LibertybyAK 0 Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 Hi all, Thanks in advance for any help you can give me. I bought a used Saiga .410 at a pawn shop for $175.00 and thought it was a great deal until I bought some 3 inch magnum shotshells and found it would not cycle because it would barely open the bolt. It is the newer model with an adjustable gas regulator and bolt hold open device so I started on "1" since my magazine said .410x76mm. It looked like hardly any gas was pushing the bolt carrier so I reset the regulator on "2" but this made no difference and it acted just like it did on setting "1". I then uncrewed the gas regulator plug to see if the gas system needed cleaning and the plug was beveled just as it should be and there was a second loose floating plug with a groove milled around the center which I took out also to reveal something which I had never seen in an AK gas tube before, there appeared to be a milled in gas piston guide which was of a much smaller diameter than the gas tube opening about 2 & 1/2 inches from the threaded end. This milled in recess stopped the free floating plug from acting on the piston for more than an inch or less. I thought this would keep the piston from cycling completely so I was stumped. I didn't receive any paperwork with the gun since it was used so I'm not sure if it has all its parts or if they were installed correctly. I cleaned it up & put it all back together as best as I could guess but it still wouldn't cycle. The only thing I noticed that was strange to me is that it looked like someone had screwed the piston out of the bolt carrier and reset it leaving more threads exposed than I had ever seen on any other AK piston. This would allow more movement directly on the piston head from the free floating block but I'm not sure this is a good thing. I could manually cycle the shells after each shot and it fired fine so as far as I can tell the problem is with the gas system. Any suggestions? Does my parts description match what should be in the gas tube? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 I'd check to see if the gas plug is in all the way, then backed out to the proper setting. (2 since your having problems) Ocassionally mine would catch an empty in the action, but never with 3"ers on #2... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 Yes... when you unscrew the regulator selector plug ( the one with the bevel) Immediately under that should be a gas piston. This is the TRUE gas piston. It is a cylinder about an inch long and an inch in diameter. that will ONLY MOVE in the cylinder about an inch front to back give or take... Behind that, is the bolt carrier extension. That is the part you mentioned has the threads, and it threaded out further than any AK you have seen. Mine is kinda like that too... I would say its most likely fine. Check the gas ports themselves... with some fine wire, to see if they are open. ( Between the barrel and the gas piston) Also... you need to remember... thread the regulator ALL THE WAY IN, then back it out to the nearest "click" on the selection ( one or two) that you wish. IF you can cycle the action by hand, you DO indeed have a gas problem. BUT... from the sounds of things, everything you have in there is correct, and should work fine. Make sure EVERYTHING is clean, and oiled... and that there is no gunk on the rails that the bolt carrier rides on. make sure the recoil spring is clean and oiled, and that the cylinder inside the bolt carrier that the spring rides inside is also clean. As long as the gas ports to the gas piston are open, you SHOULD have no problem with it cycling. Keep us posted... and if you think of anything else, please mention it... good luck... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LibertybyAK 0 Posted December 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 I'd check to see if the gas plug is in all the way, then backed out to the proper setting. (2 since your having problems) Ocassionally mine would catch an empty in the action, but never with 3"ers on #2... Thanks Dinzag, Did my description fit what you have seen in your own .410? I am more & more convinced that someone screwed the piston out too far and that it should not make any direct contact with the free floating plug. I did try loosening & tightening the numbered plug but found no difference in performance and there didn't appear to be any obstructions to tightening it against the face of the gas tube Yes... when you unscrew the regulator selector plug ( the one with the bevel) Immediately under that should be a gas piston. This is the TRUE gas piston. It is a cylinder about an inch long and an inch in diameter. that will ONLY MOVE in the cylinder about an inch front to back give or take... Behind that, is the bolt carrier extension. That is the part you mentioned has the threads, and it threaded out further than any AK you have seen. Mine is kinda like that too... I would say its most likely fine. Check the gas ports themselves... with some fine wire, to see if they are open. ( Between the barrel and the gas piston) Also... you need to remember... thread the regulator ALL THE WAY IN, then back it out to the nearest "click" on the selection ( one or two) that you wish. IF you can cycle the action by hand, you DO indeed have a gas problem. BUT... from the sounds of things, everything you have in there is correct, and should work fine. Make sure EVERYTHING is clean, and oiled... and that there is no gunk on the rails that the bolt carrier rides on. make sure the recoil spring is clean and oiled, and that the cylinder inside the bolt carrier that the spring rides inside is also clean. As long as the gas ports to the gas piston are open, you SHOULD have no problem with it cycling. Keep us posted... and if you think of anything else, please mention it... good luck... Thanks to you as well IndiArms, I have not stuck a wire into the gas port yet and I really think I should as it could be gunked up. My CLP seems to flow back into the barrel through this port however. Does your bolt carrier piston actually touch the free floating plug? If I push on my inner plug it will push the bolt carrier open about a 1/2 inch. Is this normal? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 I will check that... but alas, I cannot do it now, as I need to head to work... If NO ONE else gets to answering this before I get home tonight, at 11, I will strip mine, and test it as you mention, to see if mine pushes directly on the bolt carrier. Also, Cobra may have some insight to this as well... I am sure he will voice his 2 cents here shortly... We will get ya going, no worries!!! patience, young Saiga-wan... LOL Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LibertybyAK 0 Posted December 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 I will check that... but alas, I cannot do it now, as I need to head to work... If NO ONE else gets to answering this before I get home tonight, at 11, I will strip mine, and test it as you mention, to see if mine pushes directly on the bolt carrier. Also, Cobra may have some insight to this as well... I am sure he will voice his 2 cents here shortly... We will get ya going, no worries!!! patience, young Saiga-wan... LOL Thanks again IndiArms, By the way who is that beautiful girl with the great hooters? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 (edited) The part that would be the gas piston on regular AK's, is where the factory adjusts the Saiga shotguns for proper cycling. This has a screw slot on the rear of the threaded part. It should also be "permanently" fixed where the factory put it by having 2 dimples pressed into the sides of the boltcarrier to lock the threads. With the blind plug removed (the threaded part with 1 2 stamped on it) , and the piston in the bore behind it-- you should be able to push on the piston and move the boltcarrier a SHORT distance. Remember that kinetic energy will keep it moving. It only needs to have contact for a short distance. I would measure for you, but the only S .410 I have is the wife's and it is the original style, and the piston is different. Try using pipe cleaners and brake cleaner or spray bore cleaner to scean the gas ports. You most likely have 3 holes for gas ports in the gasblock .: . P.S. Make shure the gasports were drilled-for areas like kommiefornia where semi-auto AK actions are illegal, they are sold with the holes NOT DRILLED, to make the action "bolt" each shot requires cycling the bolt. G O B Edited December 2, 2005 by G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 Wow GOB I never heard that before. Those kommie bastages! My 410 is like GOB's. It's the old model and has a different gas system. Sounds like yours is like that on the S-12 and S-20 with the gas piston or "tappet" as I've heard it referred to. This piston takes the actual force of the gas and slides backward and hits the bolt carrier extension (gas piston on a normal AK) causing it to slam backward and cycle the action. Yes it is supposed to hit there and no your "gas piston" is not likely unscrewed too far. How many threads are showing? On all my Saiga shotguns except the 410 you can take the actual piston out and see the circular mark left on the backside from making contact with the carrier extension. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LibertybyAK 0 Posted December 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 --> QUOTE(G O B @ Dec 1 2005, 07:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The part that would be the gas piston on regular AK's, is where the factory adjusts the Saiga shotguns for proper cycling. This has a screw slot on the rear of the threaded part. It should also be "permanently" fixed where the factory put it by having 2 dimples pressed into the sides of the boltcarrier to lock the threads. With the blind plug removed (the threaded part with 1 2 stamped on it) , and the piston in the bore behind it-- you should be able to push on the piston and move the boltcarrier a SHORT distance. Remember that kinetic energy will keep it moving. It only needs to have contact for a short distance. I would measure for you, but the only S .410 I have is the wife's and it is the original style, and the piston is different. Try using pipe cleaners and brake cleaner or spray bore cleaner to scean the gas ports. You most likely have 3 holes for gas ports in the gasblock .: . P.S. Make shure the gasports were drilled-for areas like kommiefornia where semi-auto AK actions are illegal, they are sold with the holes NOT DRILLED, to make the action "bolt" each shot requires cycling the bolt. G O B Thanks for the response GOB, I need to check my to make sure mine has these marks on my bolt carrier. It is good to hear that the carrier can be directly pushed by what I have been calling a "floating plug"(which is the actual piston) because that is exactly what mine does. I had a chance to stick a wire through the gas port so that I could see it come out in the bore so at least now it really has a port(s) drilled so that is good news too. I'm glad it is not a "Kommiefornia" gun. What a true description of the government in that state. I need to get some pipe cleaners because now it is looking more & more like dirty ports. The hole has ben soaked in CLP so a good reaming with a pipe cleaner should clear it up & then I'll have to get out and test it again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LibertybyAK 0 Posted December 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 Wow GOB I never heard that before. Those kommie bastages! My 410 is like GOB's. It's the old model and has a different gas system. Sounds like yours is like that on the S-12 and S-20 with the gas piston or "tappet" as I've heard it referred to. This piston takes the actual force of the gas and slides backward and hits the bolt carrier extension (gas piston on a normal AK) causing it to slam backward and cycle the action. Yes it is supposed to hit there and no your "gas piston" is not likely unscrewed too far. How many threads are showing? On all my Saiga shotguns except the 410 you can take the actual piston out and see the circular mark left on the backside from making contact with the carrier extension. Thanks Cobra 76 two, I really enjoyed reading your conversion story and your gun came out beautifully! It is sounding more & more like a simple dirty port(s) since all of you describe that the tappet pushes directly onto the bolt carrier extension in your guns which is exactly how mine works. I'll get some pipe cleaners & it is back to the range for more tests. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 By the way who is that beautiful girl with the great hooters? Ummm guys...you neglected the most important question of all... Search the site for Christina...or Miss Saiga...or Mrs. Saiga Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 Ummm guys...you neglected the most important question of all...Search the site for Christina...or Miss Saiga...or Mrs. Saiga NEGATIVE!!! Getting a Saiga functioning is The MOST important question... Finding pics of the hot Saiga Model Christine is only secondary to a functional Saiga... I mean... without your Saiga what else IS THERE??!?!? LOL Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 i would trade one of my Sagas fro an hour with her OK maybe several hrs! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 (edited) Getting a Saiga functioning is The MOST important question... Indy, you're right... LibertybyAK...forgive me...my priorities are screwed up. When you get the S-410 functioning properly... Click on these links... http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=8396 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=8528 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=8345 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=8220 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?s=&sho...indpost&p=68350 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?s=&sho...indpost&p=61380 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?s=&sho...indpost&p=58100 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?s=&sho...indpost&p=58109 edited to add: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?s=&sho...indpost&p=71425 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=8758&hl= Edited December 6, 2005 by dinzag Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LibertybyAK 0 Posted December 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 Getting a Saiga functioning is The MOST important question... Indy, you're right... LibertybyAK...forgive me...my priorities are screwed up. When you get the S-410 functioning properly... Click on these links... http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=8396 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=8528 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=8345 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=8220 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?s=&sho...indpost&p=68350 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?s=&sho...indpost&p=61380 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?s=&sho...indpost&p=58100 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?s=&sho...indpost&p=58109 Thanks again for all the great help and for the great links. WOOO DOOGIES Christina packs a fine pair! If I am ever given the death penelty for owning assault rifles I would like to request being smothered or beaten to death by boobs like that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 Thats why she is the one and only unofficial MISS SAIGA!!!! :up: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
13cent_killer 0 Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 Thats why she is the one and only unofficial MISS SAIGA!!!! :up: Is she Russian??? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 no... just some chicky-babe... www.christinamodel.com Enjoy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 He clicked on the links...musta got his 410 fixed... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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