answer all of your questions and quite possibly even get you to thank me (yes, it happens) after I issue you a citation or ticket. But, just as you pull away, I make the statement "Please drive careful" and you view it as sarcastic. You then file a complaint with one of the Copwatch programs. Even if there were no evil intentions on my part and I only made the statement out of genuine concern for your traveling safety, the Copwatch program lists the complaint as an active investigation for either harassment, corruption or brutality. Of course I would be cleared of any wrong doing due to either videotape or audio evidence (always one or the other), but these programs do not show the complaint as cleared or not substantiated. They just show that an investigation or complaint was filed. Crap, I could file a complaint against myself with these programs and it would show an active investigation on their stats. I'm not disputing the fact that you may have been a victim of corruption in the past, but I am just disputing the numbers that these programs produce. So in reality and outside of the numbers produced by these "For Profit" organizations that use your tax dollars to tell you how bad we ALL are, the true number of substantiated complaints where the officer actually is guilty of doing something wrong is less than one percent. And yes, I agree on any given day there are dozens of investigations about the corruption, brutality and abuse of power. I do work for a large department and every citizen comlaint that comes in automatically goes to Internal Affairs for an investigation. Our IA does their job and they do it well, I promise. But even they will admit that less than one percent of the complaints are valid. But the ones that are valid, well lets just say I would not want to be on that receiving end. You can make a quick call or email to the Boise Ombudsman, whom is notoriously anti police and was placed in this position due to the large number of complaints. He will even verify that the number of VALID complaints is far less than what these types of programs state. Once again, not disagreeing with you or what you may have been through. I just disagree with the way these programs produce their figures. It is kind of like doing your taxes and claiming a donation to the Goodwill. There is the actual figure that you donated and the pretend figure that you report on your taxes. I appreciate your point of view as always bro, but there are a lot of bad apples. I think 30% is more than generous, even if the copwatch numbers are inflated. The fact that we get a new outrage every day or so like the one the OP originally posted about suggests a much larger problem with the type of person drawn to law enforcement. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) Heh, GeorgiaPD your one of the good guys! Best cop on these boards. But thats not saying much. That being said your 1% figure is way off. Most large cities have a dedicated CopWatch program (some have websites and keep databases) where you can find reports of police abuse all day long. Assuming even 1/2 are true thats a lot of corrupt cops (about 30%). Many departments don't allow the public to view on-going internal investigations, but you MUST ADMIT on any given day in any large city there are dozens of investigations regarding brutality, corruption, and other abuse of authority. I would wager that if even %10 of those investigations bore fruit, we would be looking at a population much higher than 30%. PS:>I forgot you were out here in Moscow for a while. Curious if you know any of the road pirate jerk-offs out near Colfax? They got me last year for $92 (5 miles over the limit on a trip to Spokane). Everyone out there on the WA side of the Palouse seems to be real concerned with lining Whitman County's pockets and not with the real crime going on there. But I guess thats the way they stay employed, by robbing people of their hard earned money. This is it? This is your reason for coming here and trashing a whole profession with your fake statistics? This is the thuggish violation of your civil rights that you are bemoaning? You got a speeding ticket that you did not agree with! Did you fight it? If so why are you not here bashing the Judge? Did you call the Mayor's Office? No? So your only plan is to come here and insult your fellow board members with lies? You liberals run true to form, you speed and it is everyone Else's fault that you got caught! Now, philosophically, I agree with you. I hate seeing a law enforcement agency used for tax collection at gun point. Now, given your propensity for making up numbers and "facts", I have to say that 5 MPH over is a minor amount to ticket a citizen over. But if you are nieve enough at your age to belive that a guy with a bubblegum machine on his roof would rather be out ticketing you then sitting in a Waffle House chatting with a hot watress, you are delusional. Police have a job to do and that it to enforce the laws that are made by the politicians that you elect. While there are certainly are limits on just what I will enforce because it has passed as a law, blame yourself here for being a part of the problem that allows this type of revenue collection to go on. Call the real people in power and tell them how you want your tax money being spent in regards to what officers do. As I have said, it makes as much sense as getting mad at my boot because I kick you in the jewels! Edited October 10, 2009 by Azrial Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Reverendfranz 160 Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 Oddly enough, as i come off as Anti-cop, ALOT, (and generaly agree, in reference to the industry, and the laws that are created for it, not the individuals) I agree with everything posted in defense of individual officers, and the profession as a whole, that has been in those last few posts. Cops are not evil, are normal people, and on the whole are there because they think they can do a good job. However, i think cases like this very clearly show that the "Holding eachother accountable" system is in shambles. The officer fucked up, big. Very Big, and has had no professional or criminal reprecussions, exactly because he is being held accountable only by the people who work the same side of the street as he does. The problem in this case, however, is not currupt cops out to raise money and seize assets, or trying to shake down John Q. Citizen so as to assert how powerful he feels, and trying to tie it into that, is more than a bit weak. The problem in this case, IMHO comes down to a training problem. Someone in the "What branch did you serve in" thread i think said it best. Cops dont have the same training to remove the emotional response, and are not to the same level of automatic precision as those in the armed services. He did not identify himself, which he should have, automatically, and he let fear, stupid irrational disregard for procedure and his responsibility as a peace officer override what he should have known is his job, and he seriously injured (almost murdered) an inocent civilian because he heard some screaming or yelling, and wasnt in the condition to perform his job in those conditions. The dispatch, also, seriously failed his own training, through a lack of discipline, to adequately apprise the arriving officers of the situation, leading to a situation the officer was unable to think through, as he was trained to do, on his own. This lack of ability, and discipline should have been identified and either been beaten out of both of them, or forced them out of service. Since that was not done, i am APPALLED, that once such poor discipline was so clearly demonstrated, and someone so dearly had to pay the price for that failing, that NOTHING has been done to correct it, and that it is shrugged off by a review board, as being justified. That man should not be a cop, he should not have been allowed to be a cop, and gotten as far along as he did, and he most certainly should not be a cop now, as his job places him in dangerous situations he is not qualified or capable of handling without being a threat to those people he is supposed to be serving. The review board thinks that it was just a mistake, and nothing more. It was a mistake, but when I make a mistake, i am still held accountable for that mistake, and i definitely could not get away with shooting an unarmed man in the back, because i was scared. Why does the review board hold such a double standard, and why does it seem such a lax standard is so much the norm, if it isn't "protecting our own"? That, does not, however, in any way, translate to Cops are Pieces of Shit, who want to shoot you in the back, and murder your children, and any attempt to make it so is disingenuous at best, and vile slander, as has been said, at worst. But, as I've stated before, thats normal for any society that doesn't take personal responsibility for its actions, and defers that responsibility to the state, who then hires ordinary people, who are going to fuck up, and contain a certain percentage of people who are not cut out for, or capable of performing their duties as is needed. Those people do fuck up, and there is corruption, and instead of it being seen as that, the monopoly on that responsibility makes it seem like the entire monolpoly bares the brunt of the blame, as individuals are no longer taking their own responsibility, and everyone seems to think its some "group"'s problem, as individuals are mostly ignored. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigsal 757 Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 Heh, GeorgiaPD your one of the good guys! Best cop on these boards. But thats not saying much. That being said your 1% figure is way off. Most large cities have a dedicated CopWatch program (some have websites and keep databases) where you can find reports of police abuse all day long. Assuming even 1/2 are true thats a lot of corrupt cops (about 30%). Many departments don't allow the public to view on-going internal investigations, but you MUST ADMIT on any given day in any large city there are dozens of investigations regarding brutality, corruption, and other abuse of authority. I would wager that if even %10 of those investigations bore fruit, we would be looking at a population much higher than 30%. PS:>I forgot you were out here in Moscow for a while. Curious if you know any of the road pirate jerk-offs out near Colfax? They got me last year for $92 (5 miles over the limit on a trip to Spokane). Everyone out there on the WA side of the Palouse seems to be real concerned with lining Whitman County's pockets and not with the real crime going on there. But I guess thats the way they stay employed, by robbing people of their hard earned money. This is it? This is your reason for coming here and trashing a whole profession with your fake statistics? This is the thuggish violation of your civil rights that you are bemoaning? You got a speeding ticket that you did not agree with! Did you fight it? If so why are you not here bashing the Judge? Did you call the Mayor's Office? No? So your only plan is to come here and insult your fellow board members with lies? You liberals run true to form, you speed and it is everyone Else's fault that you got caught! Now, philosophically, I agree with you. I hate seeing a law enforcement agency used for tax collection at gun point. Now, given your propensity for making up numbers and "facts", I have to say that 5 MPH over is a minor amount to ticket a citizen over. But if you are nieve enough at your age to belive that a guy with a bubblegum machine on his roof would rather be out ticketing you then sitting in a Waffle House chatting with a hot watress, you are delusional. Police have a job to do and that it to enforce the laws that are made by the politicians that you elect. While there are certainly are limits on just what I will enforce because it has passed as a law, blame yourself here for being a part of the problem that allows this type of revenue collection to go on. Call the real people in power and tell them how you want your tax money being spent in regards to what officers do. As I have said, it makes as much sense as getting mad at my boot because I kick you in the jewels! Azrial:> Like I said 30% is generous. The fact that we get outrages like the one the OP posted about (try to stay on topic kiddo) nearly every day really does speak volumes about the type of person that goes into law enforcement. Again, not saying all cops are bad guys, just 30% or so. Thats the 2nd time you've called me a lier Cojack, Im not sure I can keep thinking so highly of you now. You are on notice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRt0icj1nsE Quote Link to post Share on other sites
t165 30 Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) ReverendFranz, anyone who attempts to try and convince you the military is somehow "better trained" at removing themselves from an emotional situation does not know "anything" about domestic law enforcement. I have also found many who insult law enforcement have, in their past, been rejected for law enforcement employment. law enforcement employment is much more difficult to obtain when compared to the military. As someone who has both it is not that easily defined. Military personel have a job, a damn important one, but it is generally acute. And so does domestic law enforcement, but the constant grind is more of a chronic nature, spread out over many more years. How many rape cases do soldiers investigate? Child molestations, murders, and god knows whatever horrors man inflicts upon his fellow man? Yes, MP's do investigate these crimes but the common soldier does not. The MP is a specialist in every sense of the word. And many MPs go out and gain employment in law enforcement after their military service. At least in the military I mostly had to deal with adults...well at least 18-30 year old individuals who thought they were adults. That being said, I would imagine military personel in an actual hot zone would be as bad as it could possibly get. I never had to shoot, or get shot, in either capacity. The jobs are different...nobody wants to die. I respect both. Do you know if Officer Lilly served in the military or not? Can you honestly answer my question? Your argument would be completely blown out of the water if indeed he does have military experience. Many LEOs do. The truth is you do not know for sure. Soldiers and ex-military are far more common than LEOs. Do you have any law enforcement experience? Do you have any military experience? This person who offered forth this sage advice concerning the better trained "detached" soldier mindset...does he have experience with both military service and law enforcement service? I think not! I absolutely hate to see either the military or law enforcement be defined in a bad light. And to be honest, some military experience, like some law enforcement experience, is pretty tame. And some law enforcement experience, like some military experience, is pretty damn dangerous. There are criminals and disgusting individuals who serve in both the military and law enforcement. Perhaps we should not be prejudice and start judging people on an individual basis instead of blanket insults. I do not agree with people who think a high percentage of United States Military personel are murderers, baby killers, or losers who were not smart enough for college. And I do not agree with individuals who think a high percentage of law enforcement officers are bullies, murderers, and corrupt. Okay, I smell smoke...something smells like it's starting to burn Edited October 10, 2009 by t165 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 Azrial:> Like I said 30% is generous. The fact that we get outrages like the one the OP posted about (try to stay on topic kiddo) nearly every day really does speak volumes about the type of person that goes into law enforcement. Again, not saying all cops are bad guys, just 30% or so. Thats the 2nd time you've called me a lier Cojack, Im not sure I can keep thinking so highly of you now. You are on notice: I will try and not have to go for three times, you help me by trying to use a few facts in your little rants, I mean instead of the stuff that you just make up. By the way, you mean Kojack... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Reverendfranz 160 Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 T165, i wasn't attempting to denigrate law enforcement training, perhaps i was unclear. You are correct, law enforcement is FAR more selective than military training, precisely for the differences in its training methods, its purpose isnt to force uniformity, and drill in that disipline, but to allow and encourage exceptionalism. It is exactly for that reason that it must be more selective, as not anyone can go through a law enforcement training program and automatically become a good cop. I would have to say that Officer Lilly's actions are proof of that, it does not sound like he was adequately tested, and when under pressure, he failed to perform. He shouldnt have been put out on the streets, if that is the case. If there is a better explanation, id like to hear it, thats just the understanding i came away with, in what is undeniably a terrible story. Yet, they arent as selective as they should be, it seems, as Officer Lilly is still working. That, seems like a problem to me. Thats all i meant, is that the training must either be more about "ironing out the wrinkles" or more selective, as applied to this case. I was in no way implying that the military would be better conditioned for law enforcement work, by their training, that would in no way be possible, as it requires more than a little independent action, and finese. haha. If Officer Lilly was a marine, the story might well be the same, but Arambula would be dead. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
t165 30 Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 It seems I'm having a hard time trying to communicate what I mean. We are all flawed and make mistakes regardless of training or what type of uniform (or lack thereof) we may wear. Ask Pat Tillman's family...and the subsequent cover-up. Does that mean the entire United States Military is a corrupt, incompetent organization? Absolutely not. It does mean humans make mistakes and are not always truthful afterwards. Pat Tillman was killed in a friendly fire incident which happens often in war. Tragic, but as long as men quarrel with firearms accidents will happen, wrong decisions will be made. Officer Lilly thought Mr. Arambula was the home invader who had grabbed the kid and ran to the bedroom. High stress, firearms involved, split second decision which turned out to be wrong. Anthony Arambula survived. Pat Tillman paid with his life. All the training in the world will never stop these kind of incidents from happening. And I think officer Lilly's admissions should disqualify him from street law enforcement duties. Officer Lilly may be the nicest guy in the world but the public will never trust him again after this incident. But, like the military did in the Pat Tillman case, it seems as if the City of Phoenix police department is more concerned with damage control than telling the truth. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigsal 757 Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Azrial:> Like I said 30% is generous. The fact that we get outrages like the one the OP posted about (try to stay on topic kiddo) nearly every day really does speak volumes about the type of person that goes into law enforcement. Again, not saying all cops are bad guys, just 30% or so. Thats the 2nd time you've called me a lier Cojack, Im not sure I can keep thinking so highly of you now. You are on notice: I will try and not have to go for three times, you help me by trying to use a few facts in your little rants, I mean instead of the stuff that you just make up. By the way, you mean Kojack... Again, Ive laid the facts out plain as day. I think 30% is more than generous. Personally I don't let cops in my home, I don't allow them to question me without representation and I sure as hell wouldn't let them around my son or daughter. You might want to consider the facts before running your cop-mouth calling me a lier. Also I hate you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cvhanh20 1,052 Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Ok, I'll tell you what really bothers me about this. Homecomming. A BIG deal. My Nephew is a senior in high school. He was suppoesed to "register" his date , who was out of town, by wed. He didn't get a chance to do it until Thurs. morn. The school officiacials ( the superintendant) told him no go. Bron, this is EXACTLY the kind of situation you can positively affect. Run for the local school board yourself and then change the rules. It's time to start throwing the bums out at every level. +10 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 As prior military (and called 'soul-less' by my ex-wife). I informed her very clearly that if you try to harm me or my family "you become a TARGET and thats it.. " She said that was very COLD and DARK. But AGREED with the theory. She knew I was nutty when we met.. We were discussing firearms and why I wanted them around the house and such, and why I practiced strange 'darkness drills' during the day. After a few times around you do learn to be 'soul-less' and mechanical abit.. IMHO.. Thats why I started doing PP work.. So I can guard people and count heads at hangouts, use mirrors, plot escape routes, and such.... fun.fun.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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