best&cheapest converted s12s

[saiga wannabe1 0]

who sells the best yet cheapest converted s12

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

who sells the best yet cheapest converted s12

 

When it comes to a quality Saiga restoration (conversion) "best" and "cheapest" don't realistically coexist in the same sentence.

 

You can buy cheap "conversions" for under $900. You will spend a fortune on ammo though - because cheap conversions often don't cycle as well as the stock "off the shelf" versions. A quality restoration done by a master craftsman costs substantially more, but you will enjoy it more, and will spend less in the long run because you will be able to efficently cycle virtually any inexpensive ammo.

 

So, the question is - do you want cheap, or do you want good?

 

If you want good, there are a number of vendors on the forum who do very good work. If you want cheap - just use Google. Just bear in mind that if you opt for cheap, you will get what you pay for.

 

Good luck.

 

WS

[nsa400 11]

Convert your own, to the best of your ability.

That would be the best, cheapest converted s-12 you would own!!!

OK I know smart ass mode off. Just check the vendors they all do a great job, or they would not be here!!!!

What ever you do enjoy your saiga they are great toys.

[Tx1021 0]

 

 

You can buy cheap "conversions" for under $900. You will spend a fortune on ammo though - because cheap conversions often don't cycle as well as the stock "off the shelf" versions. A quality restoration done by a master craftsman costs substantially more, but you will enjoy it more, and will spend less in the long run because you will be able to efficently cycle virtually any inexpensive ammo.

 

 

 

 

Just wondering what reasons you have for thinking a cheap conversion would not cycle ammo that a stock Saiga would?

 

A conversion shouldn't change the gas ports or really affect cycling at all. Save for if its a REALLY bad conversion and has splatter from welds on the rails or something along those lines.

 

And I also understand that some of the higher end conversions go through the gas ports and make sure everything cycles reliably but just comparing stock to converted with no gas system changes.

 

 

To the OP, I say buy a stock saiga and make sure it reliably cycles everything you want to shoot, if it doesn't you can always send it in for warranty work before converting. Then convert it yourself! Its not too hard.

 

But seriously, if you don't want to do it yourself all the vendors here will all do a great job.

[Shandlanos 1,470]

Generally speaking, best and cheapest don't coincide, with one occasional exception that I know of. If you want a very basic, bare-bones conversion, CGW has run a special a few times that, while very high quality, has absolutely no fancy features beyond the new trigger group, fixed stock and pistol grip.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

 

 

You can buy cheap "conversions" for under $900. You will spend a fortune on ammo though - because cheap conversions often don't cycle as well as the stock "off the shelf" versions. A quality restoration done by a master craftsman costs substantially more, but you will enjoy it more, and will spend less in the long run because you will be able to efficently cycle virtually any inexpensive ammo.

 

 

 

 

Just wondering what reasons you have for thinking a cheap conversion would not cycle ammo that a stock Saiga would?

 

A conversion shouldn't change the gas ports or really affect cycling at all. Save for if its a REALLY bad conversion and has splatter from welds on the rails or something along those lines.

 

And I also understand that some of the higher end conversions go through the gas ports and make sure everything cycles reliably but just comparing stock to converted with no gas system changes.

 

 

To the OP, I say buy a stock saiga and make sure it reliably cycles everything you want to shoot, if it doesn't you can always send it in for warranty work before converting. Then convert it yourself! Its not too hard.

 

But seriously, if you don't want to do it yourself all the vendors here will all do a great job.

 

I don't think. I know with certainty. The Tapco replacement hammer, hook, trigger arrangement is not made for the Saiga, has a different profile, and the hammer sits about 3/16" higher in the receiver than does the stock hammer. This creates additional resistance to the efficient movement of the bolt carrier, and requires a hotter load to cycle properly.

 

Additionally the factory gas port alignment is a complete a crap shoot. Some S12's will have a gas system adequate to overcome the additional resistance required to move the carrier over the Tapco hammer and eject shells, and some won't.

 

A good restoration addresses every aspect of the gun's operation. Simply dropping in a Tapco FCG, and bolting on a pistol grip and stock (the classic cheapo conversion) does not.

 

WS

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

 

 

You can buy cheap "conversions" for under $900. You will spend a fortune on ammo though - because cheap conversions often don't cycle as well as the stock "off the shelf" versions. A quality restoration done by a master craftsman costs substantially more, but you will enjoy it more, and will spend less in the long run because you will be able to efficently cycle virtually any inexpensive ammo.

 

 

 

 

Just wondering what reasons you have for thinking a cheap conversion would not cycle ammo that a stock Saiga would?

 

A conversion shouldn't change the gas ports or really affect cycling at all. Save for if its a REALLY bad conversion and has splatter from welds on the rails or something along those lines.

 

And I also understand that some of the higher end conversions go through the gas ports and make sure everything cycles reliably but just comparing stock to converted with no gas system changes.

 

 

To the OP, I say buy a stock saiga and make sure it reliably cycles everything you want to shoot, if it doesn't you can always send it in for warranty work before converting. Then convert it yourself! Its not too hard.

 

But seriously, if you don't want to do it yourself all the vendors here will all do a great job.

 

I don't think. I know with certainty. The Tapco replacement hammer, hook, trigger arrangement is not made for the Saiga, has a different profile, and the hammer sits about 3/16" higher in the receiver than does the stock hammer. This creates additional resistance to the efficient movement of the bolt carrier, and requires a hotter load to cycle properly.

 

Additionally the factory gas port alignment is a complete a crap shoot. Some S12's will have a gas system adequate to overcome the additional resistance required to move the carrier over the Tapco hammer and eject shells, and some won't.

 

A good restoration addresses every aspect of the gun's operation. Simply dropping in a Tapco FCG, and bolting on a pistol grip and stock (the classic cheapo conversion) does not.

 

WS

 

Look man, not everyone has a damn master jeweler available to polish and refine every conceivable contact surface in their gun!

 

That point about the Tapco hammer is well taken, though. That's what I used. Now I know why the underside of my bolt carrier has taken such a beating.

 

To the OP: as some have said, many site biz members offer the service and they do a great job. I advise ya to check out Peach State Guns prices/products.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

"A conversion shouldn't change the gas ports or really affect cycling at all. Save for if its a REALLY bad conversion and has splatter from welds on the rails or something along those lines."

 

Please allow me to be blunt. The above statement is absolute nonsense. The dynamics of the gun change when the stock FCG is removed and replaced with a generic US made AK FCG. As for the gas system - it is often barely adequate in most STOCK Saigas, and probably the most poorly understood area of the weapon among those wishing to do their own conversions.

 

The need to address the gas system has everything to do with optimum function, and nothing to with "splatter" - and who in their right mind would put welds on the rails, much less messy welds?

 

You are out of your depth and are rendering opinions without the underlying knowledge to support them.

 

You may mean well, but uninformed advice is often incorrect and therefore bad advice.

 

WS

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

 

 

You can buy cheap "conversions" for under $900. You will spend a fortune on ammo though - because cheap conversions often don't cycle as well as the stock "off the shelf" versions. A quality restoration done by a master craftsman costs substantially more, but you will enjoy it more, and will spend less in the long run because you will be able to efficently cycle virtually any inexpensive ammo.

 

 

 

 

Just wondering what reasons you have for thinking a cheap conversion would not cycle ammo that a stock Saiga would?

 

A conversion shouldn't change the gas ports or really affect cycling at all. Save for if its a REALLY bad conversion and has splatter from welds on the rails or something along those lines.

 

And I also understand that some of the higher end conversions go through the gas ports and make sure everything cycles reliably but just comparing stock to converted with no gas system changes.

 

 

To the OP, I say buy a stock saiga and make sure it reliably cycles everything you want to shoot, if it doesn't you can always send it in for warranty work before converting. Then convert it yourself! Its not too hard.

 

But seriously, if you don't want to do it yourself all the vendors here will all do a great job.

 

I don't think. I know with certainty. The Tapco replacement hammer, hook, trigger arrangement is not made for the Saiga, has a different profile, and the hammer sits about 3/16" higher in the receiver than does the stock hammer. This creates additional resistance to the efficient movement of the bolt carrier, and requires a hotter load to cycle properly.

 

Additionally the factory gas port alignment is a complete a crap shoot. Some S12's will have a gas system adequate to overcome the additional resistance required to move the carrier over the Tapco hammer and eject shells, and some won't.

 

A good restoration addresses every aspect of the gun's operation. Simply dropping in a Tapco FCG, and bolting on a pistol grip and stock (the classic cheapo conversion) does not.

 

WS

 

Look man, not everyone has a damn master jeweler available to polish and refine every conceivable contact surface in their gun!

 

That point about the Tapco hammer is well taken, though. That's what I used. Now I know why the underside of my bolt carrier has taken such a beating.

 

To the OP: as some have said, many site biz members offer the service and they do a great job. I advise ya to check out Peach State Guns prices/products.

 

PA - The problem can be addressed by taking some depth off of the top of the hammer, and doing the same with the bottom of the bolt carrier.

 

Being a damn master jeweler is helpful in that I have the equipment and skill at my disposal to do so. Also - deburring the receiver internals and applying a mirror finish to the contact surfaces will make the action silky smooth.

 

No welds to the rails required

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

 

Look man, not everyone has a damn master jeweler available to polish and refine every conceivable contact surface in their gun!

 

That point about the Tapco hammer is well taken, though. That's what I used. Now I know why the underside of my bolt carrier has taken such a beating.

 

To the OP: as some have said, many site biz members offer the service and they do a great job. I advise ya to check out Peach State Guns prices/products.

 

PA - The problem can be addressed by taking some depth off of the top of the hammer, and doing the same with the bottom of the bolt carrier.

 

Being a damn master jeweler is helpful in that I have the equipment and skill at my disposal to do so. Also - deburring the receiver internals and applying a mirror finish to the contact surfaces will make the action silky smooth...

 

Oh, there's no need for me to manually remove anything from my bolt carrier at this point, the hammer has done it all by itself, over the course of cycling a couple hundred high-brass shells through the gun. It did a rather crude, but acceptable job.

 

And yeah, your attention to detail and expertise is more than amply demonstrated in your desert mag dump(s) video. In that vid, your S-12 runs absolutely flawlessly. Your reaction during the part where you first start to bump-fire it is kind of funny. Kicked a bit more than you expected, eh?

Edited October 28, 2009 by post-apocalyptic

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Bump firing? Me? Well... not in that video. The trigger was manually operated - intentionally pulled every time I got a shot off (on target too!).

 

I realize that the rate of fire is exeptionally fast - but I truly wasn't bump firing. It does demonstrate very effectively just how fast a properly tuned S12 can put lead down range. Woo hoo!

[Zambidis 90]

The need to address the gas system has everything to do with optimum function, and nothing to with "splatter" - and who in their right mind would put welds on the rails, much less messy welds?

 

I'm pretty certain that he was referring to possible splatter from welding (and doing a very poor job) things such as the holes in the receiver not from welding on the rails. I'm not sure why one would be welding on the rails.

 

For what it is worth I have never seen a basic conversion not run a load that it would run prior to conversion. I polish the rails, bolt and bolt carrier on my guns anyways to smooth everything up. I have owned enough saiga's to know that each gun is unique but I think this is probably more of a problem in theory than practice. Has anyone actually had the experience of owning a gun that would run a load %100 that then would not run it after installing a US FCG? I'm not saying that it couldn't happen, just that I have never seen it or hear of anyone reporting it.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Bump firing? Me? Well... not in that video. The trigger was manually operated - intentionally pulled every time I got a shot off (on target too!).

 

I realize that the rate of fire is exeptionally fast - but I truly wasn't bump firing. It does demonstrate very effectively just how fast a properly tuned S12 can put lead down range. Woo hoo!

 

Well, from the hip it may as well have been bump-fired. When you can do that from the shoulder, then I'll be impressed.

 

Still, that vid's a great demonstration of the exceptional reliability, (firing sometimes problematic low-brass), you've achieved with your gun.

 

Mine runs similarly, but it's taken more high-brass to get her that way, (since I didn't manually polish any internals).

Edited October 28, 2009 by post-apocalyptic

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

The need to address the gas system has everything to do with optimum function, and nothing to with "splatter" - and who in their right mind would put welds on the rails, much less messy welds?

 

I'm pretty certain that he was referring to possible splatter from welding (and doing a very poor job) things such as the holes in the receiver not from welding on the rails. I'm not sure why one would be welding on the rails.

 

For what it is worth I have never seen a basic conversion not run a load that it would run prior to conversion. I polish the rails, bolt and bolt carrier on my guns anyways to smooth everything up. I have owned enough saiga's to know that each gun is unique but I think this is probably more of a problem in theory than practice. Has anyone actually had the experience of owning a gun that would run a load %100 that then would not run it after installing a US FCG? I'm not saying that it couldn't happen, just that I have never seen it or hear of anyone reporting it.

 

My posts on this issue are based upon a great deal of work and personal experience, and are not in the least theoretical.

 

I learned about the issue during my first S12 conversion. Running high brass through the gun was never a problem, but Wally World 100 pack low brass was another story entirely. It ran OK pre conversion, but would FTE on the low brass post conversion. The problem turned out to be increased resistance as bolt carrier moved over the Tapco hammer which sits considerably higher in the receiver post conversion.

 

Post conversion FTC, FTE is an ongoing issue for many people doing their own work. I'm actually quite surprised you've never seen or heard of anyone reporting it since the forum is full of posts from people asking for help and advice with these very issues.

 

WS

Edited October 28, 2009 by WaffenSchmied

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

I hadn't really thought about it before, but I did have a bit more trouble getting my gun to reliably cylcle Federal bulk pack birdshot post-restoration than I did pre-restoration. I didn't attribute this to the different hammer, (just thought she needed more breaking-in), as I didn't know that the Tapco sits higher in the receiver, but it does make sense now.

 

I overcame this problem with brute force, (my usual method).

Edited October 28, 2009 by post-apocalyptic

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

I hadn't really thought about it, but now that I do, I did have a bit more trouble getting my gun to reliably cylcle Federal bulk pack birdshot post-restoration than I did pre-restoration. I didn't attribute this to the different hammer, (just thought she needed more breaking-in), as I didn't know that the Tapco sits higher in the receiver, but it does make sense now.

 

I overcame this problem with brute force, (my usual method).

 

Right! The same way you overcame that aluminum Kross trirail Boy, you got those guys scrambling to fix the problem! Keep up the good work PA!

[Tx1021 0]

"A conversion shouldn't change the gas ports or really affect cycling at all. Save for if its a REALLY bad conversion and has splatter from welds on the rails or something along those lines."

 

Please allow me to be blunt. The above statement is absolute nonsense. The dynamics of the gun change when the stock FCG is removed and replaced with a generic US made AK FCG. As for the gas system - it is often barely adequate in most STOCK Saigas, and probably the most poorly understood area of the weapon among those wishing to do their own conversions.

 

The need to address the gas system has everything to do with optimum function, and nothing to with "splatter" - and who in their right mind would put welds on the rails, much less messy welds?

 

You are out of your depth and are rendering opinions without the underlying knowledge to support them.

 

You may mean well, but uninformed advice is often incorrect and therefore bad advice.

 

WS

 

 

WS,

 

Never meant any kind of attack on what you said. Sorry if it came off that way. I have never claimed, and never will, to be the endall source for knowledge on saigas, I was merely trying to see what else would affect the cycling in a conversion besides the gas ports. I was wrong about the gas system being the only thing to affect it, I have no problem admitting that. The point about the G2 trigger group is one I obviously overlooked. Thanks for clearing that up

 

The weld comment is from a thread awhile ago with a really poorly done conversion that was not cycling well. Splatter from the welds was one the comments from there. Even a noob like me knows not to weld on the rails lol

 

I have never noticed any change in cycling from pre to post conversion on my Saiga, guess I got lucky.

[RealRedbaron 3]

TAC 47 for quality work at a decent price. (That's who I dealt with and I can't say enough positive things about them)

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

"A conversion shouldn't change the gas ports or really affect cycling at all. Save for if its a REALLY bad conversion and has splatter from welds on the rails or something along those lines."

 

Please allow me to be blunt. The above statement is absolute nonsense. The dynamics of the gun change when the stock FCG is removed and replaced with a generic US made AK FCG. As for the gas system - it is often barely adequate in most STOCK Saigas, and probably the most poorly understood area of the weapon among those wishing to do their own conversions.

 

The need to address the gas system has everything to do with optimum function, and nothing to with "splatter" - and who in their right mind would put welds on the rails, much less messy welds?

 

You are out of your depth and are rendering opinions without the underlying knowledge to support them.

 

You may mean well, but uninformed advice is often incorrect and therefore bad advice.

 

WS

 

 

WS,

 

Never meant any kind of attack on what you said. Sorry if it came off that way. I have never claimed, and never will, to be the endall source for knowledge on saigas, I was merely trying to see what else would affect the cycling in a conversion besides the gas ports. I was wrong about the gas system being the only thing to affect it, I have no problem admitting that. The point about the G2 trigger group is one I obviously overlooked. Thanks for clearing that up

 

The weld comment is from a thread awhile ago with a really poorly done conversion that was not cycling well. Splatter from the welds was one the comments from there. Even a noob like me knows not to weld on the rails lol

 

I have never noticed any change in cycling from pre to post conversion on my Saiga, guess I got lucky.

 

No harm, no foul! We're all here to learn more about our guns, and to share what we have learned. This forum was my first stop when I began restoring S12's, and I continue to learn with every gun I restore, and from others on the forum.

 

Resistance from the hammer should have been obvious to me when I first tackled the problem. It was literally right there in front of me, and I still had to tear everything apart and put it back together five times before the light finally came on.

 

It was sort of a DOH! moment.

 

WS