To keep or not to keep BHO?

[MT Predator 2,294]

Title says it all. Running my S-12 yesterday, locking bolt to the rear with the BHO between mags. I guess the BHO was pushed too far into the receiver and it got stuck, couldn't return the bolt forward, couldn't remove spring, had to work BHO back into slot with a knife to get the gun running again. It works now and was assembled correctly. Is this common? I'm thinking of taking it out altogether and running a Krebs safety as I don't want that malfunction to happen if I really was in a bind. Thoughts?

[dlcjr1973 24]

Title says it all. Running my S-12 yesterday, locking bolt to the rear with the BHO between mags. I guess the BHO was pushed too far into the receiver and it got stuck, couldn't return the bolt forward, couldn't remove spring, had to work BHO back into slot with a knife to get the gun running again. It works now and was assembled correctly. Is this common? I'm thinking of taking it out altogether and running a Krebs safety as I don't want that malfunction to happen if I really was in a bind. Thoughts?

 

MT,

 

I'm not sure if it's common or not, but the same thing happened to me. In my case it was because the BHO spring slipped off the tab it's supposed to sit on, and the whole BHO became stuck up inside the receiver. It was jammed up so tight that I didn't think I was ever going to get my bolt carrier out of the gun. After clearing the jam (and to fix the problem), I used a pair of needle-nose pliers to slightly bend the tip of the BHO spring over the tab. I've put about 250 rounds through the gun since then with no issues. While the BHO isn't really necessary or traditional on the x39, I like having one on my S-12. It makes mag changes easier and is often required at certain ranges. You can always notch your safety lever to perform the same function, but I wanted to make the most of what Izmash gave me .

 

Regards,

 

Sapper

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Since the Saiga comes with a BHO from the factory, and has a pupose BTW...and I'm not someone to do a conversion "almost"....and niether am I one to just run away from problems...I choose to address the problem at it's source and fix it.

 

I realize this has been a problem on unconverted guns as well...

 

Let's take a look at the problem.

The BHO is sometimes getting accidentally engaged by human error, and also as a result of poor design.

 

So do I just take it out and throw it away? ....or fix it?

 

Let's see....when I'm driving down the road and here a strange noise start coming from my engine compartment....do I:

A. Stop the truck and pop the hood to check out what's causing it?

B. Just crank up the tunes to 11?

 

(Correct answer is A)

 

When I find out the problem is a frayed belt....do I:

A. Take out my trusty blade and cut it out of there....chuck it?

B. Stop at the parts store and get a new belt...install it?

 

(Correct answer is B )

 

 

To fix the dreaded BHO problems you simply:

A. Shorten and round off the BHO tab so it's not in the way.

B. Put a small bend in the spring at the tip, forming it into a hook that will not "slip" off. Or drill a hole through the lever and stick it through that hole.

 

FIXED

[dlcjr1973 24]

C76II,

 

I'd be interested in seeing a close-up pic of what your (or anyone else's) shortened and rounded off the BHO looks like if there isn't one already floating around. If you have a stock BHO you could stick in the shot for comparison it'd really be helpful, too. I was trying to figure out the best way to cut mine down, but I'm not too proud to copy someone more skilled and experienced than myself. Thanks!

 

Regards,

 

Sapper

 

PS - Site search came back with plenty of BHO-PIA threads - but I couldn't find any regarding this mod.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Sapper

[BpS12 512]

I've had the same issue. I first bent the spring, this helped, but did not solve the issue. Since I'm running on a Bullpup config, accidently hitting the BHO isn't an issue. What has been happening to mine is that the bolt tends to push the BHO up further than it should go when manually engaged. Perhaps the slot in the receiver is a bit too big. I then fashioned a bent "washer" to hold the BHO over against the wall of the reciever better. Again this has helped but since it is a loose fitting "washer" it has not solved the problem totally, just reduced the chances of it happening.

 

On my next BP stock, this OE BHO will not be needed, but for a regular conversion, I'd leave it and adjust it as Cobra recommends. And if needed, try fashioning a nice, snug fitting bent washer to hold it over better. The washer also helps keep the main(hammer) spring in place better.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

C76II,

 

I'd be interested in seeing a close-up pic of what your (or anyone else's) shortened and rounded off the BHO looks like if there isn't one already floating around. If you have a stock BHO you could stick in the shot for comparison it'd really be helpful, too.

 

I have some pics I can post. I'll look in my files and see if I can find something. If not I can put something up after I get home from the hospital.....waiting outside the pharmacy right now....

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Ok....back home...

 

Here's an old pic showing a few different BHOs together.

 

 

Let's number them top to bottom, 1-3. The top two (# 1 and 2) are factory and out of S12s. The bottom (#3) is a Warfield Armory BHO that used to be available for sale.

#1 is like the current design being used. You can see by the paint line where it is visible hanging out of the slot.

#2 is an older design from my AKS-12 (2000 MFG). You can see where I have rounded it off for more comfort when using a PG.

#3 is unmodified. You can see where Jeric has cut it back some in his design, also to make it more comfy. (and help prevent accidental activation)

 

The traces at the left are labled. You can see how the top one shows the difference in the BHO in the S-20 and the x39. Unlike the S-12, the only one of it's kind, the BHOs used in these guns (and also the .223, .308, and .410) do not hold the bolt back clear of the magwell. I believe this is on purpose to let the shooter activate the BHO in the S-12, while firing the counted last round, to make it easier to change mags. On the other guns, loading on a closed bolt isn't as much of an issue.

 

 

 

 

 

What I have pictured here is the BHO I sell, modified for S-12, which has the tab shortened for efficiency, comfort, and safety from accidental activation. Pictured to the left is a regular unmodified S-12 BHO.

 

 

It has also been rounded over to allow activation with more of a sweeping motion, without possibly cutting yourself on it by hooking it and gouging it into your hand.

I have also made a cutout to allow installing the selector after the FCG and BHO are in place.

 

Currently I am having to get customers to send me their factory BHO for these mods, until I can get a deal worked out with someone to stamp or cut me out a bunch of them to have on hand.

Here is a pic of some still unfinished ones I had made to try out a local machine shop.

 

 

It is not going to be worth the guy's time to do these though, unless I could buy a huge number of them upfront. I don't think I could sell that many of them, to warrant that so this is as far as I've gotten with that. I also don't care for the amount of extra work it is to clean them up after the plasma cutter roughs them out. Anyone with any ideas is welcome to PM me about these. I would like to give someone a pattern and have a quantity made up for me to clean up and finish for sale. I just don't know how many I can do up front...

[Paulyski 2,227]

If the spring slipping off is indeed the issue, you could put a small notch in the top part of the BHO where the spring sits. That along with a slight downward bend in the spring & the spring aint goin' anywhere.

This also makes the BHO spring installation a whole lot easier because the spring doesn't slip off the BHO while you're attempting to install it.

 

Here's mine that I modded for these reasons. :

[jimdigriz 580]

Title says it all. Running my S-12 yesterday, locking bolt to the rear with the BHO between mags. I guess the BHO was pushed too far into the receiver and it got stuck, couldn't return the bolt forward, couldn't remove spring, had to work BHO back into slot with a knife to get the gun running again. It works now and was assembled correctly. Is this common? I'm thinking of taking it out altogether and running a Krebs safety as I don't want that malfunction to happen if I really was in a bind. Thoughts?

 

I don't want anything on my guns that may impair their proper functioning. I tossed the BHO when I converted. I haven't decided yet whether to notch the safety lever or not. Using a chamber flag to indicate empty chamber worked fine at the range the other day.

 

Jim

[Nailbomb 10,221]

I don't want anything on my guns that may impair their proper functioning. I tossed the BHO when I converted. I haven't decided yet whether to notch the safety lever or not. Using a chamber flag to indicate empty chamber worked fine at the range the other day.

 

Jim

Yeap, I use the chamber flag that came with my AR.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

It's so disturbing when I see people post that they have "tossed" this or "junked" that all time on here. I spend a lot of time trying to track down odds and ends, and parts no one wants any more, so I can modify and reuse, or sell on here. Next time you guys get the feeling to toss your BHO, PLEASE toss it in my direction ok? I guess I should start a thread.....

[jimdigriz 580]

It's so disturbing when I see people post that they have "tossed" this or "junked" that all time on here. I spend a lot of time trying to track down odds and ends, and parts no one wants any more, so I can modify and reuse, or sell on here. Next time you guys get the feeling to toss your BHO, PLEASE toss it in my direction ok? I guess I should start a thread.....

 

Ha ha. I meant "tossed" as in tossed off my rifle. I still have all those parts, though I'm not certain why. You're welcome to them, as an appreciation for advising me on my broken tap troubles. Just send me a PM where to send them.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Jim Digriz

[volkov 318]

Your radio goes one louder too? awesome!

 

but back to your metaphor.. If my car starts screwing up, I take a look and find out that the thing causing the problem is something I don't really need or use but has potential to cause trouble, I'll probably pull it out and keep on rollin. Having said that, when you finish the LRBHO, thats something I would find useful and would probably install, but I've got the feel down now to load the mags without BHO so I left it out. Was going to notch the safty in case I ever go to a range that requires the bolt to be open.. but been lazy.

[dlcjr1973 24]

Cobra,

 

You rock! Thanks for the pics - they're exactly what I was hoping for.

 

Regards,

 

Sapper

[MT Predator 2,294]

To fix the dreaded BHO problems you simply:

A. Shorten and round off the BHO tab so it's not in the way.

B. Put a small bend in the spring at the tip, forming it into a hook that will not "slip" off. Or drill a hole through the lever and stick it through that hole.

FIXED

Negative on both of your solutions Cobra. The BHO was not activated by accident. It was activated on purpose after clearing the weapon so working on the tab is not going to prevent this. The spring did not slip off either. The BHO simply was too sloppy in the receiver, and allowed it to be pushed too far in on the inside of the bolt carrier guide and jammed the bolt carrier. I had to coax the main body of the BHO with a knife so it dropped back through the slot in the receiver. The spring pushed it back through though.

 

I have never seen a BHO on any real mil AK in over 20 years of military service. (That is dealing with confiscated weapons from bad guys as well as handling the latest and greatest versions from some of our newest "Eastern Bloc" allies). When I first tore into this Saiga I wondered WTF is this crap? Seems poorly engineered like an after thought.

 

I guess I was testing the waters to see what people did with this abomination on a firearm to see how may folks were vulnerable to a serious malfunction. My BHO is being shit-canned instead of being shit-rigged with washers and such so it maybe works on the range. "Kind of works or sometimes works with more tinkering" is a no-go with me on this weapon. It definitely should not be able to be engaged "by accident" while firing especially on a two-way range. That kind of shit gets good people killed. Michael Jackson's Zombies didn't shoot at people. Real life Zombies do shoot at people. Been there, done that. Sorry for the rant, passing on a little tactical mindset stuff on you guys as well.

[lg308 2]

To fix the dreaded BHO problems you simply:

A. Shorten and round off the BHO tab so it's not in the way.

B. Put a small bend in the spring at the tip, forming it into a hook that will not "slip" off. Or drill a hole through the lever and stick it through that hole.

FIXED

Negative on both of your solutions Cobra. The BHO was not activated by accident. It was activated on purpose after clearing the weapon so working on the tab is not going to prevent this. The spring did not slip off either. The BHO simply was too sloppy in the receiver, and allowed it to be pushed too far in on the inside of the bolt carrier guide and jammed the bolt carrier. I had to coax the main body of the BHO with a knife so it dropped back through the slot in the receiver. The spring pushed it back through though.

 

I have never seen a BHO on any real mil AK in over 20 years of military service. (That is dealing with confiscated weapons from bad guys as well as handling the latest and greatest versions from some of our newest "Eastern Bloc" allies). When I first tore into this Saiga I wondered WTF is this crap? Seems poorly engineered like an after thought.

 

I guess I was testing the waters to see what people did with this abomination on a firearm to see how may folks were vulnerable to a serious malfunction. My BHO is being shit-canned instead of being shit-rigged with washers and such so it maybe works on the range. "Kind of works or sometimes works with more tinkering" is a no-go with me on this weapon. It definitely should not be able to be engaged "by accident" while firing especially on a two-way range. That kind of shit gets good people killed. Michael Jackson's Zombies didn't shoot at people. Real life Zombies do shoot at people. Been there, done that. Sorry for the rant, passing on a little tactical mindset stuff on you guys as well.

 

 

something sloppy inside a AK ......surely not!

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

To fix the dreaded BHO problems you simply:

A. Shorten and round off the BHO tab so it's not in the way.

B. Put a small bend in the spring at the tip, forming it into a hook that will not "slip" off. Or drill a hole through the lever and stick it through that hole.

FIXED

Negative on both of your solutions Cobra. The BHO was not activated by accident. It was activated on purpose after clearing the weapon so working on the tab is not going to prevent this. The spring did not slip off either. The BHO simply was too sloppy in the receiver, and allowed it to be pushed too far in on the inside of the bolt carrier guide and jammed the bolt carrier. I had to coax the main body of the BHO with a knife so it dropped back through the slot in the receiver. The spring pushed it back through though.

 

I have never seen a BHO on any real mil AK in over 20 years of military service. (That is dealing with confiscated weapons from bad guys as well as handling the latest and greatest versions from some of our newest "Eastern Bloc" allies). When I first tore into this Saiga I wondered WTF is this crap? Seems poorly engineered like an after thought.

 

I guess I was testing the waters to see what people did with this abomination on a firearm to see how may folks were vulnerable to a serious malfunction. My BHO is being shit-canned instead of being shit-rigged with washers and such so it maybe works on the range. "Kind of works or sometimes works with more tinkering" is a no-go with me on this weapon. It definitely should not be able to be engaged "by accident" while firing especially on a two-way range. That kind of shit gets good people killed. Michael Jackson's Zombies didn't shoot at people. Real life Zombies do shoot at people. Been there, done that. Sorry for the rant, passing on a little tactical mindset stuff on you guys as well.

 

Good lord dude WTF?! Lighten up and do it your own way, as I'm sure you will....

 

Afterthought or not, the modern SAIGA is what it is. I'm on here day after day, helping people deal with problems that pop up with their SPORTER weapons, and converting them from the real abominations they are after they are raped of the correct parts so we are allowed to use them here in the US... into something at least friggin balanced weapons. There are some things you can do to fix some problems without just getting pissed at the design and throwing them out. I was just offering some solution's that DO work. There's more than one way to skin a cat. There's also a whole lot of variation in some of these guns. Apparently yours is one of the lemons floating around out there. Sounds like you fixed it good and won't ever have that problem again. Carry on.

[MT Predator 2,294]

Sporter weapon or not, the BHO should not overtravel into the receiver leaving you wondering how you are going to get it back apart. I know AKs are sloppy but this is one component that should not wobble and allow this to happen. Cobra, neither one of your solutions offered will fix this as the BHO wasn't accidently engaged by the tab being in the way and the spring did not slip off. It was still under spring pressure, just got pushed in too far. When I got it aligned with the hole in the receiver using my knife, it simply popped back into place. It worked for another 50 rounds or so until I was finished shooting without a malfunction. Maybe the washer shim fix would work, I am still opting to take it out as I don't want to create another problem with the FCG by adding more crap in there.