AegisDei 2 Posted July 8, 2005 Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 What up all? I'm getting even nearer to completion of my new AR. It's not going to be the fanciest gun in the world, but I'm still excited: it's a new toy for me, and one that I bult myself. And just so everyone knows, I realize that guns aren't toys, but you get my drift. It's something to play responsibly with, and it will mean that I'll be at even more competitions around SC, NC, VA, TN, etc. What I've got going on is a flat-top DPMS 5.56 chambered, 1:7" twist, 14.5" barreled complete upper, mounted to a RRA complete lower with a 6-position telescoping stock. So what I need now is a good optic to mount on it. I've seen the EOTechs and heard they're good, but I wanted to see what others might suggest to try. Also, should the optic be mounted towards the front of the lower or the rear of the lower, ie right by the handguard or by the stock? Please give any opinions or reviews you can offer! Thanks!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted July 8, 2005 Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 I have a BARSKA 6-24 x 40 w/ mildot reticle... PERFECT scope for that rifle... 60 bucks at gander mountain... EXCELLENT scope, SUPER BRIGHT AND CLEAR optics!!! Retains zero VERY WELL... I like it!! http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=6127 There it is.... THATS the scope... very nice!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AegisDei 2 Posted July 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 Thanks Indy. Does that scope give you a good enough field of vision and fast target aquisition? You said it was bright, but is it usable in low-light situations (near no-light)? I namely want this for 3-gun competition, and I don't see myself ever going over 100 yards with it, max, and usually it'll be 0-50 yards. Let me know if you get the chance, thanks for the help. And other people, feel free to give input too! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Onepoint 0 Posted July 9, 2005 Report Share Posted July 9, 2005 Looking for red dot type or telescopic? Eotech and Aimpoint are the current rage (and issue to military and police) Unless yopu are going to do some real combat stuff with it, a good alternative to the Aimpoint is the Hakko Tac point for around a hundred bucks. There are the Trigcon ACOG, they are pretty steep, but probably the best for short to medium range low light shooting, again military issue stuff. A compromise between the Red dot and scope is the Leupold Mark 4 CQ/T, basically a variable 1-3 power red dot. It will be more that the cost of your rifle if you built it though. While I would love to have a ACOG or the CQ/T, I have a Hakko and it works just fine. Another option that some like is the Leapers 6x T168. Intensified reticle for low light, a lot of AR shooters like them, but dont know how good for 3 gun they would be. But they are reasonable at 40 bucks. http://www.clearviewinvest.com/detail.asp?..._id=004-SCO1680 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted July 9, 2005 Report Share Posted July 9, 2005 Well, for that, I would also jump on the red dot bandwagon.... You will want a LARGE DIAMETER red dot... at least a 40MM tube... for a .223 you can probably go with just about ANY decent grade of red dot... I dont mean the 29 dollar cheapies... but I would say a $50.00 plus one should work for you... I had a 42MM red dot on my 12 gauge 835 for years, and it never had a problem... I only recently switched it out cause it wasnt my scope... it was my buddies, and I wanted a SCOPE scope on my shotgun for deer season instead... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Onepoint 0 Posted July 9, 2005 Report Share Posted July 9, 2005 Ok Indy, I will disagree some. The advantage to a red dot is both eyes open shooting, the big fat red dots get in the way Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted July 9, 2005 Report Share Posted July 9, 2005 Well... to each his own... if a smaller tube is what you prefer, there are tons of those too... I know you can get very nice ones for about 60-70 bucks most places... and I am sure one of those would do the trick! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
k_dawg 0 Posted July 10, 2005 Report Share Posted July 10, 2005 i have been very pleased with my Hakko Tacpoint. It is nearly indistinquishably different from my Aimpoint. Only the cheesy-feeling flip covers are different. It ran me $80.. and I wish I didn't spend the $$$$ on the Aimpoint! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AegisDei 2 Posted July 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2005 Ok, so I'm going to admit my ignorance and just ask for help. I don't quite understand what MOA is. I think it's the size of the red-dot, but why is bigger, better? To save some money (I gotta save up for a .50BMG now), I'd rather save $200 bucks and get a good optic, instead of a GREAT optic, so the EOTech and Aimpoint are no longer in the running. Also, what's the advantages of a bed-panoramic optic vs. a tube design? Below are examples of bed vs. tube, since I don't know the right name for either. Bed-panoramic: ATN Digital Ultra Sight Hakko Bed-35 Hakko Bed-24 Tube: Tac-Point Cantilever Hakko Tac-point In general, if you mount directly to the flat-top, is it necessary to raise up the sight some? As with the Hakko Bed designs or the Hakko Tac-point? Or in general is it at the right height? Thanks for any more help that people can offer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
k_dawg 0 Posted July 10, 2005 Report Share Posted July 10, 2005 MOA=minutes of angle 1 MOA = 1" dameter at 100yards. So, a 4MOA = 4" diameter at 100yards. There is not any "right" size, as there are pro's and con's. As a general rule, a larger dot is easier to see and faster to get on target.. but a smaller dot is more precise, but slower. ### As far as height, it depends alot on your own body. I like my reddots mounted ~1" higher and farther forward than where I have my scopes. Getting back on target fast is better for me. I use a 5" long riser rail extension from Yankee Hill . This mounts the backend of the Aimpoint right at the front-edge of the upper reciever. This is between the "normal" and "bush rifle" location. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Onepoint 0 Posted July 10, 2005 Report Share Posted July 10, 2005 A couple things. I have the ATN Ultra sight, it will not co witness with any iron sights, its too tall, the same probably goes for the Hakko panoramic sights. Which is a bummer, because I really like having the different reticles. Height is personal taste, but can be limited if you want to cowitness. Most of the tube style red dots can be made to cowitness the irons with the right rings or mount. I like mine forward of where the scope sits, I have mine on the railed free float handguard in fact. Cowitness is the ability to use the iron sights through the red dot sight. Some like them set so the dot is right inline with the iron sights. Some prefer to have the red dot above the line of sight and have the iron sights in the botom 1/3 of the red dot picture. There are a lot of advantages to cowitnessing, the obvious is you don't have to remove the red dot if its not working. Another decent alternative is the Bushnell Holosites. They run about $250, not quite Eotech, but pretty good for a non combat type user. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
h8mtv 0 Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 I really like the Eotechs, I have a 552 rev F and a Holosight, each on M4's. As for magnified optics I don't think there is a much better deal than the Burris Fullfield II. Natchez sells this scope in a package with a spotting scope for $200. Very nice combo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wakal 10 Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 (edited) Most folks around here seem to like as little "wall" on the dot as possible, to avoid obscuring the targets. The old Tasco PDP4, for example, was rather thin for its size. The PDP3 and PDP5 had much thicker side walls, and as others mentioned, that gets in the way. I'm fond of OKO and C-More red-dot sights, myself, although my wife likes her PDP4. EOTech has the "thick side wall" problem, and I've broken the mounting bolts off on the EOTech mounted on my competition shotgun (twice). But I shoot a lot more than most folks, so actual milage may vary. If I was setting up an A3 for entertainment, I think I'd get one of the C-More that has the built-in A2 sights on a full flattop mount. Neat stuff. My gear looks like this: http://www.dreadnaught-industries.com/imag..._rifle_AR15.jpg , by the way. 16" dual-optic rifles with decent comps and light bolt carriers are the heat For Open competition, it is hard to beat two optics. For Tactical, a 1-4 or 1.5-5 is a pretty good scope size. Red dots are fine out to a hundred yards, and useable out to three or so, but they are not ideal at that sort of distance. Benny Hill of Triangle Shooting Sports (dot-com) pushes the $49.95 (from www.cdnninvestments.com) 1.5-5 20mm Simmons "pro-diamond" (shotgun) scope. Decent glass, cheap...good enough to be in the top five nationally And on MOA...although it isn't really, for our purposes 1 MOA is one inch at 100 yards. My wife's 10moa PDP4's dot covers a ten-inch target at 100 yards. My four-minute OKO covers...four inches at 100 yards. You see the problem at distance...if you are engaging (say) 10" plates at 300 yards (a fairly common 3-gun thing) using even a 4moa dot, your dot is 12" across...which makes aiming at a 10" plate a bit more interesting. A 10moa dot is 30"...that is worse Alex Edited July 13, 2005 by Wakal Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AegisDei 2 Posted July 13, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 Thanks for the info all...I'm getting a better idea now of what I ought be looking at. For now, I just got a flip-up rear sight so that I can go shooting and compete some more before investing in an optic that might not be right for me. However, Wakal...what's needed for dual optics? That looks sweet and is definately something that I want to do. All of your ARs are gorgeous, btw, nice job. Can you please offer some guidance on offsetting the red-dot so a scope can mount up top? I think that's what I saw on yours, though one of them looks like both the holographic sight and and the scope are upstairs. Please let me know, thanks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wakal 10 Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 Depends on how and what kind of optics you want to use. For, say, my 16" rail gun...I have an IOR 1.1-4 CQB scope on a LaRue Tactical QD mount on top of a standard flattop upper. The 4moa OKO red-dot sight is mounted on a long Yankee Hill Machine 45-degree mount, clamped on a LaRue 12" four-rail forend. I'm experimenting with the LaRue on a Open gun...mostly because I was really happy with how that little M4 turned out. This was a "build in an hour" gun, as everything just bolted (and torqued) together. My wife's 16" Open gun...her Leupold 1.5-5 is on regular AR-height rings on top, and her PDP4 is mounted on the handguard at 2 o'clock using a PowerCustom Ruger 10/22 scope mount rail. Much MUCH cheaper than the LT/YHM option I used on my own rifle, and a bit lighter. Figured out where she wanted the rail, and drilled and tapped some bolts through the mount into the aluminum free-float handguard. Easy. I've done quite a few of these over the years, and the sneaky way is to tighten the handguard down all the way, and then sink the first bolt through the handguard at the joint (where the handguard screws together). That way the scope mount keeps the handguard from shooting loose Anyway, the easy way is a $40 aluminum handguard and a $10 aftermarket 10/22 scope mount (I use those because they already have a radius on the bottom, and I don't have to fire up the mill). If you are feeling really froggy, I usually put half a scope mount forward at 9 o'clock (at the foreward edge of the handguard) for a flashlight, and bolt a sling swivel (with a beveled nut on the inside) forward at BDC for a bipod. Twenty minutes of work, if that, and sixty bucks in parts sure beats a $300 handguard, or even one of the six-side $160 DPMS handguards. Light is good. Alex Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Holy, Alex.... Those AR's are SICK!!!! WOW... what a sweet collection!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Onepoint 0 Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 The only thing with a straight tube that the YHM/ etc has over them is weight, all that aluminum adds up up front, especially on rilfe lengths. Nice setups Wakal. I see I am not the only WECSOG, I am working on a DPMS tube with a full length rail rail from the YHM customizable forearm system. Should come in at about 65 bucks or so cheaper, pretty substantial savings over the dealer setup. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
k_dawg 0 Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 In terms of overall "looks".. I love this rifle. It is DWDude on the 1911 forums I just LOVE how the front handguard extends to the end of the barrel, and nicely matches the ACE stock. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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