Shells For Cheap - Reloading

[Squishy 1,149]

Watching "Supernatural"...the boys are hold up in an iron clad safe room in Bobby's house with Demons outside...so they make some shells with rock salt, standard anti-demon round....

 

 

 

Too bad the technology of their time only allows for shooting two at a time or, the pump thing...

[RED333 1,025]

Stack washers is my standard anti-demon round.

[PapaZorro 401]

Foster slug as Lee 1 OZ (fold crimp) and Lyman 475 Grain (roll crimp) desigend for hunting with acceptable accuracy up to 50 yards and Lyman Sabot Slug 525 Gr (fold crimp) is up to 100 yards.

 

For 50 yards Russain guys also use 690 Dia Round Ball Mold from Lee (cheaper) or Lyman (better quality of the mold), round slug is pleased Ito the wad, as Lee 1 OZ, and use fold crimp.

 

Have anybody try to reload 69 Cal Musket Mine Ball from Lyman #68569 (0.685 Dia, 730 Gr) to 12 Ga Shot Shells?

[Squishy 1,149]

The Lyman Sabot Slug (525 Gr) is .680 max diameter and the 69 Caliber Minie Ball is .685, .005 bigger which begs the question how do you know what will and what won't fit or work with a 12 gauge shell? Is the maximum diameter known? Does it get to the point where the hull and wad thickness matters? I assume you'd have to go to the Lyman manual for a recipe, the 69 Cal weighs 1.67 oz...quite a hunk of lead.

 

Oh, and I don't want to start a new thread for this but I need a set of punches for knocking a pin out of the slide on my P220...any recommendations on a good set that won't get FUBAR the first time you tap them with a hammer?

[gunfun 3,931]

Do a search on how to "slug your barrel" There are some standard numbers you can work from, but I don't know them off hand.

 

Just make sure that the thickness of your shot+the added thickness of the shotcup is less than the tightest point in your gun. For the S12, I've been told that .690 roundball is OK if it is above the petals of the shotcup. The recipe I was given has cut down petals. I checked with a bunch of wads and calipers, and each that I tried would have been too wide without cutting down the petals.

Rifled Foster slugs and the "lyman sabot" are desiged to crush through constrictions up to full choke safely. most foster designs flare out under pressure at the back to stabilize. It has been theorized in castboolits that the key on lee slugs prevents this and therefore costs accuacy. I don't have a way to verify.

[Squishy 1,149]

I've been looking at 10,000 FPS vid cameras to answer some of these questions but they cost more than my house so some things will remain open for speculation. Hmmm, slugging my barrel requires a kit.

[PapaZorro 401]

I found here http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-107180.html the folowing:

 

blaster

02-16-2011, 05:41 PM

Inside the wad slugs are usually .680-690". Full bore slugs are generally .735+-"

 

So 69 bullet can fit as well as round ball .690 Dia depend of wad? In Russian market we have wads made by GlavPatron where 0,69 Dia round ball fits, I think it's possible to find similar wads in US.

 

And here http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?p=999346 very interesting thread about usind different caliber slugs on 12 Ga.

[Squishy 1,149]

PZ, thanks for the input. I've been reading these threads and one interesting point is how various wads hold up to the pressures involved which in turn affects how the slug travels or, how accurate it is. So initially what I'm taking from this is that if a "general" purpose wad is used, one that works for shot as well, might have an influence worth noting. This supports what Rogers says in post #56.

 

So I guess there is no such thing as a wad specifically designed for slugs. You just look for the one/s that appear to have the most stiff column under the cup? I ask because I did some research and came up with nothing, not even anecdotal info from a web board.

[rs51085 136]

Squishy I am with you. I couldn't find any wads that were specifically made for slugs like the lee slugs. You would think due to the popularity of these things someone would come out with some wads made just for the lee slugs. They could shorten the pedals, make the column solid and stiff and make it the perfect height so a shot card wasn't needed. Maybe some one should contact clay busters and see what they say?

Edited November 17, 2012 by rogers

[Squishy 1,149]

After thinking about this at length (such as my thoughts about a subject I'm relatively clueless about are) and it would seem that while 9, 27 or however many shot are different in some respects than a single projectile, it would seem it would still be necessary for the trajectory in the direction of the target not to be skewed no matter which you are talking about. And does the column under the cup know if the payload is shot or slug given identical or very close weights? So why would there really need to be a wad designed for slugs other than "fit" issues?

[rs51085 136]

Fit was the main reason I mentioned it. Then there is the cost of adding shot cards or buffer to the shells when you use a regular wad. Also who knows it may help with accuracy. I was mostly just spitballing ideas. Doesn't matter much though since I doubt any company will ever do it.

[RED333 1,025]

My $0.02, load um up as is in the wad you want, I use cheap wads, no shot card.

I get good groups at 100 yrds, paper plate size anyway.

If I need any better groups I will buy factory loaded slugs.

I reload for something to shoot, I try for the best I can do,

but not gona waste lead, powder, wads or primers trying to figure

out what is best for my shotgun, the powder, slug or wad I am using.

Guys have fun, try not to worry what has the best groups.

[Squishy 1,149]

I understand what you're saying Red. There's not much point to spending too much time analyzing things down to the most minute detail and often it just ends up being a guess as to what is the best way to go.

 

But for me at least it's best to make as much of an educated guess as possible all things being equal. Much of what I post is just thinking out loud to see if what I'm thinking makes sense to anyone else. And thanks to you, Rogers, GunFun and others I've avoided some missteps. I guess I've had situations in the past where I made choices without paying enough attention or thinking them through and ended up wasting time, money or both.

 

Plus I learn a lot from these conversations.

[PapaZorro 401]

Squishy I am with you. I couldn't find any wads that were specifically made for slugs like the lee slugs. You would think due to the popularity of these things someone would come out with some wads made just for the lee slugs. They could shorten the pedals, make the column solid and stiff and make it the perfect height so a shot card wasn't needed. Maybe some one should contact clay busters and see what they say?

I didn't find full data for Lee slugs also (shotshel case/powder/charge/primer/wad/velocity/pressure) similar to Lyman Sabot Slug/Lyman Foster that I got in 5th Edition Lyman Shotshell Reloading Handbook .

[PapaZorro 401]

Some pics of shotshells reloaded by 0,69 Dia Round Ball Slug

 

Pic of self-made shotshell with roll crimp

 

 

 

In the thread about roll crimping, I have a picture of a .690 RB loaded into a new Fiocchi hull and roll crimped. The wad is from BPI, one of their Light Brush Wads and two of their BPGS gas seals.

The shell was new and primed with a Fiocchi 616 primer. For reloads, I use Fed. 209A or Win. 209. I do not have the BPI load manual by me right now but I remember using SR7625 for the propellant. That would be in the 26-27 grain area. I have also used 18.5 grains of Red Dot.

 

Pic of factory loaded shotshell with two 0,69 slugs (or 2 very heavy buckshot )

 

 

RSS-12 Rigid Structure Sabot 12ga (50/bag)

The RSS-12 utilizes .50 caliber pistol bullets. The RSS-12 is our second phase in a long-term component development program. Sabots are highly dependent upon the bore and barrel environment of each individual shotgun barrel. As a result, lightweight sabots can be exquisitely accurate out of some barrels, but lacking in others.

 

Edited November 18, 2012 by PapaZorro

[Squishy 1,149]

PZ, thanks for the links. I read the threads and then wandered around a bit and that seems like a good forum. I've done the same at Shotgun World and frankly in spite of their touting themselves as the "friendliest shooting forum on the net", I don't get that vibe there. But....one can always lurk, read and learn.

[Groovy Mike 36]

Stack washers is my standard anti-demon round.

 

Stacked silver dimes is my standard anti-demon and werewolf stopping round.

 

Edited November 19, 2012 by Groovy Mike

[Squishy 1,149]

This stuff works on "creatures" that are merely infected 100% physical entities like Lycans, Vampires, the various forms of the Undead (those which are not really back from the dead, just merely reanimated). But with something that is a spirit which can take corporeal form like a Demon, it won't work. Salt generally will ward them off but not do any permanent harm or kill them. Often it is words, phrases or incantations which will displace them or banish them altogether so that they can no longer take physical form. But there are as many remedies as there are different entities.

 

This is just my experience though and I'm sure there are many variations.

 

Anyone have any experience with Hodgdon "Clays" (not International Clays or Universal Clays) powder? I have a guy who wants to sell me some.

[RED333 1,025]

The Hodgdon site does not list a ny reload data for buck or slug for that powder.

[Squishy 1,149]

The Hodgdon site does not list a ny reload data for buck or slug for that powder.

 

Yeah, I selected "lead shot" and saw a bunch, wrong move...hmmm, guess I'll pass on it then.

[RED333 1,025]

Yep it is made for clay shooters, little recoil for all day shooting.

[Squishy 1,149]

Yep it is made for clay shooters, little recoil for all day shooting.

 

I did see some (7) 45 ACP recipes for it though...but I've told the guy I'll pass....but I will take the 4K Fed 209A primers he has though.... ;o)

[Squishy 1,149]

Here's a question. Ok, I made the mistake of selecting lead shot when looking for a recipe for the Clays powder above...one thing does not equal the other in this case. So if I'm looking at a recipe and I see a "shot weight" of 1 oz, can I assume or not this could be a 1 oz slug, 1 oz of buckshot etc.? I'm seeing the recipes are specified according to weight like on the Alliant site here with no other specification i.e. slug, buckshot.

[msrdiver 42]

Squishy,

 

Stay away from Clays powder unless you are breaking clays all day long and can't readily clean your gun. Or, because you have a $10k trap gun and don't want her to get dirty in front of the other shooters at the club. Clays is very clean burning which is great for shooting 200 shells in a day and you can't or don't want to clean your gun. Clays is both fast and clean burning thus making it popular for skeet shooting.

 

I gave away 4 lbs ($$) of Clays because it is terrible for moving heavier loads of buckshot.

 

I suggest starting with WSF powder. Winchester Super Field is good for speed, pressure, and fairly clean burn. It can be used for shot, buckshot, and slugs. WSF is pretty common to find. As for primers, what is on sale at the time of purchase? For slugs I recommend the straight hulls and Federal S3/S4 wads.

 

Work up a 1oz slug load based on a 1 to 1 1/8 ounce shot load. Send 5 shells off for testing ($5 each shell tested) plus UPS shipping fees. Then share the data with the rest of us.

 

Squishy, you have asked many a good questions. Now it is time to get off the fence and start reloading. Off the fence and start reloading. Off the fence and start reloading. Off the fence and start reloading.

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Subliminal message

[Squishy 1,149]

Just got some wads today via UPS and picked up some hulls at the indoor range Saturday so now I have everything I need. I already have some Green Dot powder as per recommendations.

 

And, I've been told it's prudent to follow recipes closely, not everyone agrees though.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Squishy

[gunfun 3,931]

Better not start reloading until everyone on the internets agree. Can't be too safe.

[msrdiver 42]

Squishy,

 

Slugs and buckshot generally produce less pressure than shot. Shot takes up more space in the wad and presses against the sides of the wad. Also upon firing, the shot settles back in the wad and soft shot can deform due to the heat and pressure. The shot settling back against the wad in turn causes a higher pressure (psi). Think of the lead pressing outward making a better seal.

 

Compare the ballistics of my 12 pellet (1 oz) buckshot load (3 shells averaged) to this published 1 1/8oz shot load. Note differences in grains of powder and PSI produced.

 

Hodgdon website: Choose Remington 2 3/4" STS hull and lead shot

lead shot, 12gauge, 1 1/8 oz, WSF powder, Win209 primer, WAA12, 27 grains yields: 9700psi and 1310fps.

 

My load data with a primer substitution (because I just had to know and it was only $15 more to find out).

#1 Buck, 12gauge, 1 ounce, WSF powder, Win209 primer, WAA12, 28.45 grains yields: 6833psi and 1380fps

#1 Buck, 12gauge, 1 ounce, WSF powder, Rem209P primer, WAA12, 28.45 grains yields: 7600psi and 1414fps

 

YMMV

 

 

Oh! My worn in and properly gassed gun (Cadiz reworked the gas ports)doesn't reliably cycle until about 5500 psi.

Edited November 23, 2012 by msrdiver

[Squishy 1,149]

So the conclusions I draw from this are that if you are using buckshot or a slug in any given recipe the pressure will be lower.

 

And all things being equal substitution of a "hotter" primer will result in higher pressure and FPS. I notice you upped the powder by 1.45 grains over the Hodgdon recipe.

 

Even though the rounds made using your load data have significantly lower pressure they travel at more FPS. This is due to the difference between birdshot and buckshot once airborne I'm guessing?

 

How does the Rem209P primer compare to the Federal 209A?

[msrdiver 42]

Ah, good questions and you made an observations that deserve attention.

 

Keeping components the same, larger buck shot and slugs will produce a lower pressure.

 

Primers from hot to cold: Federal 209A are hotter than Winchester 209 primers. Win 209 primers are hotter than Remington 209P primers.

 

Hotter primers will not always result in higher pressures. Hull interior shape and powder burn rate and lead mass in the wad makes for serious variability. A slow powder like Longshot or Blue Dot may produce more pressure with a cooler primer. This is part of the fun of reading Lyman's manual and building up a load and testing that load.

 

Speaking of that Tome of Knowledge, Look at the 1oz and target 1 1/8oz recipes for the faster powders, like e3, using STS and AA hulls. Most of the faster powders are not using hotter Federal primers but Remington and Winchester primers. Conversely, for the Fiocchi and Federal straight wall hulls, you'll see more recipes using Federal and Winchester primers. Now look at the primers used in the magnum loads for all 3 hulls. Yep, more variability than you can shake a stick at.

 

Hull design factoring in pressure is shown below; powder and all other components are the same. Note the Rem209P primer produced more pressure in the STS hull. Conversely, the Win 209 primer produced more pressure in the black/grey AA hull.

 

Reexamine the STS hull load previously mentioned. Now compare that to the same components I loaded into Black/Gray Winchester AA hulls:

 

STS Hull

My load data with a primer substitution (because I just had to know and it was only $15 more to find out).

#1 Buck, 12gauge, 1 ounce, WSF powder, Win209 primer, WAA12, 28.45 grains yields: 6833psi and 1380fps

#1 Buck, 12gauge, 1 ounce, WSF powder, Rem209P primer, WAA12, 28.45 grains yields: 7600psi and 1414fps

 

Black/grey AA Hull

My load data with a primer substitution (because I just had to know and it was only $15 more to find out).

#1 Buck, 12gauge, 1 ounce, WSF powder, Win209 primer, WAA12, 28.45 grains yields: 7000psi and 1380fps

#1 Buck, 12gauge, 1 ounce, WSF powder, Rem209P primer, WAA12, 28.45 grains yields: 5933psi and 1352fps

 

 

I used Remington Field Grade #1 Buckshot. The 12 pellets weigh 426 grains, so just 10 grains below a true ounce.

Okay, so now someone owes me $60 in testing fees and almost $15 UPS shipping fees for the recipe data.

 

Of course, use at own risk.

[gunfun 3,931]

Every single rule has to have an asterisk on it, of course. You can see trends in the data, but there is always a combination that goes against the flow.

 

I've been using your data, and will add this to the table if it isn't there already. I'm most of the way through my sack of buckshot now, and about a third through the stack of lee slugs I got. (Salt and I are pooling to get casting equipment & supplies. His work gives him cabelas credit when he gets caught doing his job. Now to decide whether I should get the cheap lee molds or the lyman Sabot style. comments by PM welcome)