Birdshot

[beefcakeb99 572]

that was not intended to be serious, but you guys are making it seem like the point of SD is to make sure to kill the person simply breaking the domain of your castle....which is not the case...if you continue after he retreats you cannot chase, you are only required to stop the THREAT, and if you shoot at a BG with a shotgun, you really think they are just going to stand there and hope it misses or take one to the dome cuz they think it is or may just be a birdshot?

[mikegraffam 11]

 

Are you guys serious that you really think that birdshot cannot kill? I beg to differ and at the ranges i would have to fire from at home would likely all be in less than a one foot circle...

I do agree that the second shot is only a maybe...but with the considered circumstances birdshot will give at least a chance for follow ups, no one, i repeat no one is going to stand still and wait for the shot to hit them to decide what to do

if the know you are firing, they will take cover...

 

you are all assuming that my location is not a giant choke point

there will not be any flanking here it is a straight shot..

 

Kill? Yeah, point blank to the chest, I suppose it would - instantly. After it spreads to a 1-foot diameter? Very, very doubtful.

 

And whether or not you can be flanked isn't what I'm talking about, nor am I assuming that. If you're in a gunfight, it is better for you to face FEWER enemies. Giving the first guy you shoot at a free pass and just injuring him with birdshot is a risk to your own life. If that is a risk you are comfortable with, go for it.

 

But you at least owe it to yourself to test your birdshot theory. Get sizable ham, or turkey and thaw it. "Armor" it with an old T-shirt and a leather jacket from a Good Will. Make sure you zip up the jacket and that any pockets are facing you - be realistic.

 

Measure the distance of the longest straight shot inside your home. In mine its 20yds.. from the hallway right outside my bedroom, down the hall, through the living room, to the furthest wall.

 

Now shoot the turkey/ham and see what happens. You need about 12 inches of penetration to insure that you can reach vital organs from any angle. For example, its about 12 inches through the shoulder from the side, through a lung, to the heart.

 

Birdshot does not do enough damage. It just doesn't. An attacker WILL be able to react - pain and birdshot "not tickling" and all that are fine. Until you have an attacker who is on PCP, or even just drunk. There is police video of a drunk man needing to be shot 8 times with a .40 handgun to the torso before he went down, and in the meantime the guy was firing in all directions. Luckily he was drunk and wasn't particularly aiming so no LEOs were harmed.. but even still.. a stray bullet can still kill ya.

 

I just don't understand why the hell you would be concerned about messing up the interior of your home over taking a bullet yourself. The neighbors are something else.. if you're in an apartment building with thin walls, you should be using a pistol with frangible ammo.. not any kind of shotgun.

Edited December 4, 2010 by Michael Graffam

[beefcakeb99 572]

It is not thin walls i am the most worried about. You guys are trying to make it out like every SD scenario has to end in a death. A LOT of them actually run away with a gunshot in them...try and debunk that. I do not feel the same as you guys that having a 12 ga pointing and being fired at you is a welcoming sight, and by the time you would recognize it wasnt life threatening i would have a buckshot ready to go...like i said i do have a pistol nearby also....

[Paulyski 2,227]

Hey, don't get me wrong...

 

I really would like to avoid being shot by a BB gun, let alone bird-shot.

 

But I feel it's foolish to assume the guy one may go up against won't shoot back after getting peppered with bird-shot.

 

When you get shot through the heart with a bullet, you have 8 seconds before you can no longer stand & fight.

The knockdown power of a more powerful round will keep the assailant busy for that period.

[beefcakeb99 572]

True, and i do see the value of a buckshot, but i still feel i could rack the pump fast enough after the BG was shot at by a 12ga....it surely would take him a second to recoup, maybe not, and you guys with superior knowledge could be correct, but my abode would provide me with ample cover...numerous door frames, and walls from my safe spot to the open ended entrance where they would be an easy target, i will not stand in the middle of the hallway for an easy target....

 

ALL in ALL i do suggest buck as a main loadout, but I feel for my situation and location that the first round of bird is my preferred first. If i move, which i was supposed to have been doing I would indeed ditch the bird...but I do see merit in it

[mikegraffam 11]

It is not thin walls i am the most worried about. You guys are trying to make it out like every SD scenario has to end in a death. A LOT of them actually run away with a gunshot in them...try and debunk that. I do not feel the same as you guys that having a 12 ga pointing and being fired at you is a welcoming sight, and by the time you would recognize it wasnt life threatening i would have a buckshot ready to go...like i said i do have a pistol nearby also....

 

I totally agree that in most defence scenarios, even just SHOWING a gun, much less firing any sort of round is going to make the would-be attacker reconsider. For anyone with a shred of rationality, sure - they flee, and they flee quickly.

 

I fully understand that, and I hope that would be the case if I were involved.

 

But then again, if hope meant a damn thing, we wouldn't need to even have this discussion, right? We could just hope no one ever breaks in, and that'd be that.

 

The thing is, statistics don't mean a whole helluva lot in a discussion like this, because it doesn't really matter if 99% of violent attackers flee from a gunfight. What if you're the victim of that other 1%?

 

A few years back, within a 2-hour radius of my home, there were several home invasions. The attackers kicked in the door in broad daylight with guns drawn, victimized the families - did god-knows what, and burnt the houses to ground with the families in it. As far as anyone could tell, nothing of any real value was even stolen. The motive was apparently just violence for the sake of it. Psychopaths, in a word.

 

Those guys don't run.. I reckon they'd happily take some birdshot in the shoulder, just so they could torture you before killing you with your own gun and second round of buckshot. Maybe throw a taunt or two in about how you should have left the birdshot in the closet while they sodomize your wife and behead your dog in front of you.

 

Just do us ALL a favor and just put them down, permanently. If you maim them, they'll just go to someone else's house.

[mikegraffam 11]

Also I have a buzz right now so this may all be out of line so forgive me, but at my place and small town location I can almost guarentee that if there are three guys coming in it will have to be single file, and if their lead gets a shotgun blasted at them i really do not feel like they will continue to enter...i do not live in gang banger land,

 

Hey man, neither do I. The population of my city is about 60,000 or so. Lots of smaller towns all around. Its the smaller towns that got hit by those home invasions I mentioned in my previous post.

 

Roaming psychos love small towns, it would seem.

 

I totally agree that if you are a victim of the MOST LIKELY type of home intruder (thieves) birdshot will work fine. But really, you wouldn't even need to fire it - so it may as well be buck. Just cock the gun, announce you're home and armed, and calling the cops - and they will tear on out as fast as they can.

 

But HD scenarios aren't LIKELY to begin with.. so why bank on your UNLIKELY scenario being the MOST LIKELY variety? On the contrary, being prepared for the LEAST likely variety prepares you well for all the others too.

[mikegraffam 11]

that was not intended to be serious, but you guys are making it seem like the point of SD is to make sure to kill the person simply breaking the domain of your castle....which is not the case...if you continue after he retreats you cannot chase, you are only required to stop the THREAT, and if you shoot at a BG with a shotgun, you really think they are just going to stand there and hope it misses or take one to the dome cuz they think it is or may just be a birdshot?

 

Shooting a person with birdshot will likely not stop the threat. It will more than likely escalate it.

 

Lets say 1 attacker busts into your home with a 7.62x39. You hit him with birdshot, and it doesn't result in an instant kill. The pain knocks him on his ass, of course, maybe makes it impossible for him to flee. Now, in a rage and with fear, he opens up with that x39. You, are down the hall, taking cover to avoid getting shot. There are now 7.62's flying all around, and for what?

 

As far as I'm concerned - YOU are responsible if one of those 7.62's goes into your neighbor's house, which is oh-so-close.

 

There was an armed attacker in your home.

You felt the need to fire a gun at him.

You failed to neutralize him, and didn't even select a round particularly suited to doing so.

 

Legally you probably wouldn't be in any trouble, but morally .. I'd say you owe it to yourself, and your neighbors to stop the GUNFIGHT as quickly as possible. ONE round. Make sure it is yours, and make sure it is buckshot. Call the cops, and go back to bed.

Edited December 4, 2010 by Michael Graffam

[beefcakeb99 572]

that is sound logic, but if I were using a pistol, seems the same thing could happen...but i am coming around....Sorry guys forgive my buzz

[mikegraffam 11]

that is sound logic, but if I were using a pistol, seems the same thing could happen...but i am coming around....Sorry guys forgive my buzz

 

Absolutely. But with a pistol you double-tap, and maybe use some more follow-ups as needed.. the point is, you don't hit him with one shot, or just birdshot, and see what happens next. Thats no good for anyone.

[mikegraffam 11]

that is sound logic, but if I were using a pistol, seems the same thing could happen...but i am coming around....Sorry guys forgive my buzz

Absolutely. With a pistol you need to double-tap, and maybe use some more follow-ups if needed. That is why a shotgun w/ buck is preferred. Allows for a more reliable one-shot stop. The point is, you don't hit with just birdshot, and see what happens next. Thats no good for anyone.

 

No worries about the buzz.. wish I was drinking right now

Edited December 4, 2010 by Michael Graffam

[Parson Julabee Jones 32]

"Roaming psychos love small towns, it would seem."

 

They love the country climate as well. Yesterday, just 20 miles south of here, a home invader crashed into a home, shot two (one dead at last word), and attempted to kidnap a third, who escaped. The miscreant then stole the family pickup, and headed in our direction. Last we heard, he had not been apprehended.

 

This debate has gone on for hundreds of years (home defense that is), and the only thing certain is uncertainty, Murphy's Law, and Chaos Theory. That is, when your own time comes to face the bad guy in your house (and given the 300,000,000 population of this country juxtaposed against the numbers of these kinds of encounters, it is extremely unlikely such a thing will ever occur to you, or to me....you have about as much chance of winning the Powerball lottery, thank the Good Lord), you can rest assured it most likely will NOT happen in any of the ways you've considered, thought about, or planned for.

 

So given that, why not plan for the worst possible? And be prepared therein? I have a good sensitive alarm system, with a siren that can be heard about a half mile. Beside my bed are two 9mm autos, and at least one shotgun (oftentimes two, as I like being close to guns) holding a minimum of 8 shells, loaded with 3 inch buck. If an intruder manages to break in, and chooses to remain, all the while knowing the police will arrive shortly, my wife and I will be in our bedroom, her with a pistol, me with a shotgun. We will yell to identify ourselves to the intruder/intruders, and will shoot anything that opens the door.

 

If the break-in occurs while we're watching television, eating or whatever, same thing. There are always at least two guns with easy reach. I wear a gun when I mow the yard (lawn to city slickers and yankees), when I work in my shop, when I traverse the yard to get to my shop. I keep a gun with me whenever in public as well.

 

My only exception to this is with my job. I work for the government, and to be caught with a weapon of any kind on my job is an immediate no recourse, no appeal firing. And I do have to work in order to buy all those guns.

 

PJJ

[Parson Julabee Jones 32]

"Roaming psychos love small towns, it would seem."

 

They love the country climate as well. Yesterday, just 20 miles south of here, a home invader crashed into a home, shot two (one dead at last word), and attempted to kidnap a third, who escaped. The miscreant then stole the family pickup, and headed in our direction. Last we heard, he had not been apprehended.

 

This debate has gone on for hundreds of years (home defense that is), and the only thing certain is uncertainty, Murphy's Law, and Chaos Theory. That is, when your own time comes to face the bad guy in your house (and given the 300,000,000 population of this country juxtaposed against the numbers of these kinds of encounters, it is extremely unlikely such a thing will ever occur to you, or to me....you have about as much chance of winning the Powerball lottery, thank the Good Lord), you can rest assured it most likely will NOT happen in any of the ways you've considered, thought about, or planned for.

 

So given that, why not plan for the worst possible? And be prepared therein? I have a good sensitive alarm system, with a siren that can be heard about a half mile. Beside my bed are two 9mm autos, and at least one shotgun (oftentimes two, as I like being close to guns) holding a minimum of 8 shells, loaded with 3 inch buck. If an intruder manages to break in, and chooses to remain, all the while knowing the police will arrive shortly, my wife and I will be in our bedroom, her with a pistol, me with a shotgun. We will yell to identify ourselves to the intruder/intruders, and will shoot anything that opens the door.

 

If the break-in occurs while we're watching television, eating or whatever, same thing. There are always at least two guns within easy reach. I wear a gun when I mow the yard (lawn to city slickers and yankees), when I work in my shop, when I traverse the yard to get to my shop. I keep a gun with me whenever in public as well.

 

My only exception to this is with my job. I work for the government, and to be caught with a weapon of any kind on my job is an immediate no recourse, no appeal firing. And I do have to work in order to buy all those guns. I'm not paranoid, but I am prepared.

 

PJJ

[Mayor Al 41]

Well, following all the comments here, and in a few other threads, I have ended all thoughts of buying 'Flash/Bang' and Rubber Rounds as HD ammo! As I said in my Page 1 post here, my Modular Home has fairly light construction materials, but I have well over 100 yards any direction from the outside of the buldings to any possible neighbor building. So I pull the mag with the #4 Turkey load and replace with Buckshot. I also promise myself to be VERY Positive about Identifying the target prior to opening fire. No "Shoot in the Dark" to try to scare away a noisy, but invisible, BG.

BTW I consider disabling the BG vehicle part of the total process in these scenerios. Slugs do stop engines !!

 

Over the past three years or so, the number of B&E burglaries has increased in this semi-rural area. We have had one burglary (neighbors) that turned into a Home Invasion when neighbor came home during the burglary. One BG ran off into the woods, while the other held the neighbor at gunpoint while he loaded a TV into his van. The runaway crook appeared at another neighbors home (who had been listening to the calls by the police and radio-reponses on his scanner). The walking crook asked for a ride to town to get help for his disabled car...the old guy then held the walking crook at shotgun point while he called the cops. Dumb-walker was arrested and identified the gun-toting other guy who was picked up within an hour.

 

This happened within sight of my home...and gave me the ideas for developing a response plan of my own. I am glad I don't have kids in the house. That makes keeping a loaded weapon a bit easier on the peace-of-mind.

 

Thanks to all for your contributions on this thread. I may not agree with some of the thinking, but I have considered all before settling on that which I feel is right for me.

[Prometheus 7]

[Parson Julabee Jones 32]

Update on the local home invasion/murder that occurred near me yesterday....Two are dead (80 yr old man, 76 yr old wife). The bad guy stole only their car. And hasn't been apprehended yet.

 

It began with a knock at the door of a middle aged lady. At answering the door, the BG said, "Could I get a ride? My car is messed up?". Being country, and friendly as most people in this area are, she agreed. Upon getting into the car, the fellow pulled a gun and said, "Drive...where I tell you". While driving as he had said, the lady talked him into actually getting out of the car, and letting her go, just south of the Kentucky/Tennessee border. She pulled away, he walked across the road to this older couple's home, and it got very bad, very quickly from there.

 

I don't answer the door without a gun in hand, even if I know the visitor.

And yesterday's tragedy is an example of why....

 

PJJ

[psl sniper 963]

actually did some tests with an elk side (rib cage with muscle tissue still attached) unfortunately i did not get pics, as i just stumbled across them. (there where 3 of them) somone left them for the scavengers. anyway i had my s12 with me and various handloads. plus some factory birdshot. all shots where fired from 10'. i started with buck first. fired 5 rnds into one elk side. at that range they blew nice holes through both sides of the rib cage. okay lets try birdhot. loaded up the md 20 with over the counter wally world federal 1290fps birdshot

with #6 shot. first round, spread the muscle tissue out in a 6 inch pattern and left a shallow, quarter inch cavity. 0 penetration. had to fire 2 more rounds to break through the bone. did not go through the other side. remember there are no organs inside, just an empty rib cage. went ahead and dumped th rest of the drum, into the last one (17 rounds). birdshot makes a nice meat tenderizer! .

 

so one round of birdshot will make a shallow wound in tissue. but wont go trough the bone. it took 3 rounds to pentrate the rib cage. granted elk bones are probably stronger than human bones, but the tissue damage would be similar, also there was no skin on the rib cage, and it did not have the benifit of clothing. so i gave the birdshot the best chances possible. pics would have been nice. if theres anything left ill go take some photos. (provided the coyotes havent dragged it off)

Edited December 5, 2010 by psl sniper

[banshee 69]

I do have a HCP(tn name) where it is criminal to possess a handgun without a license(bs IMO),

 

 

 

I don't use my Saiga for HD, but I do use a 870 Remington and it only loaded with OO Buckshot.

 

I also live in TN. I am just a few miles from you in Blountville, and it is NOT criminal to possess a handgun without a license. Hell, TN doesn't even have a handgun license. We do have a Handgun carry permit, but no license is need to own a handgun.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Banshee

[beefcakeb99 572]

I do have a HCP(tn name) where it is criminal to possess a handgun without a license(bs IMO),

 

 

 

I don't use my Saiga for HD, but I do use a 870 Remington and it only loaded with OO Buckshot.

 

I also live in TN. I am just a few miles from you in Blountville, and it is NOT criminal to possess a handgun without a license. Hell, TN doesn't even have a handgun license. We do have a Handgun carry permit, but no license is need to own a handgun.

Sorry i misrepresented what i was trying to say. Notice I said possess and didn't say own..

 

I know the law, and in TN it is a criminal act to possess a handgun, I did not mean there is a license to buy, but outside your home, if you have a loaded handgun anywhere except at a range you must have a permit. which thus criminalizes it....you can even be charged even if you have your hcp on you...it is only an affirmative defense... I will return with the code if needed

 

 

ETA yea in that post i definitely meant in or about public, sorry and license permit semantics. I have one(HCP) and it is much more red tape "with a view to prevent crime"...then i would like to admit...

Be careful what you suggest, because unless you are at home or a range in TN it IS illegal to possess a firearm in TN without being permitted/licensed...where does the 'permit' come from? The DoS if I am not mistaken(not trying to be jerk, too lazy to look it up) and was applied for at the DMV? don't let it fool you it smells like licensing to me...hell i had to go through way more then to drive a car and could kill more people at once easily with anything under 26,000 lbs.

which is why i made the comment about it being bs...let's be honest how can a state permit a right?

Edited December 5, 2010 by beefcakeb0