.223 magazines final analysis

[saiga3way 1]

I'm not too sure if this topic has been addressed in this fashion, so if it has, accept my apologies in advance. In either case, this has been bugging me...

 

I purchased a saiga .223, 16" barrel. I initially purchased 3 Surefire 20 round magazines to get me started (that is, after my 922r standard fare). I eventually fell into a deal for some 30 round Pro Mag magazines as well. I know how crappy the mags are by so many of your opinions and experiences, but just bear with me for a moment.

 

When I got the 8 other Pro Mags, I immediately tried placing them in the rifle and testing fitment. On the first and third magazines, the bullet guide tab snapped clean off even without bullets loaded. (there was no problem with the Surefires). The question then arose if I wanted to bother with sending mags back and forth through the mail. Personally, I didn't want to bother, and thankfully, I had already purchased one of Dinzag's bullet guide kits, so I decided to do the conversion. The magazine body did seem to be pretty stable, after all.

 

After placing the bullet guide and snapping off the rest of the plastic bullet guides on the Pro Mags (had to use a dremel cut off wheel on the Surefires), I apparently did an excellent job because the Surefires lock up perfectly flush with the bottom of the bullet guide and the Pro Mags are as close as they can be, considering that they already fit a little looser than the Surefires. Under load testing with live rounds, none of the magazines seem to malfunction or fail. Tomorrow, I plan on taking them to the range for final testing. It is from my experience so far that I wanted to post this:

 

I understand that none of these magazines that I am using are "mil-spec", but this is what I have the budget for right now (I still have to deal with my saiga -12 and saiga 308). I just noticed that all of the best magazines, especially the milsurp ones that everyone here talk about share one thing in common: none them appear to have built in bullet guides.

 

Is it at all possible that the lack of a bullet guide in the rifle itself is part of the "Clintonizing process" that Russia might have had to do in order to sporterize the gun in the first place? I mean, the only thing that kept the rifles from accepting milsurp mags is the bullet guide and some fitting.

 

No flak against Surefire for their mags. They are excellent in build quality and reliability so far, but it seems that the pro mags are good for only one thing: basically being an American-made milsurp knock-off that pretends to have a real bullet guide. I know that I still have the live fire test tomorrow, but right now, both magazines are functionally at a dead heat with the Surefires well ahead in the fitment area.

 

I have rambled enough for now, but I have one final question: If making the gun reach it's full potential means de-sporterizing it completely, then shouldn't we consider this in the initial cost in the beginning? We have 922r and a host of other things to address in order to achieve that reliability we all seek for. Wouldn't it be even better if we simply found still other ways to harden the "sporty" aspects of our guns?

 

Any input is appreciated.

 

saiga3way

Edited November 4, 2011 by saiga3way

[mancat 2,368]

Is it at all possible that the lack of a bullet guide in the rifle itself is part of the "Clintonizing process" that Russia might have had to do in order to sporterize the gun in the first place? I mean, the only thing that kept the rifles from accepting milsurp mags is the bullet guide and some fitting.

 

No flak against Surefire for their mags. They are excellent in build quality and reliability so far, but it seems that the pro mags are good for only one thing: basically being an American-made milsurp knock-off that pretends to have a real bullet guide. I know that I still have the live fire test tomorrow, but right now, both magazines are functionally at a dead heat with the Surefires well ahead in the fitment area.

 

I have rambled enough for now, but I have one final question: If making the gun reach it's full potential means de-sporterizing it completely, then shouldn't we consider this in the initial cost in the beginning? We have 922r and a host of other things to address in order to achieve that reliability we all seek for. Wouldn't it be even better if we simply found still other ways to harden the "sporty" aspects of our guns?

 

Yes, the lack of a bullet guide is part of the castration process of the Saiga, in that it mostly prevents the use of surplus mil-spec magazines. However, apparently some people still have no problem with them on 5.45 models, though I doubt the rifle is as reliable as it would be with the guide.

 

There are no mil-spec AK mags that have bullet guide tabs such as Saiga-specific mags do. Therefore, any Saiga-specific mag cannot really be considered mil-spec. All new Russian mil-spec AK rifles in the AK-10x series continue to have a bullet guide to this day.

 

I don't know about how others approach the price of the Saiga, but for me I purchased mine knowing that I would convert it, so the conversion cost was something that I always considered. I never even fired it until it was converted. I wanted a .223 AK, and my only options were really a used rifle such as a SAR-3, overpriced Yugo or Chinese .223 clones with odd magazine compatibility, or an Arsenal SLR-106 or Bulgarian SA series, both of which are still several hundred dollars more than my total cost of conversion.

Edited November 4, 2011 by mancat

[swells08 128]

I have not had any issues with well over 2000 rounds through my promags. I know they are cheap and suck in original configuration but they appear to be perfect for the bullet guided conversions. I also have some galil mags from tapco that work great and I got them for ten bucks each...I also have some 35 rounders from Israel they appear to all function the same.

[jimdigriz 580]

I understand that none of these magazines that I am using are "mil-spec", but this is what I have the budget for right now (I still have to deal with my saiga -12 and saiga 308).

 

But you need a few first rate magazines at least. It's a shame to have to compromise a very tough, reliable fighting system at one of the key points. I recommend buying two or three Weigers or Circle 10s as your fighting mags, and the rest can be mostly range mags.

Edited November 5, 2011 by Jim Digriz

[saiga3way 1]

That's a great idea! As of today's count, I already have 11 mags for the .223, not counting the original Magazine. I suppose that puts me out of the market for range mags. I only got that much because of the deal on the Pro Mags. Which of the Weigers or Circle 10s is able to fit best with the least fuss?

[jimdigriz 580]

Which of the Weigers or Circle 10s is able to fit best with the least fuss?

 

Difficult to say, but probably the Weigers. Depends on your rifle.

[wpflgun 3]

I picked up a ProMag WASR .223 mag recently to try. It is made for non-Saiga's and has no built-in bullet guide. I did have to make a slight alteration for it to lock up properly, as I have for the Galil's, but that was easy. It appears to be satisfactory, although the spring seems to be weaker than my Tapco Galil mags. It hand cycles just fine, haven't gotten it to the range yet for the "acid test".

[saiga3way 1]

I Initially thought that people were buying the milsurp mags because they were cheaper than the American counterparts, but I now notice so far that there is no appreciable difference in price... At least so far. Regardless, I'll be in the market for about 4-5 mags of whichever type I get. The three long guns I have are designed for three purposes in my configuration: 1) sport shooting (hoping to possibly attempt 3 gun next year), 2) hunting (next year is going to be exciting hunting whitetail deer, wild hogs, turkey, and possibly rabbit), and 3) home defense (self-explanatory). Reliability has always been paramount to me with accuracy a close second.

 

The range I'm going to is an indoor that only allows use of their fragmentation rounds for shooting rifles. They should still cycle just fine for tomorrow's test.

 

Just found out that the fragmentation rounds are gonna cost me $18 per 30 rounds!!! this is gonna be one expensive test!

Edited November 5, 2011 by saiga3way

[mancat 2,368]

My personal preference is for steel magazines. Weiger or Galils. I haven't tried the Weigers in mine, as the cost is a bit up there, but the steel Galils work perfect and are very well made.

[saiga3way 1]

I guess I'll have to look into all three. I don't want to have some absurd mishmash of magazine types hanging around. I kinda like a set feel to my setup, especially when considering the sport shooting aspect of my purchases.

[GregM1 241]

i have steel romanian (wieger-likes) and circle 10s. these require modification of the mag catch and interdiction tab. they are very great and reliable mags. you may need to modify more depending on your guns build by the factory. also the romanians are a bit shorter then the circle 10s

 

i haven't used the galil steel but the reviews are great also, if you get ones that fit well into your gun. some are hit and miss in which the bullet will feed lower. i believe they require less work to make work in the gun also. just filing of the mag catch. i do not think the interdiction tab needs filed.

 

if going for a fighting mag setup, i would recommend a single choice of magazines. keep it uniform to make working them easier in time of need. from a collector standpoint, get em all!

Edited November 5, 2011 by GregM1

[jimdigriz 580]

i haven't used the galil steel but the reviews are great also, if you get ones that fit well into your gun. some are hit and miss in which the bullet will feed lower. i believe they require less work to make work in the gun also. just filing of the mag catch. i do not think the interdiction tab needs filed.

 

Galil steels should only need a bullet guide.

[saiga3way 1]

Looking into this so far, it is starting to seem like the Weigers might be the better bet. Though the Galils require less to fit, there are many reports of steep bullet angle, which I can only suppose would result in comparatively accelerated guide wear. Weigers, though they may take more to fit, seem to have a better angle once inserted. The price differential in the long run for maintenance is then mitigated to almost never to once in a lifetime per user. That's more than reliable enough for me. More research is ongoing...

[jimdigriz 580]

Looking into this so far, it is starting to seem like the Weigers might be the better bet. Though the Galils require less to fit, there are many reports of steep bullet angle, which I can only suppose would result in comparatively accelerated guide wear. Weigers, though they may take more to fit, seem to have a better angle once inserted. The price differential in the long run for maintenance is then mitigated to almost never to once in a lifetime per user. That's more than reliable enough for me. More research is ongoing...

 

Also, a lot of the Galils are worn out or close to worn out, in terms of their spring. So, even though they are cheaper, it is a false economy. (They also wobble, whereas Weigers can be made to lock up tight). The Weigers I've been getting from APEX are basically new condition, except perhaps some mild discoloration from years in storage.

Edited November 5, 2011 by Jim Digriz

[GregM1 241]

Galil steels should only need a bullet guide.

 

 

thanks jim. i want to try a galil steel one of these days and see if it will work after the interdiction tab has been filed or if there will be to much back and forth.

 

 

 

Also, a lot of the Galils are worn out or close to worn out, in terms of their spring. So, even though they are cheaper, it is a false economy. (They also wobble, whereas Weigers can be made to lock up tight). The Weigers I've been getting from APEX are basically new condition, except perhaps some mild discoloration from years in storage.

 

i prefer my romy wieger clones too. they fit much easier than the 10s but they are harder to find.

[jimdigriz 580]

Galil steels should only need a bullet guide.

 

 

thanks jim. i want to try a galil steel one of these days and see if it will work after the interdiction tab has been filed or if there will be to much back and forth.

 

The interdiction tab doesn't really affect how those wobble. The problem is that

1) the feedlips in the very front do not press against those little thingamajiggers on the side inside of the receiver:

(Weiger mag pictured)

 

And, 2) The locking tab in the back is too thin.

 

The Weigers were oversized a bit for my gun, at the feedlips and at the locking tab, which allows them to be filed to a perfect fit. The Galil steels are undersized at those locations and therefore wobble. With significant wobble, feeding malfunctions can be induced at certain angles.

 

My opinion: If you already have Weigers, or Romy Wieger clones, Galil steels are a big step down. And, by the way, Weigers have an even shorter profile than the Romy variant (and probably than any other .223 AK mag), which is yet another reason I prefer them.

Edited November 5, 2011 by Jim Digriz

[saiga3way 1]

I'm finally back from the range, and short version if the story, all magazines were functionally perfect. The ammo itself, well, that's another story...

 

I started off with the Surefire mag first. No problems until the 6th round, when a bad round in the mag pressed itself backwards fully into the cartridge, spilling all of its gunpowder everywhere. After cleaning up that mess, the rest went smoothly. On to the Pro Mag. Tenth and twelfth rounds both ftf. Not the fault of the magazine, however. After repeated single load attempts, the rounds would not enter battery. I wasn't going to force it into battery, either, so I kept all three of the errant rounds. All other rounds functioned perfectly.

 

I can only assume that the range's special ammo is some sort of frangible reloads that they charge a premium for. That notwithstanding, I managed to get the red dot zeroed in to the point of about a 3/4" group in a three shot string at 25 yards (the indoor range maximum). I even managed a 1/4" group in a three shot string at the same distance!!! All of this was done standing upright, unsupported. The scope is unmagnified. Next year is gonna be great!

 

By the way, I am also arranging for an outdoor range session with a gunsmith friend of mine. I'll then do an official supported 5 shot grouping to make sure that my shooting wasn't some sort of first time fluke.

Edited November 6, 2011 by saiga3way

[saiga3way 1]

Okay, now it is official. The Weigers win out on my personal choice of mags to purchase. I am very partial to the tight lockup of a magazine to my weapon -- it kinda makes it feel more integral and secure, like one solid piece. Additionally, the price difference in magazines doesn't justify compensation for any of the others. It's only a couple bucks one way or the other for the most part. I plan on purchasing 3-5 of them in the relatively near future. Thanks for all of the input so far.

 

By the way, I'll be planning the outdoor range time tomorrow. This time I plan to have pics available to show performance. The other day at the range, I was limited to only 1 hour in my lane! Kinda hard to zero my rifle, test the mags, then test the spring/gas system on the s-12 before time was up. . .

[jimdigriz 580]

Okay, now it is official. The Weigers win out on my personal choice of mags to purchase.

 

Good choice.

 

Here's a tutorial I did on fitting them:

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/67063-fitting-weiger-mags-to-the-saiga-223/

 

Your gun may not need every step.

[chunga 31]

Jim, are the Weigers available from any forum sponsors? So far I haven't had any problems with Circle 10, OEM, Surefire, and *gasp* even Promags with bullet guide. Very minor filing is all thats required but if I could find some Weigers I'd like to give them a try.

[jimdigriz 580]

Jim, are the Weigers available from any forum sponsors? So far I haven't had any problems with Circle 10, OEM, Surefire, and *gasp* even Promags with bullet guide. Very minor filing is all thats required but if I could find some Weigers I'd like to give them a try.

 

As far as I know, only APEX offers them right now. I probably wouldn't bother with them though if the Circle 10s were problem-free in my rifle, as they sound like they are in yours. Here's my rough ranking of mags for the Saiga 223 (having tried most of them), from best to worst:

1) Circle 10s (black)

2) Weigers

3) Romy Weiger clones (they are not exact clones, though, being longer)

4) Circle 10s (clear)

5) Orlites

6) Galil steel

7) Surefire/Tapco

8) Promag

 

But the order may vary, depending on whether a given mag type fits well and works well in your individual rifle. Also, some of the surplus mags may have worn out springs.

 

The one advantage the Weigers offer over the Circle 10 is their very short and thin profile. But that probably has little weight with most.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Jim Digriz

[chunga 31]

I think maybe I'm just hooked on tinkering and looking for something to do. So far I've run quite a few XM193, PMC X-Tac 62gr., Rem .223 UMC, PMC .REM .223, and a few others without a hitch through all the mags I've had to hit with the dremel. I'm saving a few Surefires in case something unexpected happens to my BG. Now that my coversion is complete maybe I just need to do another one...lol. Where to buy though? CTD has them for $350. As hard as I try to buy local I see them in shops *used* for more???

 

The final touch was the Phantom flash hider - which I'm a little disappointed in. At night it used to look like a flame-thrower. Now all I get is a tiny flash.

[bohound 281]

I was using quite the mishmash of mags too... Combat mags were Galil flavor.

 

Now I'm using primarily Pmags.

 

ETA: Chunga, that's pretty much the POINT of a flash hider. Get an SEI Vortex and you'll see pretty much NO flash.

Edited November 9, 2011 by bohound

[chunga 31]

I was using quite the mishmash of mags too... Combat mags were Galil flavor.

 

Now I'm using primarily Pmags.

 

ETA: Chunga, that's pretty much the POINT of a flash hider. Get an SEI Vortex and you'll see pretty much NO flash.

I know. I'm just kidding around. My neighbor just ordered one from CTD mainly for the amazing muzzle blast...lol. Cool? Possibly yes. Helpful in a gunfight?. Definately No.

[bohound 281]

I was using quite the mishmash of mags too... Combat mags were Galil flavor.

 

Now I'm using primarily Pmags.

 

ETA: Chunga, that's pretty much the POINT of a flash hider. Get an SEI Vortex and you'll see pretty much NO flash.

I know. I'm just kidding around. My neighbor just ordered one from CTD mainly for the amazing muzzle blast...lol. Cool? Possibly yes. Helpful in a gunfight?. Definately No.

 

Take it you don't plan to get into a gunfight at night.

 

Don't have a light on your rifle either, do ya?

[chunga 31]

I hope I never have to get in a gunfight. If I did, it would be because someone threatened me or mine with deadly force leaving me absolutely no other option. Shots fired at me with the "cool" flash better be good! I'll spot ya a mile away!

 

No ideas on where to buy another .223 from a forum vendor? Dinzag, CSS, MAA and the others have all been great to deal with. I really try my best to buy locally but I'll only go so far.

[jimdigriz 580]

Take it you don't plan to get into a gunfight at night.

 

Don't have a light on your rifle either, do ya?

 

I'm not sure a light on the rifle is all it's cracked up to be. Gives the bad guy a good target, for one thing.

 

I've taken a different approach. I have some lights in my house that only turn on with motion. They're not super-bright, but way more than enough to see the adversaries with. I concentrate them at the entry points.

[GregM1 241]

Jim, i think your list is pretty good but i personally think the weiger/romys are better than the 10's. they just fit with less effort. i might also wonder if surefire should be above the galil steel with all the hit and miss mags out there.

 

I'm not sure a light on the rifle is all it's cracked up to be. Gives the bad guy a good target, for one thing.

 

I've taken a different approach. I have some lights in my house that only turn on with motion. They're not super-bright, but way more than enough to see the adversaries with. I concentrate them at the entry points.

 

i see lights on guns as a double edged sword. if you are to far off or run to little power, it will only show your position as you mentioned, but with the right light at <15', you can thoroughly disable a persons ability to focus on a target behind the light, while the light holder will have no trouble seeing.

 

i also have a few of the little motion lights placed like you are referring too. not only at entry points but down a hall or outside any bedroom door. you can see it light up before the door is opened. home depot has them for very cheap.

Edited November 9, 2011 by GregM1

[jimdigriz 580]

Jim, i think your list is pretty good but i personally think the weiger/romys are better than the 10's. they just fit with less effort.

 

Fitting is an individual rifle issue. I had trouble with the black circle 10s, and not with the Weigers. However, if an individual rifle has no serious fitting issues with the circle 10s, I think they are preferable because they are lighter (only 2 ounces lighter fully loaded, but every little bit helps), not subject to rust and discoloration from finger oils, and are new manufacture. (This last is not a _huge_ deal considering the Weigers available now are unissued, which is almost as good as new).

 

i might also wonder if surefire should be above the galil steel with all the hit and miss mags out there.

Yea, I wavered on that one. A good Galil mag is superior to a Surefire in my view, but a lot of them are not good, as you say.

[chunga 31]

I noticed something last night about the Circle 10 mags. A ordered a batch of them but didn't take them all from the pkgs. The catch on the rear of just one of them was clearly not identical to the others. So not only do the rifles vary - the mags do too. If you have several you intend to fit look at all of them closely before doing anything. What needs to be done to one may not apply to them all.