Mountain Man 20 Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 (edited) Let me start this out by saying, I love the Vepr 12! An amazing product and tons of innovation from Molot but it seems like Stateside because of import restrictions and the relative newness of the product here, that despite some amazing vendors (who have put out some great stuff), that we have been extremely limited on custom parts, services, and access to some really cool Vepr 12 products. Now, I know with firearms as in all businesses products evolve with demand and a increasing client base but I am just trying to get a sense of what that evolution is looking like here in the US compared to Russia. Let me give an example: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/03/12/molot-vepr-12-ipsc-special-edition-shotgun/ I would love to see some of the ISPC parts from their special editions become readily available or manufactured here stateside. Specifically the aluminum magwell, button mag release, ESPECIALLY the rail section instead of the rear sight, and a whole host of other prts I would love to pick up. Also I would love to see more options on the mags. SGM has done fine putting out their mags I have a few but I would love to see more companies try to pull these off. Besides maxrounds, I would love to see some drums: compact 10, regular 20,30 or 50, it would be great to see some innovation. also it would be nice to see these at a competitive price. Now when there is no real competition like there is right now: SGM & Molot they get to set whatever prices they want to see. Now this is in no way a bash and I know both Molot and SGM beed to offset costs for importation and proprietary design but... There is no way in the world we should have to pay 129, 99, or even 79 for Molot 8 rounders no matter how great they are and SGM mags, please 40 is to much. Now I am completely cognizant of WHY they are being sold at this price and even why they NEED to be sold at this price, I am just lamenting the fact that in the early stages of the Vepr 12 US expansion we have not seen more new products and designs. Hats go off especially to Chaos and Bonesteel, TSS, and Mach1 simply great products that are deserving of the price, as well as CSS, Tromix, & Mississippi AA have been good on replicating OEM parts and innovating and offering us a lot of good choices. Here is a list of products and services I would like to see IN-STOCK & SPECIFICALLY ADVERTIZED for the Vepr 12: Magazines- stick ($20-$40) or drum ($100-polymer - $250 aluminum high capacity) at a reasonable price that function consistently. My benchmark for mags are Magpul and X Products Rail Sections- rear sight replacements rail blocks or rail systems like Chaos (the leader); Damage Industries needs to step up. Barrels- this is where we need to see barrels offered at minimum length and reduced length to add permanently attached comps to and stay at minimum length. I would also like to see barrels threaded for rem chokes to use in conjunction with comps. Comps- We need to have an importer to start a supply chain of in stock Rusian made GK-01's with correct slotting up/right (RH shooters) or up/left slotting for (LH Shooters). CSS version is fine but right & left & top slotting does not offer superior compensation for semi auto shotguns. Gas Systems: we need the standard, short, and twister pucks as well as mods to standardize SBS mods for consistent reliability. Springs: Spring & Reliability kits besides JTE I guess I could go on forever but this is the short list. What are your guys thoughts on this? I know I am essentially comparing the avaliability of parts to the AR market, but I guy can wish. Help me out anyone have their ear to the ground on new developments? Thanks!!! Edited June 2, 2013 by Mountain Man Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ec4321 113 Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 (edited) Careful liking the platform but demanding more. Lots of folks don't take to kindly to that around here. That said, I want a cross bolt safety. Aluminium Mag Wells can be had, one of the boutique Russian importers I believe had them at one point btw. Also - 40 round stick and 250 round drums? Really? S-12 doesn't have that, not going to happen for the relatively small Vepr-12 market. I mean, on the other side of the coin, i for one, await your offerings in the v-12 market. Will your 40 round stick mag have a swivel wheel on it for tactical manipulation over varying terrain? Edited June 2, 2013 by ec4321 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mountain Man 20 Posted June 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 (edited) Also I would love to see more options on the mags. SGM has done fine putting out their mags I have a few but I would love to see more companies try to pull these off. Besides maxrounds, I would love to see some drums: compact 10, regular 20,30 or 50, it would be great to see some innovation. also it would be nice to see these at a competitive price. Now when there is no real competition like there is right now: SGM & Molot they get to set whatever prices they want to see. Now this is in no way a bash and I know both Molot and SGM beed to offset costs for importation and proprietary design but... There is no way in the world we should have to pay 129, 99, or even 79 for Molot 8 rounders no matter how great they are and SGM mags, please 40 is to much. Now I am completely cognizant of WHY they are being sold at this price and even why they NEED to be sold at this price, I am just lamenting the fact that in the early stages of the Vepr 12 US expansion we have not seen more new products and designs. I thought I was clear on the size of the mags a paragraph before, sorry if that came across wrong I meant stick mags for around $20-$40 or drums from $100-$250. Although it would be fun to see theat 40rd stick mag with a wheel And as a consumer demanding more from manufactures is what capitalism has been built on it, in fact it is how companies thrive and consumers find satisfaction with their products.. It is not a slight to any vendor on the forum just a list of what I would like to see. Also I do not think I need to guard my words to other Vepr 12 owners, I didn't put anyone down just stating what the market is lacking. Any company that puts out a good product wouldn't be offended by my assessment, since I already prefaced my statement with my understanding the process of product development and the overall newness of he Vepr 12. I will go back and edit the $ section for the mags. Feel free to PM me with any other considerations. Thanks! Edited June 3, 2013 by Mountain Man Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted June 3, 2013 Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 I think the main thing you will see is that there isn't a lot of room for improvement in the V12 short of scrapping the reciever for a lighter more compact format. It is bascally a factory build implementing many of the nicer ideas primarily developed in the American aftermarket/ competition scene. A better safety, and a better mag release could be added. I for one would like to see the long stroke recoil system make it over here... But most of the key parts are already there. You can spend money to make your gun different by changing other parts, but for the most part, it won't be radically better. Several parts you ask for would be down grades or "sidegrades" if that is a word. Most of the mods I have seen were just truing up existing parts such as crooked pic rails. The real upgrade would be to shave off weight and bulk. Someone actually modded a twister puc in Russia for a V12. I believe it was PappaZorro, and that he had Molot do the modification. It decreased reliablity because the twister puc was a bad design and had soft metal. The molot gas system does not allow for quite as much variation since it does not have the ability to variably restrict flow like most S12s. Moving the gas block inward for a short gas system, moves this fixed pressure window into a higher pressure peak of the firing cycle, and makes it so that you are more likely to have to choose between high power tuning and low power. Or at least choosing between running one end of the spectrum well and the other poorly. Chaos is actually making a rail, but it is taking a while. A bit of searching will get you there. I believe others have modified S12 accessories or RPK forends for the job. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mountain Man 20 Posted June 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 I think the main thing you will see is that there isn't a lot of room for improvement in the V12 short of scrapping the reciever for a lighter more compact format. It is bascally a factory build implementing many of the nicer ideas primarily developed in the American aftermarket/ competition scene. A better safety, and a better mag release could be added. I for one would like to see the long stroke recoil system make it over here... But most of the key parts are already there. You can spend money to make your gun different by changing other parts, but for the most part, it won't be radically better. Several parts you ask for would be down grades or "sidegrades" if that is a word. Most of the mods I have seen were just truing up existing parts such as crooked pic rails. The real upgrade would be to shave off weight and bulk. Someone actually modded a twister puc in Russia for a V12. I believe it was PappaZorro, and that he had Molot do the modification. It decreased reliablity because the twister puc was a bad design and had soft metal. The molot gas system does not allow for quite as much variation since it does not have the ability to variably restrict flow like most S12s. Moving the gas block inward for a short gas system, moves this fixed pressure window into a higher pressure peak of the firing cycle, and makes it so that you are more likely to have to choose between high power tuning and low power. Or at least choosing between running one end of the spectrum well and the other poorly. Chaos is actually making a rail, but it is taking a while. A bit of searching will get you there. I believe others have modified S12 accessories or RPK forends for the job. Gun Fun, I see what you are saying, I hadn't thought about it like that, really good point. Here is how I am setting mine up: Vepr 12 Wood Laminate stock version Bonesteel Vepr 12 Galil Style Folder TSS Trigger Kit CSS Gas Puck Chaos Rail (Ordering starts next week I think) Magpul AK Grip w/ CR123 storage (on order) Eotech EXPS2 Molot GK-01 (On order from Oleg @ Rusmilitary) What I would love to add personally Left side charging handle Chaos rear rail ISPC rail section replacment for rear sight Some way of adding rem chokes Molot 8 round mags Some kind of drum w/o the removal of the magwell Magpul RVG FDE Cerokoting You are right though however some of the other things I mentioned previously might be side grades or even down grades in some cases. Thanks for the help, that is actally some good info to think on Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted June 3, 2013 Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 Another word for "side grade" could be personalize. It depends on how much you want to pay for a handle of a different shape or color, etc. Here is my take: in blue Vepr 12 Wood Laminate stock version Bonesteel Vepr 12 Galil Style Folder good choice. TSS Trigger Kit I don't know this product, but a fitted trigger will pretty much always blow a drop in out of the water. I'd rather mod a double hook or use an RSA. CSS Gas Puck Unless it is just to get a compliance part, addressing ports very slightly generally makes more sense to me. Chaos Rail (Ordering starts next week I think) I like the OEM grip, but if you gotsta have a rail, chaos is the way to go. I'd be tempted to drill out some weight if possible. Magpul AK Grip w/ CR123 storage (on order) personalized Eotech EXPS2 ditto Molot GK-01 (On order from Oleg @ Rusmilitary) Good choice, but I'd want either an inline choke or the surprisingly commplex job of chopping and perming the gko1. What I would love to add personally Left side charging handle Agreed 100%. Very worthwhile. Chaos rear rail If there was something wrong with the one there, I guess. aluminum weighs more than plastic. ISPC rail section replacment for rear sight Might be more wiggly. I'd rather use a peep type leaf there myself. However, I believe these take standard RPK sight leafs, and such things are not hard to find as a commercialy available part already. Just google around looking for RPK picitinny sight leafs. Some way of adding rem chokes See above about chop and perm. The usuall technique is to machine the threads out of the compensator so that it slip fits onto the barrel. That leaves enough meat to bore and thread for internal chokes. However since the comp you chose is two piece, and the outer one is aluminum, you have to solder the steel insert to the barrel, and pin the aluminum portion with a stainless pin, then weld the aluminum over the pin holes to keep ATF happy. Molot 8 round mags Why dream small? They have 10 rounders now... Some kind of drum w/o the removal of the magwell Well, you could get a maxrounds if you want to light fire to cash. Magpul RVG personalized, but I like AVG better. FDE Cerokoting Personal That's my take for all it's worth. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mountain Man 20 Posted June 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 Another word for "side grade" could be personalize. It depends on how much you want to pay for a handle of a different shape or color, etc. Here is my take: in blue Vepr 12 Wood Laminate stock version Bonesteel Vepr 12 Galil Style Folder good choice. TSS Trigger Kit I don't know this product, but a fitted trigger will pretty much always blow a drop in out of the water. I'd rather mod a double hook or use an RSA. A modded Tapco G2 CSS Gas Puck Unless it is just to get a compliance part, addressing ports very slightly generally makes more sense to me. Yep for 922R, but with the Chaos rail, grip, and TSS not needed anymore I guess Chaos Rail (Ordering starts next week I think) I like the OEM grip, but if you gotsta have a rail, chaos is the way to go. I'd be tempted to drill out some weight if possible. I lke the look more personal choice and a little more functional, all in all I like the Damage Industries AK modular system but with the caos I can do a lot of the same things. Magpul AK Grip w/ CR123 storage (on order) personalized agreed Eotech EXPS2 ditto went back and forth and back and forth and decided on this over the FF3 because I just liked the sight picture and enhanced field of view more. Molot GK-01 (On order from Oleg @ Rusmilitary) Good choice, but I'd want either an inline choke or the surprisingly commplex job of chopping and perming the gko1. I really have to find more out about this, this is my end goal I just need somewhere to send it out to... ANY ideas What I would love to add personally Left side charging handle Agreed 100%. Very worthwhile. I know right! Chaos rear rail If there was something wrong with the one there, I guess. aluminum weighs more than plastic. I guess I was envisioning a whole rail system that was a flatop and more streamlined like their saiga system ISPC rail section replacment for rear sight Might be more wiggly. I'd rather use a peep type leaf there myself. However, I believe these take standard RPK sight leafs, and such things are not hard to find as a commercialy available part already. Just google around looking for RPK picitinny sight leafs. THANK YOU for wording this correctly for me I was screwing it up goggling it! Some way of adding rem chokes See above about chop and perm. The usuall technique is to machine the threads out of the compensator so that it slip fits onto the barrel. That leaves enough meat to bore and thread for internal chokes. However since the comp you chose is two piece, and the outer one is aluminum, you have to solder the steel insert to the barrel, and pin the aluminum portion with a stainless pin, then weld the aluminum over the pin holes to keep ATF happy. I NEED THIS, I wonder who can do this service? Molot 8 round mags Why dream small? They have 10 rounders now... Question are they $200? Some kind of drum w/o the removal of the magwell Well, you could get a maxrounds if you want to light fire to cash. Just on principle alone, never ever.... Magpul RVG personalized, but I like AVG better.I think I need to try both FDE Cerokoting Personal I saw a AR 308 done in all FDE and have been in love ever sine! That's my take for all it's worth. Very appreciated, thanks!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Thor's Hammer 33 Posted June 13, 2013 Report Share Posted June 13, 2013 I want US made floorplates for the factory mags! Then I can keep my awesome Molot grip! I suppose if it really came down to it I could whittle something out of aluminum myself... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mountain Man 20 Posted June 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2013 Oleg, (Rus Military) said he might be able to order the rear sight leaf rail rail replacment, but waiting to hear back. That would be awesome, I might but 3-5 in case other people wanted to pickup any... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
menace667 194 Posted June 14, 2013 Report Share Posted June 14, 2013 I like thors idea of a us made floor plate for factory mags. Maybe even a copy US follower, then we could have a bunch of 8 and 10 round factory magazinesthat are 2 part US compliant. Most will agree that factory mags are superior to aftermarket so that would be freaking awesome. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Thor's Hammer 33 Posted June 14, 2013 Report Share Posted June 14, 2013 I like thors idea of a us made floor plate for factory mags. Maybe even a copy US follower, then we could have a bunch of 8 and 10 round factory magazinesthat are 2 part US compliant. Most will agree that factory mags are superior to aftermarket so that would be freaking awesome. There can't be much to that floorplate. When I get back home I'll knock one out so I can keep my Molot grip. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted June 14, 2013 Report Share Posted June 14, 2013 They were easy enough to make for the Izzy mags...http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/gallery/image/5713-0119122223a/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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