Can't decide which to buy Saiga .410 or the Saiga 20 gauge

[Wallaby50 1]

Hello all,

 

I'm new to the forum. I joined the forum to learn from the veterans. I've read many post and decided to join.

I want to buy a Saiga but I'm still torn between the two. 20 or .410. Ether would be great for HD and my honey could shoot it without getting bruised up.

 

Is it true that attachments for the 20 are few? How about the .410?

 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Wallaby50

[mostholycerebus 415]

20 gauge. The 410 is crap, its a useless round that Taurus made popular with their Judge line. Trendy garbage. Check out The Box of Truth so see how (in)effective the round is. Fine for plinking, but if yer plinking might as well go with something cheaper like 7.62x39 or an AR15 with .22 upper.

 

20 gauge is an effective stopping round, getting more effective all the time with modern ammo. It may not be quite as good as 12ga, but follow up shots are faster and on target better because of reduced recoil. Reduced recoil also means less fatigue at the range, which translates to more practice, and more effective practice.

[liberty -r- death 1,445]

20 gauge. The 410 is crap, its a useless round that Taurus made popular with their Judge line. Trendy garbage. Check out The Box of Truth so see how (in)effective the round is. Fine for plinking, but if yer plinking might as well go with something cheaper like 7.62x39 or an AR15 with .22 upper.

 

20 gauge is an effective stopping round, getting more effective all the time with modern ammo. It may not be quite as good as 12ga, but follow up shots are faster and on target better because of reduced recoil. Reduced recoil also means less fatigue at the range, which translates to more practice, and more effective practice.

 

Humbly disagree. With the right load and distance to target .410 works just fine at knock'n down bad guy. Larger gushed does you no good if you are afraid to shoot it because it hurts when you do.

 

.410 has always been popular and was around long before Taurus. Look at the .410 section to see test patterns I've done with mine.

[Wallaby50 1]

What about the accessory factor I mentioned? Can you find upgrades for either fairly easy?

[YOT 3,743]

The 410 is crap, its a useless round that Taurus made popular with their Judge line. Trendy garbage.

 

I don't agree with this at all. 410 has bee around as long as shotguns have been gauged. It has been proven for upland bird wing shooting, sporting clay shooting, and small game hunting. It is a great entry level shotgun for kids and women and even some men who may be recoil sensitive. It absolutely has a place in the shotgun world.

 

My only problem with it is there are no "cheap" 100 round bulk pack ammo like there is for 12 and 20 gauge.

[Wallaby50 1]

The 410 is crap, its a useless round that Taurus made popular with their Judge line. Trendy garbage.

 

I don't agree with this at all. 410 has bee around as long as shotguns have been gauged. It has been proven for upland bird wing shooting, sporting clay shooting, and small game hunting. It is a great entry level shotgun for kids and women and even some men who may be recoil sensitive. It absolutely has a place in the shotgun world.

 

My only problem with it is there are no "cheap" 100 round bulk pack ammo like there is for 12 and 20 gauge.

I hadn't thought about bulk ammo being an issue....great to know this. Thank you.

[Dad2142Dad 6,559]

What about the accessory factor I mentioned? Can you find upgrades for either fairly easy?

 

Go here http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/StoreFront and search 410, there are plenty of options for both.

[Marc 147]

I agree that 410 is crap as far as personal/home defense is concerned when there are calibers/gauges available that are much more suited to the role. However, the sporting aspects of the 410 bore shotgun are proven and it will be around long after the Judge looses popularity.

 

20 gauge is a good all around shotgun; bulk packs make plinking and practice cheap, hunting loads can do everything a 12 ga can, and buckshot and slug loads for HD are comparable to the 12 ga reduced recoil offerings.

 

Also, Federal offers a copper plated reduced recoil buckshot load in 20 ga if even the standard 2 3/4" buckshot loads kick to much.

[MAAnew 162]

I would scrap both and buy the Saiga 12 or the VEPR 12. Less than 1% of our Saiga accessory sales are to customers who are wanting to trick out their Saiga 20s, but probably 25% of our calls with some type of magazine or gun issue are with the Saiga 20.

 

The Saiga 410 is not a bad gun if you shoot the right type of shells through it. The biggest problem with the Saiga 410 for new owners if finding the type of shells that works the best in their gun.

 

 

 

 

 

Hello all,

 

I'm new to the forum. I joined the forum to learn from the veterans. I've read many post and decided to join.

I want to buy a Saiga but I'm still torn between the two. 20 or .410. Ether would be great for HD and my honey could shoot it without getting bruised up.

 

Is it true that attachments for the 20 are few? How about the .410?

 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Wallaby50

[csspecs 1,987]

The 20 gauge can be a little annoying to get squared away, once running correctly they are fun to shoot guns and there is a noticeable weight difference. If you reload you can make some nice loads fairly reasonable.

 

I don't own a .410, many people consider them a good squirrel and rabbit gun. The idea being that it has enough power to drop the game but not so much that you ruin the meat.

 

As for parts, we make 10rd magazines for the 20 gauge. We have runs of 2rd 5rd and 8 rd scheduled for later this year.. The rest of the parts are either AK standard for the trigger, stock and pistol grip. And some S-12 parts will also fit gas puck, gas plug, and some of the forearms.

[YOT 3,743]

I don't own a .410, many people consider them a good squirrel and rabbit gun. The idea being that it has enough power to drop the game but not so much that you ruin the meat.

 

Not for nothing, pellets flying at 1260FPS do the same damage no matter what gun they come from.

[mostholycerebus 415]

I apologize, i was indiscrete, .410 is a storied round that does its job well. Its just crap for dropping 150lb+ mammals. Maybe there are now specialized that can be called 'adequate' for that purpose, but I doubt they do it better and cheaper than other rounds.

[csspecs 1,987]

I don't own a .410, many people consider them a good squirrel and rabbit gun. The idea being that it has enough power to drop the game but not so much that you ruin the meat.

 

Not for nothing, pellets flying at 1260FPS do the same damage no matter what gun they come from.

 

Fewer pellets in the load does mean that at any give distance that there will be fewer pellets per square inch.

 

And while you can load a light load for 12 gauge, generally speaking loads lighter than 5/8 ounce will require special components to pattern well. If your use requires a light recoil and low shot volume then the .410 could be ideal... That said I don't own one.

[YOT 3,743]

I don't own a .410, many people consider them a good squirrel and rabbit gun. The idea being that it has enough power to drop the game but not so much that you ruin the meat.

 

Not for nothing, pellets flying at 1260FPS do the same damage no matter what gun they come from.

 

Fewer pellets in the load does mean that at any give distance that there will be fewer pellets per square inch.

 

 

Of course you're right about that. A 3" Mag 000 buck 410 only has five .36 cal. pellets, whereas a 3"Mag 000buck 12 ga. has 10 pellets. Both are around 1225 FPS.

 

ETA: I don't want to be 20 yards in front of either.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Yeoldetool

[timy 1,185]

Welcome to the forum. I'm glad you have recognized my expertise (or lack thereof).

 

Seriously though, since you included your honey, I would say neither of the above. The 20 is more than adequate as a HD weapon but recoil from a shotgun is just that. There are "manly men" here that obviously don't have a problem with it, but again, you said your honey was involved.

 

The 410 on the other hand offers reduced recoil but also reduced spread and mass. I would be comfortable with it for HD but only with slugs. At that point, it approaches what I consider the ideal HD weapon given it will also be used by a woman that may be uncomfortable with strong recoil. And that would be.... the pistol caliber carbine.

 

I have numerous and varied weapons but constantly go back to my Ruger PC4 as my primary HD one. Reason being, 180 grains at several hundred FPS over a similar calibered pistol, plus pinpoint accuracy and extremely quick follow up shots. There is a slowly diminishing preference for shotguns over other weapons as primary HD tools but I left them long ago.

 

Not to say a shotgun wouldn't do the job, of course. Such a statement would be silly. But is it the best for the job? I would emphatically say 'no'. I trust my family's life to the PC carbine every day and have zero doubts as to my wife's abilty to utilize it as well.

 

Recoil? What is that?

[mostholycerebus 415]

Rather than a PC4 I would suggest an AR15. The reason so many police use them now is because they are one of the best best ballistic stopping rounds, but because of the fragmentation + tumbling they do not overpenetrate as much as pretty much ANY other round that will stop an assailant. If you dont care as much about overpenetration (live on a farm, etc), the .40 is pretty darn good. With a midlenth gas system and rifle buffer, AR15 recoil is minimal.

 

However, keep in mind, science is science. You need enough force to punch through a few layers of denim/coats, 4+ inches of meat and bone, and then spread enough to incapacitate before you get stabbed or shot yourself. Building codes are also what they are, so any force adequate to do that job IS going to go through several layers of drywall. Science is science, so any force that can reliably drop an assailant is also pushing that force against your shoulder. I have three women shooters in my family, and none have an issue with 20ga. The better solution is probably Federal flite wad #1 buck, which recoils like a 20ga but with alot more lead. Though, a proper set up AR will give you more manueverability, capacity, and less recoil. Doesnt look good in court though.

 

Which is a factor, Depending on your state, the AR could be a bad choice. With the PC4 you can claim "i chose it because i heard its what cops use". My 870 is setup with wood instead of synthetic so it looks like a family hunting gun, not something a gun nut maniac would use. Im thinking about moving to a .44mag levergun with a 16" barrel though. Looks like something a boyscout would use, stops dead with modern ammo.

[Wallaby50 1]

I certainly appreciate all the comments and suggestions. I decided to purchase the Saiga 20. It's on the way......I can't wait to try it out and then start the modifications. I've watched the videos at http://store.carolin...vlet/StoreFront moving the trigger forward when adding the pistol grip stock. That looks like a fun project. I also want to add a barrel heat shield as shown on one of the videos but this procedure was done on a saiga 12. The video showed the Heat shield simply being screwed on the barrel threads. I don't know if they offer a barrel heat shield for the saiga 20. Threading the saiga will not be a problem. I guess I will be calling them to find out more of what is offered.

As mentioned above my wife will be shooting the saiga 20. She has a Remington 870 youth 20 gauge, no problem shooting light loads. The only time she has shot a hot load is when turkey hunting. She is so excited when shooting a turkey, the extra punch doesn't phase her.....lol

My decision between the .410 or the 20 was mainly based on accessories, price of bulk ammo and most importantly a good HD shooter. I purchased the used saiga 20 for $475.00. I think I did okay.

Again, thanks everyone for replying.

[Dad2142Dad 6,559]

Just call Greg at CSS. He rocks

[supertex 242]

the 30 round drum makes the .410 look interesting, if you can afford the ammo

[Wallaby50 1]

Just call Greg at CSS. He rocks

I will. Thank you.

[liberty -r- death 1,445]

Just call Greg at CSS. He rocks

I will. Thank you.

 

TAKE IT TO THE RANGE AND TEST IT BEFORE DOING ANY MODS. You won't get any warranty help if it has issues that you don't know about until you modify it. Many guys have made that mistake on many calibers at thia forum.

[Syndicate 812]

want to know why Greg is the man at CSS?

 

I emailed him about my part, never got a tracking #, he said that's weird it should have shown up, if it's not there, I will just send another.

 

I have no doubt in my mind he would do that.

 

Stand up guy! Makes doing biz really easy.

[Wallaby50 1]

Just call Greg at CSS. He rocks

I will. Thank you.

 

TAKE IT TO THE RANGE AND TEST IT BEFORE DOING ANY MODS. You won't get any warranty help if it has issues that you don't know about until you modify it. Many guys have made that mistake on many calibers at thia forum.

I agree, excellent advice!

The saiga 20 is used but I had planned on shooting it first before I begin with the mods. I want it running good before I gut it.

[{ROS}_me 32]

Just call Greg at CSS. He rocks

 

As these guys say.....I had some problems w/ my local post office .......Greg fixed , I got parts