Optics and Mount

[ironlionzion90 0]

Hey guys, i am loving my saiga 7.62 but i am not a huge fan of the ak sights. I really dont want to mess with the stock irons and was looking at getting an optic. I will be mounting it with the Leapers UTG 5th gen quick detach mount. I am looking for suggestions and feedback on which red dot optic will be the best (accurate, durable, and reliable). I am really leaning to this BSA red dot with laser and flashlight combo. Anyone have any experience with BSA or this model?

http://www.opticsplanet.net/bsa-optics-panoramic-green-red-dot-sight-with-laser-and-light-combo.html

[jimdigriz 580]

Hey guys, i am loving my saiga 7.62 but i am not a huge fan of the ak sights. I really dont want to mess with the stock irons and was looking at getting an optic. I will be mounting it with the Leapers UTG 5th gen quick detach mount. I am looking for suggestions and feedback on which red dot optic will be the best (accurate, durable, and reliable). I am really leaning to this BSA red dot with laser and flashlight combo. Anyone have any experience with BSA or this model?

http://www.opticsplanet.net/bsa-optics-panoramic-green-red-dot-sight-with-laser-and-light-combo.html

 

What is your intended purpose for the rifle? If for home defense or SHTF - that is, if you think your life might depend on it - don't buy a cheap optic. They WILL fail you. As I said in another recent thread, better to become proficient with just the irons than to depend on a crappy optic. (And the AK irons are very serviceable, you just have to practice with them). Save up your money, and look for a deal on an optic that will last you for years, through all kinds of conditions.

[BrutalGardener 205]

What Jim said... plus, no offense, but that setup will get you an automatic membership in the great Mall Ninja Clan.

 

In the opinion of many people, the best optics setup for an AK is an Ultimak gas tube mount with an Aimpoint T1 micro-dot sight. If you want to check whether you like this setup without spending a lot of money, pick up a Primary Arms Gen 7 micro-dot.

[jimdigriz 580]

In the opinion of many people, the best optics setup for an AK is an Ultimak gas tube mount with an Aimpoint T1 micro-dot sight.

 

+1 to that. But see the comment after the pics.

 

 

A guy over at theakforum.net has a very nice looking co-witnessing side mount for the Aimpoints (and other optics) that mount via 30 mm rings. His next project is a co-witnessing side mount specifically designed for the Aimpoint Micro (but able to be used for other Micro clones). If it checks out as light and durable, I may replace my Ultimaks.

 

Jim

Edited November 29, 2010 by Jim Digriz

[corbin 621]

Welcome to the forum!

 

I've not tried that sight combo personally, as it's a bit too tactical for my taste. When I first got into tactical rifles/assualt rifles/urban defense rifles or whatever you wish to call them, I would often get the latest technical add ons. After some years of various training (and just personal range time), I've returned to the conclusion that many before me have..... that many of the things I added on were not used enough to warrant the added weight and bulk.

 

Having said that, the 5th Gen UTG seems to be a solid setup. One thing to note though: If you're wanting to add an ACE folding mechanism, it would have to be set up to fold to the right, since having it fold to the left positions the mechanism such that it sticks out from the receiver about 1/4" and you can't slide the mount onto the rail.

 

My personal opinion on lights is to mount them closer to the muzzle, since having them back so far casts a large portion of the light onto the weapon itself and creates a large shadow in the light pattern. I prefer a QD mount under the barrel. That lets you remove the light for other uses if you need to without having to wave your weapon around.

 

As for lasers, they're OK for pistols if you like. Maybe on SMGs/AOWs with a single mount sling when doing CQB. However, for the most part, I could be fine without them on almost all occasions. They can give your position away (as can a light), but unlike a light, they do nothing to ID the potential target. If you use one, I'd highly recommend a momentary activation switch and not a latching one.

 

Beyond that, I'm pretty much in agreement with what's already been said. I have an Ultimak with T-1 and love it. Granted, the optic can cost more than the firearm, but as Jim mentioned, cheap optics will fail, eventually. If you're going to use optics on a SHTF weapon (much like a parachute, scuba regulator or other life preserving instrument), don't skimp on it. If it's a range toy, then have fun and use whatever you like.

 

Not sure if you'd get more results had you posted this in the Optics Section, but for future reference, there's a link to it in my signature.

 

 

I hope this helped. Again, welcome to the forum.

 

 

 

Corbin

 

 

*EDIT* The pics that Jim just posted are pretty much identical to how I have my 223 Saiga set up right now.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Corbin

[BrutalGardener 205]

Here are pics of my setup, with Ultimak and Primary Arms Gen 7 micro-dot. I love it. Will upgrade to the real deal (Aimpoint) eventually.

 

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

You want strong optic made for Kalashnikov, da? This you can buy from Belarus...

 

Edited November 29, 2010 by post-apocalyptic

[ironlionzion90 0]

Here are pics of my setup, with Ultimak and Primary Arms Gen 7 micro-dot. I love it. Will upgrade to the real deal (Aimpoint) eventually.

 

hey would i be able to co-witness the sights if i used the side mount? it seems the easiest to use and I really like the quick detach. What is the difference between the reflex and tube sights? as in why should i use one over the other

thanks

[jimdigriz 580]

hey would i be able to co-witness the sights if i used the side mount? it seems the easiest to use and I really like the quick detach.

 

There are only two co-witnessing options that I'm aware of right now: the Ultimak, and the side mount with 30 mm rings that Kalinka offers. The Ultimak is rock solid; the latter mount has been reviewed poorly. Another co-witnessing mount with 30 mm rings is supposed to come out before Christmas, but it will be expensive (at least at first) and needs a little time to develop a track record. Check this thread for details and pics (especially the latter pages):

http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=133907

He's also planning a co-witnessing side mount specifically for the Aimpoint Micro (that will also work with other similar sights). I've got high hopes for that one.

 

The 2nd generation Texas Dog Leg rail will allow you to co-witness a Micro-style optic, but it also hasn't come out yet.

 

Anyhow, I think you're on the right track in looking for a co-witness option. It really is vastly superior to a high mount that blocks the irons.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Jim Digriz

[BrutalGardener 205]

Here are pics of my setup, with Ultimak and Primary Arms Gen 7 micro-dot. I love it. Will upgrade to the real deal (Aimpoint) eventually.

 

hey would i be able to co-witness the sights if i used the side mount? it seems the easiest to use and I really like the quick detach. What is the difference between the reflex and tube sights? as in why should i use one over the other

thanks

 

IMO, the Ultimak solution is superior for collimator sight mounting on an AK. Any side-mount adds weight to the weapon and increases its side profile, making it less ergonomic and more prone to snagging. Tube-enclosed and open collimator sights work the same: you have a focused beam of light (be it LED or laser) projected forward into infinity and reflected off glass, that's filtered in order to reflect that particular spectrum of light. The enclosed tubular design is more robust and reliable. You don't have to worry about a spec of dirt blocking your light emitter, etc.

Edited November 30, 2010 by SpetsnazGRU

[jimdigriz 580]

IMO, the Ultimak solution is superior for collimator sight mounting on an AK. Any side-mount adds weight to the weapon and increases its side profile, making it less ergonomic and more prone to snagging.

 

The Ultimak is the best _current_ option. I would prefer a Micro-specific side mount, though. Standard side mounts are bulky and weighty, but this Horse guy on the other forum seems to have shown you can make a dedicated side mount that is very reasonable in weight and not poking out everywhere. I'd like to have a removable gas tube and an upper handguard again, eventually. Also, I'd like to keep my expensive optic away from the heat (although it does seem to weather it OK). All that said, the Aimpoint/Ultimak setup is a winning combination, and is what I use on the rifles my wife and I rely on to protect our household.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Jim Digriz

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

...this Horse guy on the other forum seems to have shown you can make a dedicated side mount that is very reasonable in weight and not poking out everywhere. I'd like to have a removable gas tube and an upper handguard again, eventually. Also, I'd like to keep my expensive optic away from the heat...

 

I'll definitely be watching the development of this new co-witnessing side mount. Regardless, I'll be sticking with a side-rail option over the Ultimak gas tube because it's the standard way to attach optics to AKs, I think optics mounted to Ultimaks on rifles that see hard use will be inevitably damaged by the heat, and I also like having an upper handguard.

 

Granted, a lot of side-rail mounted optics are clumsy and sit way too high, (see the pics thread for multiple examples), but most of those are bastardized constructions using cheap aftermarket side mounts and scopes. If you get a side mounted scope made for Kalashnikovs, (i.e. the PK23-01 I use), it's a different story.

 

ymmv.

[ironlionzion90 0]

Welcome to the forum!

 

I've not tried that sight combo personally, as it's a bit too tactical for my taste. When I first got into tactical rifles/assualt rifles/urban defense rifles or whatever you wish to call them, I would often get the latest technical add ons. After some years of various training (and just personal range time), I've returned to the conclusion that many before me have..... that many of the things I added on were not used enough to warrant the added weight and bulk.

 

Having said that, the 5th Gen UTG seems to be a solid setup. One thing to note though: If you're wanting to add an ACE folding mechanism, it would have to be set up to fold to the right, since having it fold to the left positions the mechanism such that it sticks out from the receiver about 1/4" and you can't slide the mount onto the rail.

 

My personal opinion on lights is to mount them closer to the muzzle, since having them back so far casts a large portion of the light onto the weapon itself and creates a large shadow in the light pattern. I prefer a QD mount under the barrel. That lets you remove the light for other uses if you need to without having to wave your weapon around.

 

As for lasers, they're OK for pistols if you like. Maybe on SMGs/AOWs with a single mount sling when doing CQB. However, for the most part, I could be fine without them on almost all occasions. They can give your position away (as can a light), but unlike a light, they do nothing to ID the potential target. If you use one, I'd highly recommend a momentary activation switch and not a latching one.

 

Beyond that, I'm pretty much in agreement with what's already been said. I have an Ultimak with T-1 and love it. Granted, the optic can cost more than the firearm, but as Jim mentioned, cheap optics will fail, eventually. If you're going to use optics on a SHTF weapon (much like a parachute, scuba regulator or other life preserving instrument), don't skimp on it. If it's a range toy, then have fun and use whatever you like.

 

Not sure if you'd get more results had you posted this in the Optics Section, but for future reference, there's a link to it in my signature.

 

 

I hope this helped. Again, welcome to the forum.

 

 

 

Corbin

 

 

*EDIT* The pics that Jim just posted are pretty much identical to how I have my 223 Saiga set up right now.

hey thanks alot. it seems that everyone ultimak setup i have seen is on saiga that has a modified gas block(the traditional ak look). the front end of my rifle is completely stock. would i still be able to fit the ultimak? This will be my first optic so i was just gonna get some cheap to medium price, but from what im hearing that would be a mistake so im gonna look into something of the aimpoint nature.

[jimdigriz 580]

hey thanks alot. it seems that everyone ultimak setup i have seen is on saiga that has a modified gas block(the traditional ak look). the front end of my rifle is completely stock. would i still be able to fit the ultimak? This will be my first optic so i was just gonna get some cheap to medium price, but from what im hearing that would be a mistake so im gonna look into something of the aimpoint nature.

 

You can modify your stock handguard to accommodate the Ultimak. Classy Kalashnikov, a regular poster here, has posted some pics somewhere on the forum of this. Even if you decide you want to revert, it is easy to procure another stock handguard.

 

The Comp C3 is a very affordable Aimpoint option that you might consider. It has 50,000 hours of battery life, either a 2 MOA or 4 MOA dot, and can be had for less than $400. (It is basically a Comp M3 without the night vision and scuba diving capabilities). It will work with the mount I mentioned that uses 30 mm rings.

[TX-Zen 287]

 

IMO, the Ultimak solution is superior for collimator sight mounting on an AK.

 

 

I definately agree with this and have for a long time, the ultimak is the best all around solution for a dot optic on an AK and would be my first choice to grab. Having said that I personally would have zero issues with taking a combloc optic into a SHTF situation, over the last many years I've used them they have proven themselves to be dependable robust optics. I've been quite happy with the variety I have. Basically even though Aimpoints are the best of the best it doesn't mean combloc optics can't get the job done, they can and do but not as light or elegantly as an Aimpoint micro for example. Optics like the PK-A or PSO 4x24 are military issue and combat proven, I'd stack them up against anything in the west except an Aimpoint to be honest.

 

For me the main point about the Aimpoint is the durability combined with the insane battery life, it's pretty damn hard to beat by any standard. With combloc optics you'll need to go old school and carry a few extra batteries but I don't think thats any kind of concern, last time I checked I could fit dozens of type 357 batteris in my pocket. I also agree on the tubular sight being superior to the collimator and thats why I use a PK-A instead of a Kobra these days.

 

 

Lastly I believe the Rakurz is the best non magnified combloc optic you can get, its built like a tank, has an always on reticule with tritium illumination in low light/no light situations and a great FOV. I use one on my S12 and have seriously considered getting another to replace my PK-A on my SGL31.

 

 

 

 

 

Z

Edited November 30, 2010 by TX-Zen

[bigsal 757]

You want strong optic made for Kalashnikov, da? This you can buy from Belarus...

 

 

 

Or, you can buy the newer version which CAN co-witness:

 

 

i.e. the new gold standard of AK Optics...

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Link/s, sal?

[TX-Zen 287]

We'll find out soon enough, mine gets here in about a week

 

 

http://lemt.ns1.activeby.net/page_product_eng.php?id_p=182

 

 

Courtesy of Citadel-SC from arfcom, he did all the research and got EastWave to pick up a few.

 

 

 

 

Z

Edited November 30, 2010 by TX-Zen

[bigsal 757]

Link/s, sal?

 

 

We'll find out soon enough, mine gets here in about a week

 

 

http://lemt.ns1.activeby.net/page_product_eng.php?id_p=182

 

 

Courtesy of Citadel-SC from arfcom, he did all the research and got EastWave to pick up a few.

 

 

 

 

Z

Bingo! I am going to order one as soon as you early users review it. Assuming it is a step up from PK-AS and other units I will buy two. These things came out literally right before I was going to send TWS $$$ for their rear rail. Glad I held out, because this thing looks sweet!

Post:> check out TX-Zens link. Also email eastwave if you wanna get in line to own one. very few are in que right now.

 

TX-ZEN:>were you charged $399 as reported? I am thinking if we get enough people together we can drive the price down....

Edited November 30, 2010 by bigsal

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

Wow, that is a really nice red dot. I think I may have to get back into optics...

[jimdigriz 580]

We'll find out soon enough, mine gets here in about a week

 

 

http://lemt.ns1.activeby.net/page_product_eng.php?id_p=182

 

 

Courtesy of Citadel-SC from arfcom, he did all the research and got EastWave to pick up a few.

 

 

 

 

Z

 

Let us know whether the dust cover can be removed with the optic still mounted.

 

Thanks.

[TX-Zen 287]

were you charged $399 as reported? I am thinking if we get enough people together we can drive the price down....

 

 

I was indeed charged that but I'm not thinking we can drive the price down, they are just now being accepted by the Russian military and Dmitry didn't think he would be able to get his hands on alot. At this point all he was sure about were two, one for Citadel and one extra which I bought a couple days after Citadel. I'd say its only a matter of time before they become more widespread but lately the trend has been for Russian optic prices to go UP not down...partly due to the older stuff being harder to find and partly because demand for the newer stuff seems to be growing (and NPZ seems to be realizing there is a bigger and bigger market in the US)

 

 

 

Also I highly doubt the dust cover will come off, in my experience other scopes and mounts which have a similar clearance to the PK-01VS its not been possible while the scope was mounted. It's always a nice idea but it seems the tradeoff for siderail cowitness on the AK is an optic so low that the dust cover can't come off, but time will tell on this one.

 

 

 

Z

Edited November 30, 2010 by TX-Zen

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Ah, so this is the newest version of the PK-01?

 

Very cool, but I don't know if another ~$399's in the budget right now.. at least not to replace a nearly-new Russian red dot that cost ~1/2 as much and will also co-witness using the right side-rail mount.

 

If I need another Russkie red dot in the future, this new PK-01VS will be at the top of the short list for consideration, if the price comes down in the meantime.

[TX-Zen 287]

According to Dmitry its brand spanking new. There are a few other interesting new scopes coming out of Lemt, check out the link for some of the others.

 

This one is cool...an extra side looking aperture for the red dot, good for shooting around corners. I doubt I'd use it but I really like the ingenuity

 

 

(also note the 20 round 5.45 mag...I am told these are factory converted for units in the field but not actually produced as a native 20 rounder. I'm trying to get my hands on one right now too)

 

 

 

 

 

Z

[jimdigriz 580]

Also I highly doubt the dust cover will come off, in my experience other scopes and mounts which have a similar clearance to the PK-01VS its not been possible while the scope was mounted. It's always a nice idea but it seems the tradeoff for siderail cowitness on the AK is an optic so low that the dust cover can't come off, but time will tell on this one.

 

Hmm...a co-witnessing side mount that doesn't allow the dust cover to be removed is not worth it to me. The Horse mounts will allow this.

 

I find that the dust cover can actually be removed with very little clearance. You just have to press the button and rotate clockwise. I was able to do it with the PK-AS when I had it, although it did leave a minor scratch on the dustcover.

[bigsal 757]

wow, I haven't seen the side view scope before, that is a neat device!

[BrutalGardener 205]

[BrutalGardener 205]

Optics like the PK-A or PSO 4x24 are military issue and combat proven, I'd stack them up against anything in the west except an Aimpoint to be honest.

 

What I find interesting, is that I have never, EVER seen any news footage or pictures of RDS' being used in actual Russian combat operations... not Chechnya and not Georgia... not even when Alpha, GRU, etc are involved. I do follow all that stuff very closely. I have seen plenty of picture of OMON and Spetsnaz playing with and showing off their Kobras and PK-As in their off time, but never during combat operations. Either they are issued in very limited numbers or the Russians simply don't trust them.

[bigsal 757]

 

 

What I find interesting, is that I have never, EVER seen any news footage or pictures of RDS' being used in actual Russian combat operations... not Chechnya and not Georgia... not even when Alpha, GRU, etc are involved.

 

 

Let me do some searching. There have to be some photos over on militaryphotos.net... these were large scale conflicts, there must be at least a few pics of russian soldiers with RDS's.

[jimdigriz 580]

Some pics from one of Horse's beta testers of the 30 mm mount on a WASR and an unconverted Saiga 12 and Saiga 308: