Odd stovepipes/FTF/Doubles with Wolf?

[Brian M1 50]

Today, at the range, I had 4 FTE/Stovepipes with Wolf Polyformance 62gr FMJ's. I've been using Silver Bear 62gr JHP's with zero issues, but saw a great deal on Wolf so figured I'd try it. The FTE's were with different mags, with the offenders at vary mag counts (somewhere in the middle of the mag rounds). The failures were with the front of the spent casing stovepiping on the ejection port. Slanted, with front of casing strattling the front trunion/ejection port. The round beneath it had already begun to chamber (thus requiring a mag drop and clear drill). Not all of the Wolf did this, and I also ran more SB JHP's with zero issues. I'm not at all comfortable with THAT type of (sort of) double feed failure, as it cannot be cleared simply by hand cycling (requires mag drop). Upon closer inspection of some samples of the spent Wolf casings, I notice that the case mouths were rough, unlike the smooth case mouths of the spent SB's. Granted, I've never had FTF with either, so at least that part's good to go. What's with the ragged case mouths on spent Wolf casings?

Anyone else with FTE/Stovepipe/Double Feed's? I'd like to like the Wolf ammo, as it shot well, but not unless I get these occassional issues sorted.

Info: freshly cleaned rifle, 100 rds, 4 failures (Wolf only), with SB's randomly used (no failures with SB's). 2 failures with 1 mag (runs fine with SB), and 2 failures with 2 diff mags (also run fine with SB). All mags Saiga-specific SGM for use without BG. 2 30rd, 1 20rd, 1 10rd.

Any advice?

 

Also noticed that my Saiga does not dent casings at all.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Brian M1

[mancat 2,368]

How far away do your extracted casings end up?

 

Because almost ALL Saigas dent the hell out of casings, I'm wondering if yours may be undergassed for some reason. Perhaps it is not ejecting casings violently enough to contact the dustcover/carrier, which would also explain the occasional stovepiping of spent rounds if it occasionally short-strokes and fails to eject the case.

 

BUT.. Always suspect your magazines and ammunition first. Double feeds of live ammunition are often to blame on the magazine - e.g. it may sit too high and is allowing the bolt to strip two rounds at once, or perhaps the feed lips are worn/warped and the rounds are not being held tightly enough in a stack to prevent the leading round from pulling the next round down out of the mag a little bit.

 

FWIW I have seen some "rippling" on the neck of Wolf Polyformance and Wolf MC. This just seems to be how they are crimping the bullet. My Saiga loves Wolf .223, never had a problem with it.

 

Sorry.. Sort of hard to diagnose these types of problems over the web. Hope this helps!.

Edited June 26, 2012 by mancat

[Brian M1 50]

The undergassing is something I'd not considered. Good point! Unfortunately, I have no idea how far casing eject, as I was shooting at an indoor range with side divider/barriers for individual lanes. All but 3 of the spent casings flew well forward and to the side of me, clearing the barriers and landing into the shooting zone of the range itself (clearing the barrier, well forward of me). Could the angle (forward, side, or rearward) of ejected spent casings tell me anything about gassing?

Edited June 26, 2012 by Brian M1

[mwc 2]

ive had some bad luck w/ wolf 62gr (a case i purchased cheap a couple of years ago). i found it odd that it chokes an ak, so i started inspecting the cartridges better as i loaded the mags......i noticed lots of instances of split necks, long necks, inconsistent neck crimps, shaved jackets/jacket bunching at the case neck, etc.....seems that this lot had no apparent QC before it left the factory, or maybe it was a whole bunch of rejects packaged for quick/cheap sale.....kinda turned me off to wolf, and i stick w/ silver bear now.......seems you may have the same probs i had.

[Brian M1 50]

Thanks MWC! Yes, it's entirely possible I got a bad lot of Wolf. I'll try to burn up some more this weekend at the range to see what happens (rifle has been cleaned already since last week's shooting). Like you, I've had zero problems with SB, and for the little extra $ (very little) it costs... it seems a much better round (both the zink plated casings AND the quality control). Only problem with SB is it's harder to find. The best deals I find on them are from The Sportsmans Guide.

However... I'm hoping the rest of the Wolf lot I have runs ok, because I'd like to have faith in Wolf as it's SOOO easy to find!

[mancat 2,368]

Yep nothing new. Same QC problems as Tulammo. I have found the Russian .223 out of the Barnaul plant is the most consistent. Most Wolf Polyformance and Military Classic, as well as Brown/Silver Bear is stamped from Barnaul, and I've had few problems with it.

 

Does your Wolf have a headstamp on it that says anything other than "Wolf"?

[Brian M1 50]

Well, went to the range today and fired off another 100 rounds of that Wolf 62 Polyformance. This time I had about 8 failures to extract (again, in a clean rifle). I had one jam so bad, I dropped the mag and the bolt wouldn't even cycle. Froze solid. I popped the dust cover, and a spent casing came falling out! How in the world I got next to the bolt under the dust cover is beyond me?! Never again will I order Wolf. BTW, after the Wolf, I ran off a 30 rounder of Silver Bear, which performed flawlessly. Oh well. I wanted an AK, so I could shoot ANY .223, and wound up with finicky shooter! I could have gone with an AR for that! haha.

Oh well. I've fun with this project, but am not as impressed as I thought I'd be with this rifle. I think my next project will be a DPMS AR with a piston kit.

[VladTepes 160]

for what its worth.. this is something I have never encountered and I have owned many Saigas.. every one of them would shoot ANYTHING without issue.. and I have shot many different pieces of wolf..the newer stuff.. the lacquer coated.. again.. no issues..

[Brian M1 50]

I WISH mine was an "any ammo" rifle! I was kind of hoping to not have to use more expensive ammo for plinking. Ugh. Oh well.. I'll try some other brands as well and see how she goes. I've noticed the Wolf spent casing are not dented in the slightest (nor does Silver Bear get touched on mine), however... I DID notice the Wolf spent casing RIMS are shot to all heck. Deep gouge in them. Looks like someone tried to hammer a knife blade into the rim! Does that say anything? I picked up a few Silver Bear casings (not many though, as I hadn't had issues with them) and didn't notice anything like that. Odd. Any ideas on that?

Next time I go to the range (hopefully this weekend), I'll bring my camera and try to snap off a pick of the jams, and casing (quickly, as this range has a thing against pictures being taken in the range for some reaon).

[shootsmuch 9]

after countless hours of tumultuous analysis i have come to a conclusion. dump the stuff that dont work and shoot the stuff that does work.

[Brian M1 50]

Ugh. This rifle is really p$ssing me off. I'm now sure the failure to ejects are NOT ammo related. Fired off about 150 rounds today of Wolf 62 FMJ, Silver Bear 62 HP, PMC 55 X-tac, used 6 different mags (including factory 10 rounder) and I must have had about 12 failures to eject today. Every mag, every ammo had some failures (although Wolf was the worst offender). There is something wrong with my rifle. I've checked the extractor (looks fine, no chips/etc, spring's fine), the ejector (also looks fine, no burs, no bends, no sharp edges), yet still wind up with THIS on multiple occassions:

That was with quality brass PMC X-tac NATO ammo (55gr xm193). It did the same thing with SB and Wolf.

THEN I get another one of THESE:

I have NO idea how a casing can slide beside the bolt and get wedged between the bolt carrier and dust cover (thus binding up the action and requiring a field stripping), but it did... for the SECOND time. I've had it with this POS. I can not, for the life of me, figure this thing out (and I'm VERY mechanically inclined). Hate to have to spend ridiculous $ for a "smith", but I refuse to turn in a malfunctioning rifle for resale (thus screwing the next owner), so have to get this sorted out. If I can get it working to a normal AK reliablity (basically back to 100%), then I'll keep it anyway, as I'm in LOVE with it's simplicity. But right now, this thing is a P.O.S.

p.s... sorry about the crappy pics, range does not allow camera's, so I had to quickly snap thiese off via Iphone.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Brian M1

[mancat 2,368]

After seeing those pics, it looks like your extractor may be letting go of the case. You may want to do a detail strip of the bolt to check the condition of the extractor spring, and check for any obstructions of the extractor movement.

[muvef 3]

Keep us updated. The information could be useful to some one else down the road. Thanks.

[Brian M1 50]

Keep us updated. The information could be useful to some one else down the road. Thanks.

Will do. I have given up and going to have an AK specialist gunsmith look at it (as I've exhausted all of my mechanical skills trying to figure it out).

On a side note, I've noticed SOME of my SGM mags (and the factory ones) getting deeply nicked at the front (built in bullet guide). I'm not happy with this (I thought they polymer would hold up better after just a few hundred rounds), so I'm going to shave the front tabs down and install a bullet guide. Nothing against the polymer (built in bullet guide) mags, I'm just not happy with the rate in which they are wearing. I'm sure a metal bullet guide will solve that issue.

 

ps.. anyone know of a GOOD AK 'smith near the Philadelphia PA area? There's a great one out near Stanton, I think, but I'd rather not have to make that trek.

[shootsmuch 9]

you have nothing to lose by going with a bullet guide and getting some good steel mil mags. then you can go ahead and dremil down those plastic mags built in bullet guides and you will still be able to use them also. i installed a dinzag guide in both my Saigas and use 35 round steel galils mags and never have a FTF..check on this site, there are some good recomendations for mags..

[liberty -r- death 1,445]

I'd agree it looks like it may be an extractor problem. May be as simple as replacing the spring.

[thebuns1 4,323]

have you tried taking the dust cover off and cycling rounds by hand? may be able to get a better look at whats happening. if its not in your bolt, then the rounds are getting hung up and coming off your bolt before they hit the ejector, landing in all sorts of places.

[Brian M1 50]

If anyone's interested in this issue in the future, or wondering as to WHO is responsible for RAA Saiga imported rifles warrany work... I've moved over to the "tech" section for this thread:

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/78943-failures-to-eject-gunsmith-in-philadelphia-pa/

Edited July 12, 2012 by Brian M1