Range report Converted 12

[bamabound 0]

Hey folks, Took my 12 to the range and was disappointed/frustrated. It has 3 ports and I can kinda see 1 1/2 of them but can get a lock pic in the hidden one so I am assuming it is partially open. Polished everything, tromix parts.

 

It worked with high brass when it was unconverted, so...

 

Today I had only low brass and it would not eject at all. On #2 the bolt would almost get completely open, then hang. On #1 setting the bolt was completely closed and hardly began its cycle.

 

Will hit the ammo store tomorrow for some high brass and try again.

 

Thoughts?

[Razorback 72]

Give it some time and shoot it often. After it gets broke in good, it will probably begin to cycle the low brass, so in the mean time, try to take some time to polish the internals in between shootings. The rails the bolt carrier slides on, the under side of the bolt carrier, bolt, and hammer face. As it gets broke in better you'll start to receive a dividend on the extra polishing work. The low brass shells make a big difference, try something in the 3 dram equivalent, with 1 1/8 oz of shot. My gun wouldn't cycle the Walmart 100 round value pack ammo at first, so I used the Remington Premier Nitro Sporting Clays 1 1/8oz 7 1/2 shot loads. These are a lot heavier, and would cycle my 2 port vodka special before I decided to send it in for repair. Best of Luck, my S-12 is my favorite shotgun.

[bamabound 0]

Thanks

 

Took it apart tonight to check to make sure the 3 ports are open and they are.

 

How snug a fit does the puck have to be?

 

Is gas supposed to escape around the puck and push the piston rearward or does just the movement of the puck striking the piston the only force affecting the piston and bolt to move?

[mscottrogers 56]

Did you grind the conversion hammer to the same specs as the original. It could be a clearance problem.

[Wade Pruetz 103]

First these guns tend to be under-gassed, just because you have three ports does not guarantee that they are the correct size .093". Second, you should be able to see all ports with the gas plug removed if not I would remove the gas block and open up the hole to expose the ports. How does the gun hand cycle? Is it binding? If so you may need to deck the height of both the hammer and bottom of bolt carrier to reduce drag. I would start by making sure the gas ports are the correct size and fully visible, it sounds like your gun hardly cycles at all which is a pretty good sign it is under-gassed. Shooting high brass and slugs will never fix a under-gassed gun, all that does smooth out problem areas that your polishing should take care of. Also how do the sides of the fired hulls look? Do you have drag marks? If so the extractor fix will really help. Check out the posts they may help.

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=51183

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=51368&st=0&p=482033&fromsearch=1entry482033

[bamabound 0]

Did you grind the conversion hammer to the same specs as the original. It could be a clearance problem.

 

Hmmmm! Sure didn't. Will check

 

Thanks

[bamabound 0]

First these guns tend to be under-gassed, just because you have three ports does not guarantee that they are the correct size .093". Second, you should be able to see all ports with the gas plug removed if not I would remove the gas block and open up the hole to expose the ports. How does the gun hand cycle? Is it binding? If so you may need to deck the height of both the hammer and bottom of bolt carrier to reduce drag. I would start by making sure the gas ports are the correct size and fully visible, it sounds like your gun hardly cycles at all which is a pretty good sign it is under-gassed. Shooting high brass and slugs will never fix a under-gassed gun, all that does smooth out problem areas that your polishing should take care of. Also how do the sides of the fired hulls look? Do you have drag marks? If so the extractor fix will really help. Check out the posts they may help.

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=51183

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=51368&st=0&p=482033&fromsearch=1entry482033

 

Thank you for the links.

 

I've read so much I have forgotten where to find what I need.

 

I will check the hammer (grind a bit, polish a bit) and check gas hole sizes.

 

Hand cycles just fine. Throughs shells a good ways.

Edited March 16, 2010 by bamabound

[Wade Pruetz 103]

Sounds like it is under-gassed. Can you post a pic of the gun?

[bamabound 0]

 

Here is a pic of two pics in the unseen holes

Edited March 16, 2010 by bamabound

[bamabound 0]

I have a pic of the one visiable hole but it is too big to upload.

 

We used to use photobucket to load pics, but that isn't working.

 

Will try later with different settings on cam.

[Razorback 72]

Question: How snug a fit does the puck have to be?

 

Is gas supposed to escape around the puck and push the piston rearward or does just the movement of the puck striking the piston the only force affecting the piston and bolt to move?

The puck is a loose fit. It should slide back and forth as you tip the gun barrel down to stock down. You might also use a mirror to see the ports. I filed quite a bit off the hammer face, and then polished it with a very fine sharpening stone. You need to be careful though, too much off and you might have a problem with a run away gun. I pull the trigger back and hold it, then watch the hammer to see that it still drops below the disconnector when you pull the bolt all the way back. I filed it till it was just below the disconnector with the bolt pulled back, then did a nice smooth polish job. I did the bolt under side first, then on to the hammer. The picture on the left is the disconnector on the hammer and the bolt closed on the chamber. The picture on the right, is with the bolt on top of the hammer, you can see a gap between the disconnector and the hammer. Any gap less than this, is pretty risky IMO. Are you having fun yet?!!

Edited March 16, 2010 by Razorback

[SaigaNoobie 66]

Ok, do this test for me please.

 

Pull the bolt all the way back and SLOWLY ease it forward. If you get half way closed and then the bolt stops on its own, your hammer it too large.

 

Your hammer needs to be big enough that with the trigger pulled, the bolt carrier will push it down into the disconnector. just an FYI.

[bamabound 0]

Ok, do this test for me please.

 

Pull the bolt all the way back and SLOWLY ease it forward. If you get half way closed and then the bolt stops on its own, your hammer it too large.

 

Your hammer needs to be big enough that with the trigger pulled, the bolt carrier will push it down into the disconnector. just an FYI.

 

 

YIKES!

Did your test and...

With the trigger pulled, and hammer on the disconnector, the bolt WON"T go forward. It is time to measure original trig and new trig. And grind a bit.

Edited March 16, 2010 by bamabound

[bamabound 0]

Thanks for the pics

 

The hammer is definetly part of the problem. It's height is impeding the forward movement. I did notice putting this bolt in the 12 was difficult. I can do the x39 with my eyes closed

[bamabound 0]

Spent a few minutes more observing and grinding with fine sand paper. I am working the action by hand with and with out the spring. It is beginning to smoothly move with a little effort. However, every once in a while it jams up tight and I can't move the bolt forward at all. And the problem is....the spring walks under the disconector and won't allow the hammer to move down as the bolt travels over it.

Edited March 16, 2010 by bamabound

[sapper1371usmc 107]

Spent a few minutes more observing and grinding with fine sand paper. I am working the action by hand with and with out the spring. It is beginning to smoothly move with a little effort. However, every once in a while it jams up tight and I can't move the bolt forward at all. And the problem is....the spring walks under the disconector and won't allow the hammer to move down as the bolt travels over it.

 

 

Put a small outward bend in the right spring leg to cure this problem. When you move the trigger group and reuse the BHO lever, you must make the bend in the spring to ensure that the spring leg will not fall off during recoil. If you have any questions on how to do this, go to CSS' website, click on videos, scroll halfway down to where it is talking about the JTE springs. Although it is a diff spring, it is still the same concept. I have had to do this with all of my builds.

[bamabound 0]

Range Report

Ordered new spring from CSS, but the bending the leg of the spring works.

Found a box of high brass, mag shells and went to the range and the 12 cycled just fine. The grinding and polishing did not help with low brass ammo.

 

However after shooting the box of mags and then going back to the low brass, it seemed to have helped the cycling. The shells ALMOST made it out before being smashed by the bolt.

 

So...will work on the blocked holes per JeffD's work http://forum.saiga-1...showtopic=33836

[Wade Pruetz 103]

High brass hardly uses the gas system at all, thus it will cycle. However if you are under-gassed the low brass will struggle till you correct the port sizes. Did you measure the ports yet?

[bamabound 0]

Will work on it tomorrow.