Sdustin 578 Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 What's I need sone infor from the experts. I want to thread my barrel but I need it good enough for a silencer. I plan to buy a YHM phantom oneday, I don't really want to remove the barrel, is there a way to thread it without removal? Also I would remove it if need be but all the info I see is how to press it out or a parts kit. I haven't seen a way to remove a barrel from a complete rifle. I may end up just doing it now for a break. Then instead of buying the YHM fit it building a reflex type silencer, I would weld on HK sights and mount a press fit collar right against the gas block and the silencer would have void into the can that the barrel would go all the way into the silencer. The blast baffle would but up right against the muzzle break. Anyway is there a way to thread it without removal. And here's a pic. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 If you're going to use a can, you want to remove the barrel to have it threaded. If it's not turned on centers, how can you ensure that the threads are concentric, not to the outside of the barrel, but to the bore itself? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
headshot 52 Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Cadiz can do concentric threading, IIRC Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RED333 1,025 Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Get the TAT and a die, that is what I did. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted March 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Cadiz I'll check them out. But I hate to pay for something I can get done my self. I've got access to a expert machinist and full shop. He is an experinced gun guy but not with AKs. I've got lots of know how an I'm sure I can do it I'm just trying to get some pointers so I'm nit totally in the dark. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 If you're going to use a can, you want to remove the barrel to have it threaded. If it's not turned on centers, how can you ensure that the threads are concentric, not to the outside of the barrel, but to the bore itself? It can be done without removing the barrel, but special tooling is required. A good smith can do it..if he has the tools. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted March 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 What kind of tooling? I've heard of people actually threading on a CNC MILL. If that's possible then I could get him to do it that way. Let say if you can thread on a mill with accuracy to use a silencer then I'll talk to him about doing it that way. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted March 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Also what the best thread patterem to mount an ak74 break. The only ones I'm finding online are 14lh. Id really rather have an American thread pattern that I could get the silencer mounts in. Would I have to go with an adapter to run an ak74 style brake? Also are there any front sight posts that I could mod to mount on the s308 barrel. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 (edited) I did mine on a lathe with a two 4 jaw chucks chucked togehter, then centered using dial indicators to find the center of the bore, combined with a tail stock and steady rest. I had to remove the FSB, GB, and RSB to do it.. but it worked. It was a PAIN IN THE ASS! I threaed mine at 5/8x 28TPI. I turned the barrel down and moved the FSB back and reppined it. Although hindsight has made it obvious that driling out the original FSB to 11/16" would have been a much better choice as it woud leave me the option of a FSB/GB combo later if I desired, and not have an extra step in the barrel. Edited March 2, 2013 by poolingmyignorance Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted March 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 I'm guessing that's obviously you had to pull the barrel? I'm not crazy about removing the barrel and I would rather never use a silencer than remover everything on the barrel. Hell at that point I might as well buy a match grade blank and make it an 18" gun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
netpackrat 566 Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 My gunsmith friend recently threaded my S.308 9/16-24 without removing the barrel, with the specific objective of ending up with suppressor quality threading. He'd done it before and I believe he has a fixture for his lathe that allows this. I have the ability to remove and install barrels, but since I could get it done without, that seemed to be the way to go. He did my friend's VEPR at the same time, and we had to pull the barrel from that one since the slant cut receiver wouldn't work with his fixture. Besides, removing the barrel is fairly simple most of the time. It's getting it back in that is a bitch. On the VEPR I ended up going back and forth a bunch of times, overshooting by a little each time, before I got the hole for the barrel pin lined up correctly. The AK-Builder press kit is the tool to have for this, along with a hydraulic press, of course. Since the S.308 trunnion is different from a regular AKM, a longer screw needs to be made for one of the supports in the kit (simple). Even though I didn't pull the barrel on my .308 I still used the base from the press kit when pressing the FSB back on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted March 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Is this fixture something that any machinist would have or is it a special custom made piece of tooling? Also do you have any pics? Where are you located would your gunsmith take work in does he have an FFL? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
termite 463 Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 I threaded my x39 and only thing I removed was the furniture. It was a bitch, but I got it done. Tried it with a friends can and all is good. I went 5/8x24 on mine, and added a larger shoulder for the can to seat against. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 (edited) I'm guessing that's obviously you had to pull the barrel? I'm not crazy about removing the barrel and I would rather never use a silencer than remover everything on the barrel. Hell at that point I might as well buy a match grade blank and make it an 18" gun.I didn't remove the barrel...my lathe is large. I used the two chucks combined to extend the diamter of the spindle to allow the reciver to clear. I as well as the FSB, GB, and RSB I had to remove the mag catch too. Edited March 2, 2013 by poolingmyignorance Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted March 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Ok guys I'll be going to talk to him next week we will see what he can work up if it's possible to thread without removal with the tooling he has we will get it done. Ok guys I'll be going to talk to him next week we will see what he can work up if it's possible to thread without removal with the tooling he has we will get it done. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
netpackrat 566 Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Is this fixture something that any machinist would have or is it a special custom made piece of tooling? Also do you have any pics? Where are you located would your gunsmith take work in does he have an FFL? I didn't get a look at it. I understood it to be something he made in order to thread another Saiga. Harbor Freight 12 ton press is on sale for $130 right now. AK Builder press kit is $95. Those are what you need to remove and install barrels. If you can knock out the barrel pin with a punch (I like using an air hammer), you can get the barrel out with just the press, but you need the press kit to re-install. Back when kits were cheap, I used to put a sacrificial muzzle device over threads on the muzzle, and beat them in with a big lead hammer. The press kit is much better. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted March 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 I've got access to a hydraulic press I assume that would work to remove the barrel and reinstall. Also would I have to remove the gas block and rear sight base? If it's this much trouble I think I'll just move the front sight back one pin and hand thread and say screw the silencer. Hell I could luck out and it line up?? Also I may just build a silencer on a form 1 and make it myself just for the saiga that way I won't have to worry about te threads. I would weld on some hk sights and weld a threaded collar on the barrel right in front of the gas block to mount a reflex type silencer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Exothermia 1 Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 Having done this myself with a die and TAT from Dinzag, all of the above seems like super overkill. The TAT is a device that goes into the end of the .30 cal bore and is threaded to interface with the die, and the threads the die creates are therefore perfectly concentric with the bore as the TAT prevents them from moving out of the center with the bore, regardless of external barrel abberations. You don't have to remove the barrel, and the threads, if you follow the directions, are perfect. Just a thought. I don't have a suppressor on mine but I'm confident enough in how my threads turned out to put one on it. The threads look completely professional. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted March 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 Are you sure that the TAT would be good enough for a silencer? Like I said this all seems like more work than I wanted to do I think I'll get the tools from mr smitheick at dinzag. I sent him an email and I'm waiting on a replie. I really want an ak74 style brake but I'd like the ability to mount an American silencer mount in a normal thread pattern. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 Take the TAT total clearance of the bore, then take how far it penetrates the bore example: If clearance is .001" per side (of center) and the TAT is say 1" of penetration thats .002" misalignement for every 1" from muzzle you get. So if your suppresor is 8" long thats .016" misalignment. How long is your supressor, and how much bore clearance does it have? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted March 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 I'll be getting the YHM phantom, that's the one that I like. Either that one or the AAC 7.62sdn6. I like the mount of the YHM better do I'm not sure about the bore clearance though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 Those are just examples of how to figure it out. I don't have a TAT here to measure, so I just wrote up some example numbers. You'll have to aquire the numbers and do the math yourself. But it's really simple. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
netpackrat 566 Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 (edited) I've got access to a hydraulic press I assume that would work to remove the barrel and reinstall. Also would I have to remove the gas block and rear sight base? If it's this much trouble I think I'll just move the front sight back one pin and hand thread and say screw the silencer. Hell I could luck out and it line up?? Also I may just build a silencer on a form 1 and make it myself just for the saiga that way I won't have to worry about te threads. I would weld on some hk sights and weld a threaded collar on the barrel right in front of the gas block to mount a reflex type silencer. There is no reason to remove the gas block or rear sight block. One nice thing about getting the barrel lathe threaded, is that the machinist can just move the shoulder for the FSB back on the barrel, so there is no reason to counterbore the FSB at that point like if you used a die and TAT. So it saves you from sending your irreplaceable FSB off to Dinzag or buying the tooling for that. It's possible that using the TAT/die method could wind up accurate enough for a suppressor, but it would be luck. Here's the deal, you spend what, a grand or so on a .308 rifle suppressor plus $200 to the ATF and then wait 6 or more months for it. And you are going to bet your expensive suppressor on using cheap tooling, and complain that removing the barrel and getting it lathe threaded is too expensive or complicated??? That doesn't make any sense at all. Especially if you already have access to a suitable press. Even if you have to buy one, they are still useful for a lot of other things. I built mine nearly 15 years ago for automotive work, plus forming metal with a press brake, and never dreamed I would be building rifles with it at the time. Even if you never use the AK builder set again you can probably get most of your money back out of it by selling it. Another advantage of getting it lathe turned, is your machinist can cut it to a slightly smaller thread size for fuller thread engagement, which gives maximum strength for hanging a can off it. This is why my barrel ended up at 9/16-24 instead of the more usual 5/8-24, because while the bigger size is easier to thread with a die, you're not going to get fully formed threads from it. The 9/16 thread size is a little less common... What I found this meant, is that it was a little more difficult to find a cheap flash hider for it, but top quality units are plenty available in this size. I ended up going with the YHM Phantom with the QD suppressor mount built in. I found it at a place called "Joe Bob Outfitters" where it was marked down significantly from the usual price. Service and shipping were outstanding. I haven't put my rifle back together yet, but here is a picture of my buddy's VEPR with the same flash hider. This is the one that we removed the barrel from, and reinstalled after it was threaded. The RSB was removed and the shoulder for it moved back slightly, so a new pin hole had to be drilled also. Edited March 3, 2013 by Netpackrat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted March 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 I've got other rifles that I would be more out to use the phantom on. Netpacker how does it sound in that short of a barrel in .308? Are you happy with the YHM can. Does it keep zero good? What I mean is it repeatable each time to remove and attach? I'll be using it on an ar15 in .300 blackout, an ar15 midlength 16" barrel .223 and a precision .308 or .300 win mag bolt rifle. Do you know what length barrel would be required to run it on a .300 win mag? I'm glad you chimed in since your using one of the silencers I am thinking about. Also do you have the SS or Ti version? Also to remove the barrel I think I can do it. I would turn down a brass rod to fit an airhammer. Use that to pound out the barrel pin. Then I'd make a tool to go through the mag well and push out the barrel? What part of the gun should I push against to push the barrel out? Make a tool to push against the front turinion? Also to reinstall would I get a piece of wood against the muzzle and use a piece of rod steel square of course to brace through the magwell and push the barrel from the muzzle? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
netpackrat 566 Posted March 4, 2013 Report Share Posted March 4, 2013 I haven't fired the .308 with it yet, and I don't have a can. The cheapest 9/16-24 flash hider I could find that was actually in stock was over $40, and I found the YHM flash hider with the can mount for about $62. So, right now it is just for looks. I have some other work to do to the .308 before I can take it to the range. Here is the tool for using an air hammer for removing a barrel pin. I clamp the receiver securely in a vise with smooth jaws, padded with leather. My air hammer is also an expensive aircraft rivet gun with a sensitive trigger and calibrated blows, so be careful using the hardware store variety. Those will still do the job, however. The AK builder set also has a pin pressing jig that works with your press, and works very well. For removing the barrel with a press once the pin is out, you need a couple of press blocks that you can brace the trunnion against. I use a cut-off slice of a brass rod to protect the breech face of the barrel, and on top of that a socket that will fit through the trunnion, with a 3/8 drive long extension up to the press ram. It will be at a slight angle, so be careful. Pressing it back in is much trickier. You do not want to put force on the sheet metal receiver under any circumstance because it is easily fucked up, so the best way is through the magwell as you said. The Ak-builder press jig kit includes a special support that is slightly adjustable for different trunnions. I had to make a longer screw for it to use with the .308. The best thing to protect the muzzle end while pressing back in is to use a thread and crown protector. You could make one from a sacrificial muzzle device, cut just long enough to protect the crown when screwed on. My gunsmith had made a sort of thread protector that he'd used while turning the barrels, which he gave me so I used that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted March 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2013 Ok. I see I'll be removing the barrel. I think I'll be able to get it all done with existing tools my uncle has. What about the threaded rod meathod of reinstalling the barrel are you familiar with that? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
netpackrat 566 Posted March 4, 2013 Report Share Posted March 4, 2013 I am familiar with the threaded rod method, and I am not exactly a fan. It strikes me as being a good way to fuck up your bore. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted March 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 Yea thy always seemed funny to me to use threaded rod through the bore. I think I'll just try pressing it back in. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted March 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 I'm going to go talk to by uncle today. Hopefully I'll have it threaded in a week or so. He and I are always so busy it's hard to get together. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted April 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2013 well i got the tools and moved my sight back and was going to use a TAT and a 5/8x24 die and thread it by hand, well turns out that my barrel is too big for 5/8x24 without turning it down i was at my wife's uncle machine shop he told me he could put it in his lathe between centers and turn it down and thread it all on his lathe without removing the barrel and without removing the front sight i left it so i may not be able to get a pic he said he was going to either do it tonight or tomorrow morning i'm going to be calling him in the morning and if he hasn't done it yet ill make sure i get a pic. i know he has a very large lathe set up for CNC and its got a six jaw chuck every time I've been to his shop Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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