menace667 194 Posted July 26, 2011 Report Share Posted July 26, 2011 I recently purchased a Eotech XPS 2-0 and decided to try it out on my S12 since I do not currently have sights on my Chaos extended quad. I gotthe Eotech after much research on the red dot market and I felt it's added heft might make it more durable for Saiga use. I got it in time to use at the redneck nationals this past weekend and was stoked to be the true "high tech redneck" and shoot clays with futuristic technology. I pull out my S12 and my brand spanking new (quality assurance check performed 06/2011) xps2-0 and found that my VCH doesn't really allow it to work good. It makes me place the sight forward of where the charging handle rests naturally which makes the sight picture really akward. Not a big deal and I put it on my AR and had it dialed in deadly in about 15 rounds with iron sight cowitness rocking, but still kinda disappointing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted July 26, 2011 Report Share Posted July 26, 2011 I never even look at my sights, lol. These things are very natural "point shooters", to me. I was wondering why you took the Eotech off of there. I thought the red reticle was making it hard to see the clays. You looked happy now that your weapon was running nicely. I was proud to be a part of it. What's next? Form 1 for SBS? You know you want to.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 I pull out my S12 and my brand spanking new (quality assurance check performed 06/2011) xps2-0 and found that my VCH doesn't really allow it to work good. Inquiring minds want to know.... What impeded what? Is the VCH too close to the optic to grab over the rail? Is the VCH too close to the optic to charge from the right side of the weapon? Can the VCH actually hit the optic while firing? Reason I ask is I've had a few requests recently to space them out from the guns for people who are running optics. Forum member ericinmaryland was the first to receive this mount earlier this month. It's about 1/2" out from the receiver more than your current setup. It's about half way in between the distance where Red Jacket mounts them compared to Tromix's close in mount. I'm also mounting them outward like that for those with quad rails so they can reach the handle by slightly rotating the weapon as they charge without me putting them at periscope height which could be harder on the joint due to leverage. If people intend on a Tromix build in the future (and inform me of this) I mount them low & very close in like a Tromix gun. That's how most of the service guns go out also. Law enforcement & Military who've had to stand around & hold a shotgun on someone for 30 minuets like a gun as light as possible. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Pauly, I think it was clearing the Eotech, but was just really close. The Eotech he bought looks a lot narrower in pics on the net than it does in reality. It probably wouldn't be an issue with an Aimpoint Micro or something similar in width. The charging handle looked great and held out fine through all of the hell raising we did. Good job. Got that menace? .... an Aimpoint Micro.... hint.... ahem.... hint Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 (edited) Hmmm.. sounds like another reason not to fuck with the factory charging handle and to just learn to use it properly. Edited July 27, 2011 by post-apocalyptic 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Hmmm.. sounds like another reason not to fuck with the factory charging handle and to just train to use it properly. Many would disagree. Such as the entire Israeli military with their Galils. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Hmmm.. sounds like another reason not to fuck with the factory charging handle and to just train to use it properly. Many would disagree. Such as the entire Israeli military with their Galils. And the Russian military, (probably MTK himself as well), would agree with me... so who's "right"? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Hmmm.. sounds like another reason not to fuck with the factory charging handle and to just train to use it properly. Many would disagree. Such as the entire Israeli military with their Galils. And the Russian military, (probably MTK himself as well), would agree with me... so who's "right"? Person for person the Israelis would absolutely slaughter the Russians, so my money's on the Israelis... Remember, the AK was built in the 40's. The Galil was based off of the AK for reliability, but improved for modern tactical reasons. Pauly, I think it was clearing the Eotech, but was just really close. The Eotech he bought looks a lot narrower in pics on the net than it does in reality. It probably wouldn't be an issue with an Aimpoint Micro or something similar in width. The charging handle looked great and held out fine through all of the hell raising we did. Good job. Got that menace? .... an Aimpoint Micro.... hint.... ahem.... hint Okay, I can see that. The outwardly extended mount for all railed or optic equipped guns it is from now on. I was wondering why Will at Red Jacket mounts his outward like he does. Added versatility for all optics I guess. Damn.... I'm going to need to write up a questionnaire for people to include in their package so everyone ends up with the correct setup for their desired build. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 (edited) Hmmm.. sounds like another reason not to fuck with the factory charging handle and to just train to use it properly. Many would disagree. Such as the entire Israeli military with their Galils. And the Russian military, (probably MTK himself as well), would agree with me... so who's "right"? Person for person the Israelis would absolutely slaughter the Russians, so my money's on the Israelis... Remember, the AK was built in the 40's. The Galil was based off of the AK for reliability, but improved for modern tactical reasons. I dunno, Paul. A lot of Russkies, (especially the Spetsnaz), might disagree with ya... and they're a bit more formidable than most of the raggers the Israelis have traditionally had to eliminate. Heh, I'm just havin fun with this anyway. To each his own, but I've never found a VCH to be particularly advantageous, or even desirable. ymmv. Edited July 27, 2011 by post-apocalyptic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Damn.... I'm going to need to write up a questionnaire for people to include in their package so everyone ends up with the correct setup for their desired build. I'll contribute.... The question that would be relevant to this situatuion might be worded something like this.... Do you think there is even a teeny tiny remote possibility that if you see an Eotech on sale somewhere that you might buy it on a whim and run it on your Saiga 12 with Chaos rail? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 (edited) Hmmm.. sounds like another reason not to fuck with the factory charging handle and to just train to use it properly. Many would disagree. Such as the entire Israeli military with their Galils. And the Russian military, (probably MTK himself as well), would agree with me... so who's "right"? Person for person the Israelis would absolutely slaughter the Russians, so my money's on the Israelis... Remember, the AK was built in the 40's. The Galil was based off of the AK for reliability, but improved for modern tactical reasons. I dunno, Paul. A lot of Russkies, (especially the Spetsnaz), might disagree with ya... and they're a bit more formidable than most of the raggers the Israelis have traditionally had to eliminate. Well, opinions are like assholes... A lot of people who've actually had to hold a bead on a group of people for a half an hour would likely laugh their asses off at the boat-anchor Halo Quad you had on your gun when you built it. I challange you to put that in your outstreached left hand & try to hold it out there for 30 minuets. Don't even put it on the gun... Just the rail. Dollars to doughnuts you'll start thinking it's pretty damn heavy & won't be able to do it. We can talk about rationale of different builds all day. Long story short, a shotgun is supposed to be light, balanced, quick & versatile. Heh, I'm just havin fun with this anyway. To each his own, but I've never found a VCH to be particularly advantageous, or even desirable. ymmv. Well, that's understandable. The people who choose them do for multiple reasons. Some have girls who use them just like you would use the factory charger, except they lack the strength to pull the charging handle back with 1 finger, so the larger handle enables them to use the weapon whereas they otherwise would have a hard time. MANY with arthritis in their hands choose it for the same reason. Some want to be as quick as possible, so they use it to charge with their left hand by reaching over the gun while their right hand remains on the PG. Edited July 27, 2011 by PauIy 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Damn.... I'm going to need to write up a questionnaire for people to include in their package so everyone ends up with the correct setup for their desired build. I'll contribute.... The question that would be relevant to this situatuion might be worded something like this.... Do you think there is even a teeny tiny remote possibility that if you see an Eotech on sale somewhere that you might buy it on a whim and run it on your Saiga 12 with Chaos rail? Nah, all future builds for guns with quads are going to be the same configuration as ericinmaryland's It'll clear a 12x POSP yet still be practical. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 (edited) Hmmm.. sounds like another reason not to fuck with the factory charging handle and to just train to use it properly. Many would disagree. Such as the entire Israeli military with their Galils. And the Russian military, (probably MTK himself as well), would agree with me... so who's "right"? Person for person the Israelis would absolutely slaughter the Russians, so my money's on the Israelis... Remember, the AK was built in the 40's. The Galil was based off of the AK for reliability, but improved for modern tactical reasons. I dunno, Paul. A lot of Russkies, (especially the Spetsnaz), might disagree with ya... and they're a bit more formidable than most of the raggers the Israelis have traditionally had to eliminate. Well, opinions are like assholes... A lot of people who've actually had to hold a bead on a group of people for a half an hour would likely laugh their asses off at the boat-anchor Halo Quad you had on your gun when you built it. I challange you to put that in your outstreached left hand & try to hold it out there for 30 minuets. Don't even put it on the gun... Just the rail. Dollars to doughnuts you'll start thinking it's pretty damn heavy & won't be able to do it. Also, a lot of Russians (like the entire site Guns.ru) would laugh their asses off at the amount of solid barrel you have. What's your spread at 30 yards? 36"? 50"? I guess you'll be taking out the innocent unless you're shooting at the morbidly obese & hit them dead-on at any distance right? Oh, but you could always add a choke right? Oops, nevermind. I forgot. Impossible to choke it down on your gun. Guess you'll just starve if you ever have to depend on that gun for food, unless of course you can lure a dog to get close enough to shoot, but by that point, you may as well just beat him to death with the gun & save your birdshot for the zombies that you built the gun for. We can talk about rationale of different builds all day. Long story short, a shotgun is supposed to be light, balanced, quick & versatile. Heh, I'm just havin fun with this anyway. To each his own, but I've never found a VCH to be particularly advantageous, or even desirable. ymmv. Well, that's understandable. The people who choose them do for multiple reasons. Some have girls (yes, some of us do, actually, have girls) who use them just like you would use the factory charger, except they lack the strength to pull the charging handle back with 1 finger, so the larger handle enables them to use the weapon whereas they otherwise would have a hard time. MANY with arthritis in their hands choose it for the same reason. Some want to be as quick as possible, so they use it to charge with their left hand by reaching over the gun while their right hand remains on the PG. Paul... the fuck ya talkin about? I've never owned a Halo railed handguard. A couple years ago, I had a Kross tri-rail that kept coming loose under fire, so I returned it. I had a Chaos tri-rail that fit nicely, but since trying the factory handguard after Lone Star Arms modded it, I've never gone back. You and I agree that the railed handguards are a bit heavy, which is why I haven't used them in years. If my gun's barrel is so "worthless" now, I assume you similarly condemn all SBS's? I'll have to bring the camera along next range trip so I can show you what she can still do with slugs, (hell, I'll try buckshot too, she'll pattern better than you predict). Don't make me call Mike's attention to this thread. I don't plan on hunting with my LSA S-12, but I definitely could if necessary.. well enough to not starve, anyway. Besides, I have other shotguns, (including a NIB '08 S-12), for that, not to mention all my rifles. Also, as you have to know, you can charge a Kalashnikov with your left hand by reaching either under the receiver, or over it. You don't need a VCH for this. As for those with arthritis or who are physically weak.. *shrug* I don't have such problems, nor do most of us here. Anyway, I'm not sure why you have to get so hostile when I try to kid around with ya and take a different, (but not aggressive), point of view. Take a breath and chill, Paul. I'm your friend and have generally supported everything you've done since you joined the forum. Edited July 27, 2011 by post-apocalyptic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Sorry man. I'm buried up to my eyballs in charging handle installs & I've put a ton of time into research & development into the processes for them due to the high demand. Damn things can take 2 days how I do them, so I actually lose a bit of money considering I can turn out 6 GlassBolts in the same time it takes me for 1 VCH. Above post edited as to not offend those with SBS's... Wouldn't want to diss on someone's choice by saying it's useless when it's simply not my preference for the reasons stated. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 (edited) Sorry man. I'm buried up to my eyballs in charging handle installs & I've put a ton of time into research & development into the processes for them due to the high demand. Damn things can take 2 days how I do them, so I actually lose a bit of money considering I can turn out 6 GlassBolts in the same time it takes me for 1 VCH. Above post edited as to not offend those with SBS's... Wouldn't want to diss on someone's choice by saying it's useless when it's simply not my preference for the reasons stated. Np, man. I figured the situation was something like that. Stress'll make us all more irritible and defensive than we normally would be. Y'know, my position's not set in stone. I'll have to PM you for details on your VCH's.. and consider one as an option for my aforementioned NIB '08 RAAC 4-port IZ-109. I want some of your Izzy decals regardless. Edited July 27, 2011 by post-apocalyptic 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peckaldee 12 Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 My wife using the VCH was the determining factor in choosing that option. She could never work the bolt with the factory setup. It is now no problem for her. I must say that Glassbolt helped the smoothness of the action but it wasn't that bad beforehand. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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