crappie josh 0 Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 is there any benifit to over sizing the gas port holes does it help with FTE's or does it help in any way shape or form ? and if so is there any good videos on how to and what not to do Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1liter 20 Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 You never want to oversize your ports! If you gun is severely under gassed, you may want to open up your ports. If you are getting lots of fte's, try some of the other fixes first. If you search around there are plenty. Anything from polishing the bolt and FCG to light springs to a variable gas plug. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fumes 84 Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Yep theres tons of information on getting these things to run great, start reading. I started with the small stuff and got mine to about 98% before I opened up the ports but not until I read this site from top to bottom. All the info is here. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Redemption 5 Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Drill baby drill! 3 ports at .0960 will give you plenty of gas. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Not really, just increases the amount of fouling in the gas block... I have to clean my ports about every 300 to 400 rounds, and sometimes, after shooting a few hundred rounds at once, when I change the setting on the plug to fire different ammo, it packs all of the fouling down into the ports making my gun a single-shot that can break your shoulder. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Redemption 5 Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Why wouldn't you clean every 400 rounds anyway? Setting two is where I keep my gun with all loads. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Why wouldn't you clean every 400 rounds anyway? Setting two is where I keep my gun with all loads. Because it's Russian and can go five times that long normally???? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Redemption 5 Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Why wouldn't you clean every 400 rounds anyway? Setting two is where I keep my gun with all loads. Because it's Russian and can go five times that long normally???? Oh..............16 boxes of shells is a lot..............must be a Russian thing, but I clean my guns when I get done. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scalilou 2 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Wise man once say, "Man who drills, shoots anything" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scalilou 2 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 ...and he was right....with a correctly profiled hammer and bolt that is Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 3 ports at .0960 will give you plenty of gas. Setting two is where I keep my gun with all loads. Bad combo if you shoot powerful rounds much. Just a suggestion. Do as you will. Just a random voice from the internet world that doesn't know anything about these guns here. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crappie josh 0 Posted March 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 i enjoy shooting the light loads from walmart, matter of fact i had never even shot a mag load or slug before i bought my saiga 12 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 i enjoy shooting the light loads from walmart, matter of fact i had never even shot a mag load or slug before i bought my saiga 12 What do you mean by over sizing? What the gentlman above says he has at 3 @ .096 isn't really overgassed. It's actually less gassed than a gun with 4 ports at .075 if you do the math & calculate total port area. Personally I do like to "play" with guns (meaning drum dumps, shooting at the range for fun & whatnot) but Personally I see much value in having a properly gassed gun that will run the vast majority of ammos & not fail on you or whoever ends up with it in the future if they actually use it to defend their, or other's lives. Now I've seen people overgass the shit out of guns that are just low brass toys for all intents & purpposes & likely won't last too long if they have to use real ammo for a while to put food on the table. These guys make excuses to themselves to justify their sloth & not fix it right by doing everything else first then gradually increasing port sizes, but in all reality, they're lazy fools & completely unethical schisters if they try to sell their range toys to anybody as reliable firearms that you can bet your life on. Personally I like to do everything right. The guns can be made to run reliably & correctly. It takes time & studying, or having it done. Both ways work. However I detest jerry-rigged toys that are passed off as reliable firearms because they may eventually cost someone their life. I see too many hack jobs because people were too lazy or ignorant to do it right & stuck in a false sense of security thinking nothing is ever going to happen. half-ass jerry rigged guns are dangerous because they never have "HALF-ASS-JERRY-RIGGED-GUN" stamped on the side of them & eventually may be sold to someone who may to try to protect their family with them. If you have your mind made up to drill the shit out of your ports, go for it. But if you post seeking validation for making what should be a reliable combat shotgun into nothing more than a fragile range toy, you will be hard pressed to receive it from anybody who actually knows what they're talking about here or has ever had to go to the gun in "real life". Rant over. Sorry, I just can't stand when people jerry rig crap when it's not very difficult to do it correctly in the first place. Now back to work & doing it RIGHT the first time. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Redemption 5 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 3 ports at .0960 will give you plenty of gas. Setting two is where I keep my gun with all loads. Bad combo if you shoot powerful rounds much. Just a suggestion. Do as you will. Just a random voice from the internet world that doesn't know anything about these guns here. Oh yah?..................God speaks? No offense/ disrespect, this may be a new horse....but.....I've been into rodeo's for a long time. These are AK's chambered in 12 gauge and pretty sloppy/junky ones at that. That's why they need so much work. I built AK's before it was cool to do so, when you could get Bulgarian milled receivers for $89 and Polish parts that never looked to have been issued for $125. If you bought a dozen receivers, you got a discount. I know the platform inside and out. I'm no armorer but I've been around them. The guns I built run like glass. If I decide to dump a few dozen drums of slugs or OO I may play with the angle of the plug, but I'm not too worried about self destruction. I run a light buffer I made from .250 material but that is a whole different thread. I've seen only normal wear on the trunnion...comparable to other AK's I have known. When I started with this contraption, I think i used a pic you had up to get an idea of hammer profiling. It was obvious after installation that Tapco left more material than necessary . i enjoy shooting the light loads from walmart, matter of fact i had never even shot a mag load or slug before i bought my saiga 12 What do you mean by over sizing? What the gentlman above says he has at 3 @ .096 isn't really overgassed. It's actually less gassed than a gun with 4 ports at .075 if you do the math & calculate total port area. Personally I do like to "play" with guns (meaning drum dumps, shooting at the range for fun & whatnot) but Personally I see much value in having a properly gassed gun that will run the vast majority of ammos & not fail on you or whoever ends up with it in the future if they actually use it to defend their, or other's lives. Now I've seen people overgass the shit out of guns that are just low brass toys for all intents & purpposes & likely won't last too long if they have to use real ammo for a while to put food on the table. These guys make excuses to themselves to justify their sloth & not fix it right by doing everything else first then gradually increasing port sizes, but in all reality, they're lazy fools & completely unethical schisters if they try to sell their range toys to anybody as reliable firearms that you can bet your life on. Personally I like to do everything right. The guns can be made to run reliably & correctly. It takes time & studying, or having it done. Both ways work. However I detest jerry-rigged toys that are passed off as reliable firearms because they may eventually cost someone their life. I see too many hack jobs because people were too lazy or ignorant to do it right & stuck in a false sense of security thinking nothing is ever going to happen. half-ass jerry rigged guns are dangerous because they never have "HALF-ASS-JERRY-RIGGED-GUN" stamped on the side of them & eventually may be sold to someone who may to try to protect their family with them. If you have your mind made up to drill the shit out of your ports, go for it. But if you post seeking validation for making what should be a reliable combat shotgun into nothing more than a fragile range toy, you will be hard pressed to receive it from anybody who actually knows what they're talking about here or has ever had to go to the gun in "real life". Rant over. Sorry, I just can't stand when people jerry rig crap when it's not very difficult to do it correctly in the first place. Now back to work & doing it RIGHT the first time. I can agree with this....... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Redemption 5 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 I did the math on port area. A three port gun at .096 is ~18.5% more gas than a 4 port gun with .075 ports. 3 ports at .096 = .0217 in^2 area 4 ports at .075 = .0176 in^2 area ~ 18.5 % Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csmw 98 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 My gun is set-up to run birdshot and has the gas regulator wide open. I only run birdshot, but let my friends hammer the shit out of it w/ hot loads all the time and never adjust the regulator. These guns are tough. I will say though, one I will never sell it. And two, to me it's just a gun (prolly my favorite though), If it did self-destruct I am sure I could easily repair it. If I couldn't I'd just trash it and get another. fwiw. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 My gun is set-up to run birdshot and has the gas regulator wide open. I only run birdshot, but let my friends hammer the shit out of it w/ hot loads all the time and never adjust the regulator. These guns are tough. I will say though, one I will never sell it. And two, to me it's just a gun (prolly my favorite though), If it did self-destruct I am sure I could easily repair it. If I couldn't I'd just trash it and get another. fwiw. Yeah, they sound like some great "friends"... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csmw 98 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 (edited) Yeah, they sound like some great "friends"... LOL! It ain't on them, if I cared, I could easily adj the regulator. It's a thousand dollar gun that can easily be repaired/replaced, so I really don't care that much about it. I am torture-testing it, LOL! I'll tell you though, it has sure taken a beating and keeps on chugging! I've had fun and gotten my money out of it. Edited March 25, 2011 by Class-2 Matt Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crappie josh 0 Posted March 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 I wasn't really sure about the original size of the gas ports and that why I was asking before I tried to fix my FTE problem (as I'm new to the whole saiga 12 relm like a lot of people that have just recently jumped on the wagon ) but one of the guys I know said his buddy took his gas ports out to .1250 and I was like holy cow I think that's way too much but before I make mine .0938 Im trying to explore my options before I do anything cause my S12 is having FTE's everytime I shoot 2.75 fed value pack anyone have any suggestions for me I was thinking about polishing my bolt and stuff before I touch my gas ports Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jcmacconnell 25 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 3 ports at 3/32 with polished internals = walmart bulk destruction. I am prob a bit overgassed with my TAC47 plug but o well I am running at 100% with Federal Bulk. These things are tanks anyways Don't sweat it Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Over gassing your Saiga12 is like over boosting a turbo on a car. It works great! For a little while anyway... before it dies. A gas operated semi-automatic is supposed to be a balanced system. The larger the ports the more crud that gets into the system. There is a reason that every single professional builder on this board takes a lot time polishing and fitting the action to run with the port size as close to the factory as possible. This is the same policy advocated by the serious members here. You will not find one of them that recommending "over gassing" the gun, by choice. What you will find is the occasional guy that pops in and advances this idea for one reason, it is easy and that is the only way they could get their gun to run. They apparently had neither the time, inclination or skill to do it right. Also keep in mind that some folks for some perverse reason think that it is great fun to talk a stranger into doing something stupid on the Internet... I am with Pauly here, do what you want, but over gassing the gun is, too much gas, and will wear it out faster. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MrOneEyedBoh 14 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Whats an ideal gas port size? Mine measured in at .08 and I have 3 ports. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crappie josh 0 Posted March 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 I don't want to do anything that will result in faster then normal wear and tear on my s12. I want to do it all the right way I've spent too much money on it so far (got about $1600.00 wrapped up in it so far and by far the nicest play toy I have at the moment) to tear it up due to lack of attention to detail so for me I think I'm going to hold off and not over size the gas ports Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csmw 98 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 (edited) What you will find is the occasional guy that pops in and advances this idea for one reason, it is easy and that is the only way they could get their gun to run. They apparently had neither the time, inclination or skill to do it right. Also keep in mind that some folks for some perverse reason think that it is great fun to talk a stranger into doing something stupid on the Internet... Just curious, was your post directed at me. I got the impression it was. Edited March 25, 2011 by Class-2 Matt Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Redemption 5 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 I was thinking about this thread while at work today. I hope I didn't come off as sounding too arrogant or condescending towards the Paulmeister, that was not my intention. I would like to make an observation however, and it is in no way directed at anyone in particular, though I have seen examples of it in this thread as well as board-wide. I hear time and again about over gassing and port drilling equaling assured destruction for the gun and eternal damnation for its owner. The reasoning is often explained that the gun was designed with ports of a certain size and that is the last thing to be changed if ever............However, it seems that it is given gospel that the bolt, bolt carrier and trigger are ancillary parts to be sculpted to the thinnest possible surface mating areas/profiles which will still allow functioning and retain part integrity. It just seems a little hypocritical to me. If the Russians fucked up everything else internal, it goes without saying that they could have fucked up the gas ports as well. Hell, they can't even seem to have a solid decision on how many to put in the gun to begin with, and they then cover or partially cover them after the fact. Saying it only applies to shitty shells from Walmart isn't acceptable because I have read multiple posts from multitudes of guys that can't get these guns to run on deer slugs and OO for which they were designed. Reading how the gas system in these heaps of shit are delicate, balanced systems while the internal mechanisms are simply items to be milled and ground at will, flies in the face of logic. I won't pretend to be an expert and offer a definitive solution that can encompass every individual weapon. I won't regurgitate something I know to not be the case either. I know what I have done to my gun and it was a little of both internals and gas port modification. It runs well. Sorry, /rant Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csmw 98 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 (edited) Sorry, /rant Redemption, you raise some valid points, imho. I personally am not a self-proclaimed or indeed a 'true' expert on here, but from my experience working on them, I will say that I would indeed smooth out the internals before you mess with the gas sytem. I would do the gas system last. I only build these guns for my friends and co-workers, I don't work on Saigas for profit, but whenever I am building one I rip it all down and smooth out the parts and check the specs on the gas system and modify (I know what specs work for me) everything at the same time so I only have to mess with them the one time, instead of trial and erroring them... Hope this helps a little, I am sure others will post w/ better advice. Edited March 25, 2011 by Class-2 Matt Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 (edited) What you will find is the occasional guy that pops in and advances this idea for one reason, it is easy and that is the only way they could get their gun to run. They apparently had neither the time, inclination or skill to do it right. Also keep in mind that some folks for some perverse reason think that it is great fun to talk a stranger into doing something stupid on the Internet... Just curious, was your post directed at me. I got the impression it was. Who are you again? Oh, I checked, you changed your name, I honestly did'nt know! The C&S guy! Yeah, long time no chat! But sure, if the shoe fits... It does not seem to from your post above. But anyone that says that the first place to correct a misfireing Saiga is to "over gas it" has no business advising others. If that is not you, what is the problem? Edited March 26, 2011 by Azrial Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Redemption 5 Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 Has anyone actually done any work with this equation or is all of the gas bla, blah, blah just speculation? I borrowed this text from another site- http://engineering.wikia.com/wiki/Orifice_equation so it can be deleted if the owners are afraid of copyright shit and such. Gas can be substituted for liquid since they share the same properties in a gas flow example. there is actually a calculator here Orifice if anyone is interested. I may play with it later but I'm going shooting right now. The orifice equation describes the rate of flow of liquid through an orifice. The equation can be represented as: where Q = flow (cubic metres per second) C(d) = coefficient of discharge A = area of orifice (square metres) g = acceleration from gravity (9.81 m/s/s) h = head acting on the centreline (m) For a circular orifice, the equation becomes: Typical values for the coefficient of discharge are: Sharp orifice: 0.62 Tube: 0.80 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 Whats an ideal gas port size? Mine measured in at .08 and I have 3 ports. I believe it's 3/32... Mine is at 7/64, and that's a bit big. Easy to shoot from the hip though... Oh, and you can enlarge your ports to pretty much whatever you want as long as you have an adjustable plug but you will have to deal with more carbon and plastic fouling. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csmw 98 Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 Who are you again? If you have one of the multi-postion gas regulators on your gun, I am the guy you shold be thanking, that's who. But sure, if the shoe fits... Since no where in my post (or any other post I've made) that I advise over-gasing a gun, then no, the shoe is the wrong size. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.