Garys4598 1,065 Posted June 25, 2010 Report Share Posted June 25, 2010 Here is a copy of your pm you sent to me, and the moderators can verify this by going into my in box; so where does it confirm that you are not Estaban and indeed Robert????? Dear Selph,Thanks for the no offense remark. And I know you have said some complementary things about GoGun products before and thanks for that.However, I know and can do far more at GoGun than you know.I dont want Esteban involved in a Forum dispute.And Basscat was VERY selective in what he said.That being said if you want to "fix" the customers gun for free, that's a very generous offer and would encourage you to do it if you want.But please do not make any disparaging remarks or egg that Basscat on.I repeat the question to you, as a gunsmith would you deliver a gun you knew was unsafe even if the customer insisted on it? We have a no failure policy at GoGun, No failures period.I will look into this further but that gun was not even a GoGun project. GoGun was essentially doing what you offered, complete it for free.And if you want to blame someone for our zero tolerance policy of failure, that's me. I insist on it.And although this is not for Forum publication, he was offered a refund and declined, but we will no longer honor a refund request for custom work already completed and when the refund offer was already declined. Selph Arms LLC -- I feel confident (although obviously I cannot be "for certain") that the PM you received and posted above, is not from Cem Esteban. Having personally spoken with Esteban by telephone on several occasions regarding my rifle's conversion build status as well as having received a few emails from him, Esteban is not the type of bloke that would prepare and send such a lengthy PM reply. He's a guy of few words and rather succinct and to the point. So what I'm conveying is, in my honest opinion, the PM reply you received is from this character that goes my the moniker "Rabid Robert" and not from Esteban. As Tony conveyed most appropriately in his reply post (post #73 to this thread), Rabid Robert is doing Esteban and GoGun damage via his reply posts. I'm posting this reply because I simply do not want anyone reading this thread to whatsoever mistakenly believe that 'Rabid Robert' is in fact Cem Esteban, a.k.a., 'Jammer' within this forum. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vbrtrmn 167 Posted June 25, 2010 Report Share Posted June 25, 2010 I'm posting this reply because I simply do not want anyone reading this thread to whatsoever mistakenly believe that 'Rabid Robert' is in fact Cem Esteban, a.k.a., 'Jammer' within this forum. I skimmed the thread and was briefly confused, until I read it more thoroughly. The profile image that this 'Rabid Robert' guy is using is misleading and his attitude makes a false bad impression of GoGun. I'm voting for Moderator review, as this thread has gone way off topic and can easily be improperly interpreted. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ck43001 12 Posted June 25, 2010 Report Share Posted June 25, 2010 Okay guys, I tried to stay out of this, but this is going too far. I'd like to please ask everyone to take a step back and take a deep breath. Yesterday, Kelly, Esteban, and Joey (the OP) discussed in detail his build and what's been happening in this thread. It appears that they're all on the same page, so Joey can update the forum, if he chooses, when there's something new to report. 'Nuff said. To the claim that Rabid Robert is Esteban, that's just retarded. To the business members who've participated in this thread: Jack, for someone who's been in this business for 30 years, you should know these things happen from time to time. But, this isn't your concern, it's being taken care of, and you should have kept out of it. Tony, Esteban always credits a handful of people with helping him develop his Saiga conversion work; most of all you and Cobra. We have nothing but respect for your work with the Saigas, as well as your development of wildcat rounds and prototypes. Personally, I'd love one of your golf ball launchers, but that's another story. The bottom line is, the customer is unhappy with his conversion. If Joey isn't happy with his conversion, then E-Tac isn't happy with his conversion and we'll work with him to make it right. PERIOD. Craig Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted June 25, 2010 Report Share Posted June 25, 2010 To the claim that Rabid Robert is Esteban, that's just retarded. Nope, but he IS "antelope"..... He has stirred the turd here before.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted June 25, 2010 Report Share Posted June 25, 2010 Nope, but he IS "antelope"..... He has stirred the turd here before.... Ah, it becomes clear. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted June 25, 2010 Report Share Posted June 25, 2010 The bottom line is, the customer is unhappy with his conversion. If Joey isn't happy with his conversion, then E-Tac isn't happy with his conversion and we'll work with him to make it right. PERIOD. Craig I would say that covers it. Done deal. Now back to building rubbish....... Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted June 25, 2010 Report Share Posted June 25, 2010 Nope, but he IS "antelope"..... He has stirred the turd here before.... Ah, it becomes clear. I SHOULD note.... Same IP...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Garys4598 1,065 Posted June 25, 2010 Report Share Posted June 25, 2010 (edited) Nice to see you've made it back to the forum Craig (a.k.a., ck43001) if only for this single reply post. Take it for what you will. . . but it would be kinda nice (and likely prudent) were you or Jammer or someone semi-officially representing E-Tac GoGun to periodically, ever-so-often spend a little time here in the forum. . . for what should be obvious reaons. Just food for thought. Again, nice to see you back bro! ~Gary . . . Edited June 25, 2010 by Gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
selph arms llc 14 Posted June 25, 2010 Report Share Posted June 25, 2010 To the claim that Rabid Robert is Esteban, that's just retarded. Nope, but he IS "antelope"..... He has stirred the turd here before.... I am confused are you talking abought me? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted June 25, 2010 Report Share Posted June 25, 2010 To the claim that Rabid Robert is Esteban, that's just retarded. Nope, but he IS "antelope"..... He has stirred the turd here before.... I am confused are you talking abought me? Nope, you are Selph Arms.... Not Rabid Robbert or antelope. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted June 25, 2010 Report Share Posted June 25, 2010 I was fairly confident it was antelop (banned several months ago) when he started going off about safety. Then he threw in the "rubbish" term and sealed it. Man....I gotta get back to work....got a lot of rubbish to build. Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
selph arms llc 14 Posted June 25, 2010 Report Share Posted June 25, 2010 To the claim that Rabid Robert is Esteban, that's just retarded. Nope, but he IS "antelope"..... He has stirred the turd here before.... I am confused are you talking abought me? Nope, you are Selph Arms.... Not Rabid Robbert or antelope. Sorry I was confused. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rabid Robert 74 Posted June 26, 2010 Report Share Posted June 26, 2010 It's pretty remarkable to me that folks betray confidence by posting PMs sent in confidence, then accuse me of making public statements based on private confidential expalnatory remarks and in one case did not even have courtesy of putting the segway in. So it obvious to me most of you folks doing the dissing have no honorable principles and by association are not to be trusted with anything, let alone a firearm. But I like Bob Ash's advice, which I will follow. Fugettabouttit. EXCEPT for one thing, the challenge still remains, name me one GoGun part of anykind, Pistol, Rifle, or Shotgun that has failed. Oviously other gun smiths have plenty. No one has reported a failure with GoGun. Tony says its impossible. I say put up or shut up. Unless, like many forum posters, you dont care about safety. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted June 26, 2010 Report Share Posted June 26, 2010 It's pretty remarkable to me that folks betray confidence by posting PMs sent in confidence, then accuse me of making public statements based on private confidential expalnatory remarks and in one case did not even have courtesy of putting the segway in. So it obvious to me most of you folks doing the dissing have no honorable principles and by association are not to be trusted with anything, let alone a firearm. But I like Bob Ash's advice, which I will follow. Fugettabouttit. EXCEPT for one thing, the challenge still remains, name me one GoGun part of anykind, Pistol, Rifle, or Shotgun that has failed. Oviously other gun smiths have plenty. No one has reported a failure with GoGun. Tony says its impossible. I say put up or shut up. Unless, like many forum posters, you dont care about safety. I dont know dick about no PM's BUT..... you obviously were up to SOMETHING sneaky!!!!! I don't like sneaky....... Dude... I don't know where you are coming with all this passive aggressive crap.... Your post got flagged, I checked IP's... GUESS WHAT!?!?! You are supposed to be BANNED!!! yet here you are.... And you wanna question "Honorable Principles???? ".....Get the FUCK outta here!!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted June 26, 2010 Report Share Posted June 26, 2010 I disabled his posting ability so he can still communicate with his minions.. In the meantime the board will be free from the crap!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT0Ezl6Awkg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
joelrod47 373 Posted June 26, 2010 Report Share Posted June 26, 2010 (edited) Banned once should equal banned forever, Drew.......... Poor Esteban....... If this guy RabidRobert is the face and voice (and capital backing) of GoGun, then Esteban has my sympathy. (........notice we've not heard one word from Esteban regarding any of this bullshit..........) There are many excellent vendors here on this Forum that have excellent reputations regarding parts, conversion services, and customer service. (and don't jerk their customers around and fuck them over....., which I no longer see as being the fault of Esteban.) Order your parts and conversions accordingly............. And,.........RabidRobert, you should be used to people telling clients to stay the hell away from you, as reviews of your real profession fall into that category, as well-documented........... (and don't PM me anymore, either......) Edited June 26, 2010 by Jeaux E Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted June 26, 2010 Report Share Posted June 26, 2010 Question of the day: Can a sufficient volume of idiocy and hypocrisy sink a chain of islands? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Garys4598 1,065 Posted July 6, 2010 Report Share Posted July 6, 2010 basscat -- What's the status of your gun's return from E-Tac GoGun??? The 'mark on the calendar' has passed on the date when E-Tac stated it would be back in your hands with all corrections made to it. So. . . what's the status please? ~Gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
basscat 10 Posted July 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2010 basscat -- What's the status of your gun's return from E-Tac GoGun??? The 'mark on the calendar' has passed on the date when E-Tac stated it would be back in your hands with all corrections made to it. So. . . what's the status please? ~Gary It's been about 10 days since I last spoke with Kelly (new telephone contact for E-Tac GoGun). Apparently the Rabid Robert comments on this thread really shook things around. Apparently for about 10 minutes my gun was going to be returned as-is if I wasn't able to delete this thread. But Esteban called me and straightened everything out (explained Rabid Robert's position). Yeah, we're pushing 1 month behind the promised schedule (surprise). Several weeks ago I asked members for a little feedback regarding my color selection, but I guess with all of the hoopla it went unnoticed. I decided not to roll the dice on the colors not matching and asked Esteban to go black on everything. It's not what I wanted, nor what I paid for - but after 25 months I decided that the color wasn't that important anymore. But it was my choice to change it to black. We'll see how it turns out (hopefully). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Garys4598 1,065 Posted July 6, 2010 Report Share Posted July 6, 2010 Sorry to learn that your color selection isn't going to be what you had been envisioning for the last two-plus years. Nonetheless, I would agree that there is definitely nothing wrong with black. Not meaning to beat a dead horse but. . . did E-Tac GoGun provide you an estimated delivery date? I mean, now that all aspects to correcting the build have been agreed upon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
basscat 10 Posted July 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2010 Sorry to learn that your color selection isn't going to be what you had been envisioning for the last two-plus years. Nonetheless, I would agree that there is definitely nothing wrong with black. Not meaning to beat a dead horse but. . . did E-Tac GoGun provide you an estimated delivery date? I mean, now that all aspects to correcting the build have been agreed upon. Technically nothing has changed. Jokingly during one of the last conversations with Kelly I bet him $100 that Esteban hadn't touched my gun yet despite his purpose (Kelly) of the phone call was to confirm with me all of the changes and ensure the corrections had been made and that the gun would be shipped out the next day (approx 14 days ago). Well he called me back 30 minutes later admitting that he lost the bet. It was then that I learned of the supposed disruption in the building process caused by this thread. I was asked to delete this thread because it was causing a lot of backend problems at E-Tac GoGun. About 30 minutes later I spoke with Esteban and for the second time he promised that he was starting on my gun. Later on Kelly called me once again to confirm that everything was A-Okay (gotta give Kelly props - he's excellent at this position) and it was then that I decided to have the gun painted all black including the accessories rather than painting them Olive Drab and risking them not matching. Obviously it's easier to go solid black than two tone and less likely to prolong the process. At this point I just want the gun back. So it was my assumption that a literal 3 or 4 hours was needed to complete the gun (approx 10 to 14 days ago). I haven't heard from Kelly or E-Tac GoGun / Esteban since then. By the way if Rabid Robert is lurking in the shadows I'll take a full refund and no you never offered me a full refund. I won't even charge you interest on the $2,370 held for 25 months! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Garys4598 1,065 Posted July 7, 2010 Report Share Posted July 7, 2010 FWIW, I don't believe you can personally delete this thread (regardless to being it's OP). . . you'd have to request one of the forum Moderators to do so. (Not that I condone or support erasing this thread's existence.) . . . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ck43001 12 Posted July 8, 2010 Report Share Posted July 8, 2010 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Garys4598 1,065 Posted July 8, 2010 Report Share Posted July 8, 2010 (edited) Now THAT'S a DAMN FINE looking S-12!!!! Fantastic photos as well! . . . . . . . . . . . . The forend tri-rail extending beyond the FSGB is rather unusual. . . . . . Edited July 8, 2010 by Gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
basscat 10 Posted July 8, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2010 Is it just me - or does that Ultimak rail look lonely and lost? Looks like it's sticking out an inch or two beyond the gas tube. Here's a picture Esteban sent me in June 2008 prior to my order. This conversion was either shortened, or it was ordered in a shorter version. Anyone with Ultimak experience please chime in - or chime in with your opinions. Thanks Basscat Original correspondence dated June 3, 2008: Did you want the Ultimak rail HG like this? If so I will adjust your quote. At this point I quoted you the Galil hand guard like the picture from the link you emailed me (http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=25683). This shotgun is Texas compliant. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
selph arms llc 14 Posted July 8, 2010 Report Share Posted July 8, 2010 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
basscat 10 Posted July 8, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2010 Yes, I asked him if the conversion was legal (barrel length, # of parts, etc...). I believe if you have a short barrel you must get a special permit. I think that's a normal question to ask a gunsmith who's converting a gun in a major way. Especially when they're 3,800 miles away and you can't "drop-in" to discuss these things. So he was answering my question in that email (from 25 months ago). Anyhow, the point now is regarding the finished product and the Ultimak rail in the pictures. Is it common to leave the rail in the original length it comes from the manufacturer? Most, if not all, hand guards I've seen are flush with the gas tube. Am I being too picky or is this an obvious oversight? I see that Ultimak produces various lengths and from the picture I added earlier you can see what the flush mount looks like. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Garys4598 1,065 Posted July 8, 2010 Report Share Posted July 8, 2010 PM sent. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted July 8, 2010 Report Share Posted July 8, 2010 I could be completely wrong here, but I don't believe Ultimak makes a lower railed handguard for a Saiga-12. Only an upper, gas tube rail. So, in order to use an Ultimak lower handguard, you would have to use a rifle unit and modify the tongue to fit in the S-12 receiver and drill a hole to mount it to the gas block. You really can't cut it shorter to fit flush with the end of the S-12 gas block, or you would be slicing right through the center of one of those vent holes. Maybe E-Tac can just swap that out with a Kross or Chaos lower tri-rail and you would be good to go. That new stock is a shit load more expensive than the old one, the old one was a fixed unit and now it's a folder with a pig nose adapter, the old Tapco hand guard was pretty cheesy, and the new paint looks great....... And E-tac has your gun and your money at this point. This is probably one of those times to just chill out and make the best of it. It could get a lot worse from here, with the wrong move on your part. Tony 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madmax4x4 68 Posted July 9, 2010 Report Share Posted July 9, 2010 Am I being too picky or is this an obvious oversight? I see that Ultimak produces various lengths and from the picture I added earlier you can see what the flush mount looks like. After all of the this and the wait I wouldn't think so. You could buy a Kross later on It would look better. Good to see it is finally paning out for you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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