howdy!

[xenonightx 1]

Howdy everyone! I just moved to Florida from Texas, and need to restock my gun cabinet.

 

I have owned a remington 870 super mag, and a yugoslavian SKS in the past, and done quite a bit of competition pistol shooting and handled quite a few firearms especially military rifles.  My most beloved gun ever was the SKS as it was absolutely foolproof and relatively cheap to shoot.  Thus, I came to realize the superiority of many russian weapons in home defense situations. Now that I have a wife to protect, its time to get serious.  

 

Enter the Saiga...

 

From what I have read here, these things are not quite as foolproof as I would have hoped.  Nonetheless, they seem to be easy to operate, and have that all important box magazine.  I also want my wife to be able to handle this weapon in a pinch, so relatively low recoil and point and shoot capabilites are a must.  I also enjoy tinkering, and have considered some of the tromix variants.  I originally was considering a short barreled 20ga shooting 3in 00buck, but it seems these guns have considerable issues. 

 

Give me your initial thoughts, I am a picky man with plenty of questions before I commit to a gun I have never handled.   

[kevinfreel 215]

I don't know anything about the Saiga 12 but plenty here do! Welcome to the forum.

[Maxwelhse 1,285]

Welcome to the forum!

 

My personal opinion is that a Saiga can run as well as any other semi auto shotgun, but mine is strictly a toy and just for fun (much like my 1891/30) and was never intended to be a defense piece. My S-12 is also too much for my woman to handle (it's way too heavy and too hard for her to rack the bolt). Right now I use .45s for home defense but would like to get a couple of simple 12ga pumps to replace them (Mossberg 500 comes to mind, she can handle a pump just fine). So, with all of that said, what do you think your wife would like or is that only a minor consideration?

 

edit: Oh.. and of course you should get a Saiga as well! I grew up in the era of the street sweeper becoming a DD so I *HAD* to have an S-12 once the MD drums hit the market.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Maxwelhse

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

Welcome to Saiga12.com!

 

My advice on a HD/SD shotgun for the wife would initially be something almost foolproof, easy to operate & inexpensive.

Something like a Mossberg 500 20g.

I'd also say to get her a handgun and formal training in it's, and the shotties use.

 

Then you can get yourself a S12 and make it run like a raped ape.

 

Why did you have to get rid of your previous firearms?

Edited March 16, 2014 by ChileRelleno

[Spartacus 1,619]

Welcome to the forum.

 

Most S-12's out of the box are extremely reliable with the high brass loads they were designed for.

Even after the typical pistol grip conversions, most will still be reliable with high brass.

 

That said, it's very common to need to do some work on them to be able to run low brass target loads %100.

 

Last time at the range, it was my pump that had the problem. My buddy got a shell stuck under the elevator

and I had to pull the barrel off to clear the jam.

 

My S-12 on the other hand ran fine all day with target loads.

 

I would think the S-12 with low recoil buck and a decent stock/recoil pad would be no problem for your wife.

My daughter (24yo, normal frame) has no problem with the S-12. She does say slugs are like a punch in the

shoulder, but she'd have no problem grabbing the S-12 for defensive situations.

[EthanM 514]

Welcome!

 

You definitely need a saiga. (Or vepr) with the right parts (recoil pad, muzzle break, or whatever) the recoil is not bad at all. The biggest issue women have had shooting mine is the weight of the firearm. The saiga I usually shoot is pretty heavy (Tri rail, muzzle break, light, kitchen sink) They general like the one in my avatar pic better because it's not as heavy, even with the increased recoil. Only one woman has not liked shooting it at all. She was very petite. And I may have switched the shells from bird shot to 3" magnums while she wasn't looking...man did I get cussed out. (So worth it though haha)

[Maxwelhse 1,285]

Welcome!

 

You definitely need a saiga. (Or vepr) with the right parts (recoil pad, muzzle break, or whatever) the recoil is not bad at all. The biggest issue women have had shooting mine is the weight of the firearm. The saiga I usually shoot is pretty heavy (Tri rail, muzzle break, light, kitchen sink) They general like the one in my avatar pic better because it's not as heavy, even with the increased recoil. Only one woman has not liked shooting it at all. She was very petite. And I may have switched the shells from bird shot to 3" magnums while she wasn't looking...man did I get cussed out. (So worth it though haha)

 

So you're one of those youtube "let's make fun of girls" douches...? j/k j/k

 

Seriously though, I agree with what you said.  it's the weight (and racking the bolt while handling the gun safely) that takes mine out of competition for every woman that has ever handled it.

[Voltia 375]

The saiga is reliable for its designed loads. It is, like said above, modifiable into reliability for light loads.

 

However, the ergonomics, recoil, and trigger out of the box are not good. It is a military firearm, and an inexpensive

one, so it will not be as slick as a Benelli, but it will be 1/3 the cost.

 

But, it is one of the only box mag fed shotguns out there (and drum, baby!) and, if you become proficient at running the

gun, it is awesome. Shotgun shells are heavy, it is heavy, and high brass loads hurt the shoulder. I don't recommend

women or little men going to the Saiga for the first line of home defense. I recommend a full frame pistol with a large

round count of whatever the shooter likes for the first home defense weapon. Then, I'd recommend either a shotgun

for men, but for recoil sensitive people, an M4 variant of the AR-15 is a perfect choice. I know women who are deadly

to 500 yards all damn day long with a carbine AR.

[xenonightx 1]

Thanks for the input!  I like this community already!

 

Some folks are die hard pump action guys.  I love em too but I have had a similar issue with my 870 as spartacus did, and that sort of made me want something else.  I have used a few mossbergs that I was not impressed with, and I think that the issues with my 870 stemmed from the fact that it had a 3.5in chamber.  During extremely fast cycling, it would occasionally fail to grab the spent cartridge and then fail to load on the same stroke, essentially wasting a pump.  Sometimes, It would an early release of the firing pin and force me to eject a live cartridge.  On one very bad occasion I had both of these occurances happen simultaneously where I had a live cartridge in the chamber that failed to eject, and then had another live round that the action had tried to push into the already full chamber, resulting in me having to dismantle the barrel.  All in all, NOT what I want in an HD shotgun. 

 

I did like the way that gun felt though and it had a very consistent spread, much more so than any lesser shotgun that I have used.  Sadly, they had to be sold because I moved away for school and thought that I would be in a dorm.  I didn't end up in a dorm so it was sort of disappointing. 

 

I am very fond of military guns, and heavy ones at that!  So I feel like I could really be comfortable with the Saiga, especially a short one.  The box mag is a must, as god forbid I have to reload, there will be another taped side by side.  A .45 will be next in my collection of HD weapons, but if I am suddenly awakened and groggy and its dark, I want a high capacity gun with a blinding light and a huge spread. 

 

Concerning my wife, my preference is definitely of primary importance but she may have to use it if I am away.  My wife is short and muscular framed.  She could handle the weight, but she doesnt like recoil.  Heavy weapons help with this in my experience as well as semi-autos, and shorter barrels.  In addition I was thinking of the 20ga as a method of further reducing it.  Concerning safe handling: we do not have children, and I keep my guns available and ready to shoot other than a safety that is quick to disengage. 

 

What I dont want, (and it seems like this may be the case with the 20ga) is a gas mechanism made for 12ga shells stuck on a 20ga barrel and reciever.  I mean, I want components that are engineered for the platform.  This is also a factor with aftermarket support for the 20ga. which seems to be lacking compared to the 12, which may result in compliance issues considering the legal hoops we have to jump through when modifying these guns. 

 

I am also open to a  Saiga-12,VEPR-12 or something else if the Saiga-20 is just not a viable option here.  Let me know what you guys think, I'm eager to hear it!

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

Brand new Vepr12 at any number of online retailers.

For instance, AimSurplus, $999.99.... Ready to go, no conversion, buy mags & ammo.

I'd buy the Vepr if I was in the market right now.

[csspecs 1,987]

If for some reason you decide to go with a pump shotgun. There is a pump shotgun that takes Saiga 12 magazines. I won't recommend them because I have never seen one in person.. And all my efforts to meet with the makers have fallen through, despite being 30 minutes away and me offering to promote them as a compatible firearm... Not sure what is up with that.

 

The maker is black aces tactical out of Winter garden FL. A basic model already built will set you back around $770 

[Maxwelhse 1,285]

It sounds like your problem may have been "extremely fast cycling"? I'm not at all a die hard pump guy (or die hard anything guy, really...) but I still believe them to be more reliable than a semi-auto. I say that as a guy that ONLY has an S-12 for a shotgun at the moment, so don't read me wrong. If ultimate reliability is your concern, get a double barrel and practice reloading drills (that's actually been on my mind for a "shop" gun if I can find one cheap enough) if you believe that you  need more than 2 shots inside your house. I'm a mechanical guy and believe that the simplest machine is generally the best. Now... is it the most fun? almost never! Hence, S-12 time...

 

I encourage you to re-think the notion of double stacked 8 round (or more) box mags (especially metal box mags)... You're talking about A LOT of weight hanging off the gun, and to be honest, it makes for a firearm with a terrible center of gravity. My S-12 with a 20 round drum weighs exactly "an absolute shit-ton" and isn't exactly a natural thing to grab on to at 4am when I can't see or think straight. Double 8s would probably be worse...

 

I do have to ask the question of what scenario you expect to face where you would need more than 8 shotgun rounds before you could make it to your battle rifle? I'm currently relying on 8 rounds of .45acp for that job and I have about a 30' trip. I'm comfortable with that.

 

Moving on, if your preference is your wife being comfortable, take her down to the store and see what she likes. The odds of finding a non-sporterized Saiga are low, but the odds of finding a normal AK rifle and bringing a pillow case full of batteries to hang off of the receiver aren't too bad. Have her try a few out and see what SHE likes. Again, OF COURSE, you need an S-12... My opinion is that if you're going to screw around with conversion and the quirks of a Russian gun, you should get the BIGGEST of the breed. I'd like to have an S-20, but... well... it's WAY down on my list.

 

My final thought in this reply is that if you don't already own a solid full-frame .45acp, you should probably start there. A good basic .45 should be at the top of everyone's list, right below a .22LR rifle (choose your flavor, I like the 10/22). One of my .45acp's holds 13+1, has a weaver rail for a light, and spare mags are $30/ea (Glock-21.. LOVE IT!).

 

Anyhow, I've done a lot of work to talk you out of a Saiga shotgun... I hope that I didn't work too hard. You absolutely SHOULD own one (sooo awesome), but maybe it should be a little bit further down your list of required firearms? I don't have many guns compared to many here (under a dozen) but I was very careful about what I bought and when I did so. I had a good .45acp, a good .22LR pistol and rifle, a good battle rifle, and plenty of some ammo for them all before I moved on.

 

P.S. I'm really glad you're enjoying the community so far. Don't be afraid to branch out and enjoy some other sections as well. Things seem a bit slow these days so we need all we can get!

 

edit: Check the place out more and see if you continue to like what you see. If you do, maybe become a contributor? (I'm not associated with forum management in any way at all, but I'm very grateful to have the place and would like to see it continue forward).

Edited March 16, 2014 by Maxwelhse

[EthanM 514]

 

 

Welcome!

You definitely need a saiga. (Or vepr) with the right parts (recoil pad, muzzle break, or whatever) the recoil is not bad at all. The biggest issue women have had shooting mine is the weight of the firearm. The saiga I usually shoot is pretty heavy (Tri rail, muzzle break, light, kitchen sink) They general like the one in my avatar pic better because it's not as heavy, even with the increased recoil. Only one woman has not liked shooting it at all. She was very petite. And I may have switched the shells from bird shot to 3" magnums while she wasn't looking...man did I get cussed out. (So worth it though haha)

 

 

So you're one of those youtube "let's make fun of girls" douches...? j/k j/k

Just on the weekends. I'm a real sweetheart through the week. Haha na that was payback for a prank she had pulled on me earlier that day. Haha we did crap like that to each other all the time haha

[EthanM 514]

Oops I double tapped lol

Edited March 16, 2014 by Ethan

[jerry52 893]

They come in 20 gauge &410. that might be an option.

It depends on the strength and desire of your wife. Is this your Idea or hers? If it is not hers you will have the gun and will be looking for a gun she wants.

My wife wanted no part of a S-12 or my 223 Saiga. So she got her self a M&P40C first and a Colt Mustang 380 Pocket-lite. She loves them both and know how to use them.

Also welcome to the forum and also the Gun Shine State

Edited March 16, 2014 by jerry52

[Big John! 2,062]

Do you think she will really care about recoil if she were using it to defend herself?  Bypass the S12 and go straight to the vepr.  Buy once, cry once.

[xenonightx 1]

maxwellhse and jerry52.  You guys bring up some really good points.  It is my idea that she should be able to use it, and using it with 2 mags side by side would make for a gangly beast of a weapon, that I doubt she would jump for.  Another reason for initially thinking that the 20ga would be better. 

 

But maybe you guys are right that a Saiga should be further down on my list.  I am all for a 12ga. if it is going to be exclusively my weapon, in which case I might consider the vepr12 as it seems a little more refined.  That being said, I have a few issues with the vepr12.  A plastic mag well being one of them, and the other being compliance issues due to modifying it to my specifications with limited aftermarket support.  Honestly, if I had the cash I would just be done with it and go for the holy grail of box fed shotguns: the Spas-15. 

 

As far as non HD purposes, I still like to shoot my guns.  I can have just as much fun accurizing a 1911 and doing indoor target practice, as I can shooting skeet with any type of shotgun.  I do know that my wife appreciates skeet shooting far more than dumping money into an accurized 1911 though.  I'll get her a PPK later

 

So lets focus on Saiga-12 vs. Vepr-12 with the idea that this is going to be MY gun with a primary HD purpose.  Hi capacity, short barrel, compensated, Pistol grip, night sights, flashlight mount, superb trigger action, 100% reliabilty.  Good news is she usually ends up liking my style.

 

Gun Shine State huh... Havent heard that before.  I like it! Give me your thoughts.

[Dad2142Dad 6,559]

I own both and both are formidable tools when it comes to home defense. You will see lots of stuff about how Saigas and even Veprs have a hard time running on low brass, which in some cases is true.

 

However in the home defense situation the ammunition you will be using will not be an issue. Currently Veprs are slightly more expensive, can't remember if someone has done a drum yet for it.

 

I have a Vepr12 by my bed, 12rd mag, alternating 00Buck and magnum slugs. There is a 9mm Springfield with extended mag (20), hollow points mixed with critical defense. One foot away is a wall safe with a Saiga 7.62x39 40rd mag, mixed hollow point FMJ and zombie rounds.The wife has her own arsenal on the other side of the bed.

 

My S12 currently sits on the bench, mid project.

 

I know I can fire all three and not kill the neighbors.

 

House has alarm for windows, doors and braking glass. The sign out front and back say "Nothing inside is worth your life". The back gate is locked with a Ruger gun lock, which is right next to a backstop, full of holes and lead.

 

There are several other things which will be a surprise for those dumb enough.

 

PM me if you want to hear more.

[EthanM 514]

If I was gonna buy now, it would definitely be the vepr. It's converted, mag well, lrbho, ak sights, and the list keeps going lol it really is a nice weapon and sgm is making a drum for it http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/92401-25-round-drum-for-vepr-12-by-sgm-tactical-coming-soon/

[csspecs 1,987]

I have a few to compare for you.

 

The Vepr 12 magazine well is very stout. I don't see it failing very easily. Mag changes are fairly easy, the bolt locking back is fairly helpful

 

The Saiga 12 is a little lighter, especially if you keep it stripped down to just the necessary.

 

The Fury 12 weighs a little more than either of the Russian 12 gauge shotguns. Several of the parts end up with very thick cross sections.

 

The Saiga 20 gauge is a little lighter than the Saiga 12 and is the lightest of the four. Lower after market parts, but a slightly simpler conversion than the Saiga-12

 

In comparisons using my wife. She ranked the Saiga-20 as OK, the Saiga-12 as a little heavy, the vepr as very heavy, and the fury as unmanageable.

 

The MKA 1919 I've held side by side with the vepr-12 and I'd rate it as a little lighter than even the Saiga-20

 

I have a scale and can weigh them.

[Maxwelhse 1,285]

Do you think she will really care about recoil if she were using it to defend herself?  Bypass the S12 and go straight to the vepr.  Buy once, cry once.

 

I think if the first shot blows the gun out of her hands and is massively off target that he would have been better off to buy her an aluminum bat.

 

 

maxwellhse and jerry52.  You guys bring up some really good points.  It is my idea that she should be able to use it, and using it with 2 mags side by side would make for a gangly beast of a weapon, that I doubt she would jump for.  Another reason for initially thinking that the 20ga would be better. 

 

But maybe you guys are right that a Saiga should be further down on my list.  I am all for a 12ga. if it is going to be exclusively my weapon, in which case I might consider the vepr12 as it seems a little more refined.  That being said, I have a few issues with the vepr12.  A plastic mag well being one of them, and the other being compliance issues due to modifying it to my specifications with limited aftermarket support.  Honestly, if I had the cash I would just be done with it and go for the holy grail of box fed shotguns: the Spas-15. 

 

As far as non HD purposes, I still like to shoot my guns.  I can have just as much fun accurizing a 1911 and doing indoor target practice, as I can shooting skeet with any type of shotgun.  I do know that my wife appreciates skeet shooting far more than dumping money into an accurized 1911 though.  I'll get her a PPK later

 

So lets focus on Saiga-12 vs. Vepr-12 with the idea that this is going to be MY gun with a primary HD purpose.  Hi capacity, short barrel, compensated, Pistol grip, night sights, flashlight mount, superb trigger action, 100% reliabilty.  Good news is she usually ends up liking my style.

 

Gun Shine State huh... Havent heard that before.  I like it! Give me your thoughts.

 

Who said 1911? If I'm going to have a lead brick of a gun it's going to be a double stack and probably a Glock. .45acp is just hard to argue with in almost any situation. It's a flat out good round and if you don't have one you should probably get one. I owned 2 .45s before I ever even considered a shotgun. Maybe I'm goofy in my thinking?

 

Since the debate is now VEPR-12 vs. S-12 and your wife be damned,  my personal opinion (and I do want a VEPR-12 bad... but not as bad as I want a VEPR in 7.62x54R) is S-12 all the way. The community and aftermarket support for Saiga-12s is absolutely outstanding and nearing the level of AR-15 support. The VEPR-12s aren't even close in that regard but in time I'm sure they will be. New out of the box gun vs. gun I believe the VEPR is superior. But... that only takes you so far. The SPAS-15 falls into the same category but even worse. I know right now that I can email Tony Rumore at Tromix, Cobra at Cobra's Customs, or any number of a dozen other excellent vendors and get legitimate advice from them even if I never buy a single part from them. The advice those people may offer me is based on a over a decade of experience with these shotguns. I haven't looked into it that deeply, but I doubt that VEPR-12 has that type of rock solid support just yet.

 

Past that, if you look around you can find an S-12 for 1/2 the price of a VEPR-12 and it certainly isn't 1/2 the shotgun. I believe the right answer is to own both, but I'd start with the Saiga.

[Big John! 2,062]

 

Do you think she will really care about recoil if she were using it to defend herself?  Bypass the S12 and go straight to the vepr.  Buy once, cry once.

 

I think if the first shot blows the gun out of her hands and is massively off target that he would have been better off to buy her an aluminum bat.

 

 

 

 

C'mon Max.  While I hate the youtube vids of guys doing this to their wimmins, there are very few wimmins that can't effectively fire a damn shotgun.  They may not like it and it may hurt a little, but a single day at the range will prepare them for what's going to happen should they need it and adrenaline will take care of the rest.

 

I really think that this is an area that gets over thought pretty regularly.  Wimmins are stronger than they let on.

 

If your woman truly can't fire a 12g when faced with rape or death, then maybe you ought to be rethinking using firearms all together for her. 

[Maxwelhse 1,285]

C'mon Max.  While I hate the youtube vids of guys doing this to their wimmins, there are very few wimmins that can't effectively fire a damn shotgun.  They may not like it and it may hurt a little, but a single day at the range will prepare them for what's going to happen should they need it and adrenaline will take care of the rest.

 

I really think that this is an area that gets over thought pretty regularly.  Wimmins are stronger than they let on.

 

If your woman truly can't fire a 12g when faced with rape or death, then maybe you ought to be rethinking using firearms all together for her. 

 

 

I'm a long way from a woman hater so don't get me wrong. BUT... No woman that I've handed my S-12 (the topic of conversation) to has been able to demonstrate an ability to properly handle the firearm in a safe fashion (it's too damn heavy and the recoil spring is too much for them to manage when racking the bolt). My woman can handle a 12ga just fine, but the S-12 is different beast. I don't even want to get into dropping DOUBLE 8 round mags to clear a jam in an emergency and then stuffing them back in the gun, racking it, and taking a pose to fire it. I'm a large man, with very little sissy in me, and I'm not confident that I could do that if my life depended on it. I'm just trying to steer the OP into what he originally asked about, a firearm his woman would be happy with. My final suggestion, which I give to ANYONE thinking about becoming a new firearm owner, was to take her to the store and see what she liked. I'll pay you $100 if you find a woman that says she wants an S-12 above ANY other firearm for HD. I don't even want an S-12 for HD. Now... if some civil disturbance was brewing and I had more than 30 seconds to prepare for it, my S-12 would absolutely be by my side. My battle rifle would be first and I'd give the lady my .22LR tack drivers because she really CAN make impressive shots with that round.

 

Anyhow, if his woman is Zoe Bell then this isn't even a topic of discussion. Give her all the gun he can afford and let her roll. The women in my life are NOT Zoe Bell...

 

edit #1534: Back on topic edit to the OP: I just sent Tony at Tromix a "what's up?" email just to shoot the bull and got a nearly immediate response (I don't own a Tromix gun and have only spent about $200 on Tromix parts... I'm just another dude to him). Cobra is always within a day (just to shoot the bull or do business... Shannon is a great guy and I look forward to doing business with him) and Greg at CSS is ALWAYS nearly instant (he doesn't sleep or has 4 clones... I'm convinced of it and I can't believe how quickly he responds to customer inquiries... It's literally unbelievable)... That's 3 reasons right there to go for an S-12 over all others. If you don't believe me try it out for yourself. Cobra and CSS are very active members here and Tony is easy to find at rumore@tromix.com (he isn't around here anymore but is no doubt a godfather of the S-12 community). I don't think you'll find any better support for ANY firearm, never mind the narrow focus of Russian semi-auto shotguns.

 

edit #1535: Depending where you are at in FL you may want to look up "evlblkwpnz" (another guy that doesn't post here anymore... I won't lie... I'm a giant fan boy of his because his guns run, he knows what he's talking about (listen to whatever GunFun tells you as well, I consider them both to be absolute experts among the non-business members), and makes killer videos to show us all that his stuff runs... The last time I conversed with him he was in the midst of setting up a gun smiting operation in FL. There is no debate that his shotguns run like scalded dogs. Just from shooting the bull in PMs I believe him to be a completely great guy and I would suspect he may even let you run a few rounds through his collection if you made the trip (and I will be forever jealous if you do!!!). He's also getting big into VEPR-12s and I doubt that he's a "dummy" on the topic..

 

To complete my fanboy-ism... Here's his youtube channel:

 

www.youtube.com/user/evlblkwpnz

 

edit #1536: This is what I'm talking about... and no.. those pauses you see in the video are not a repeat or Adobe After Effects going on... His stuff really does run that way. Again, I'm a fanboy, but I suppose I could pick a worse hero?

 

 

edit #1537: I didn't immediately notice this one on his channel.... This is ammo that an S-12 isn't supposed to eat feeding from drums magazines that are generally considered less reliable than box mags (in the context of all firearms, not S-12s or MD-20s)...

 

 

I missed another crucial addition... 6.5" S-12 with drum shooting fireballs (he made this one at my request... COOL video)

 

Edited March 17, 2014 by Maxwelhse

[xenonightx 1]

Well these videos certainly make for a compelling case for the Saiga 12!!!

 

Looks like evlblkwpnz among others has figured these guns out no doubt!  I could rest easily getting a Saiga-12 now knowing that while out of the box it may not handle like one of his babys, but that just means a more exciting journey to something fantastic!

 

Heres another kicker though? Can a Vepr do that? If not the choice is obvious.  I know some of you might see those videos and think: how on earth can this guy not KNOW after seeing that and hearing the arguments?  Well throwing down for anything that runs as smoothly and packs this kind of punch is a fairly sizeable chunk of change, so I just want to be sure that a little more up front wont give me more in the long run.  I totally agree with the buy once cry once philosophy, which is why I am still asking.  I do think I know the answer though

[Maxwelhse 1,285]

Dude... Just PM evlblkwpnz and see if it's realistic for you to have a range day with him (you lucky Florida bastard)... The last time I followed his 6.5" barrel S-12 SBS that was down right insane and I believe it was called "lil-evl"... If you're in gas money distance, and he is game (great guy to shoot the bull with over the internet), and you DON'T fire that gun, then I really don't have any conversation left to you. Buy an S-12, a VEPR-12, or a sharp clawed hamster to throw at bad guys... If you don't fire "lil evl", if he's game, then I really don't know what to say... 

 

That said, this community is full of excellent builders and there is no shortage of quality information available. My personal goal is to make my stuff run the way his does (mostly because I've seen the most documentation of his stuff running "right" and he's never been shy about helping someone else get there). If someday I buy a Tromix gun or a Cobra gun or a TAC47 gun, or a whoever gun, I just want it to run that way and I won't be happy until it does.

 

There's no getting around the point that the S-12 is 1/2 the price of a VEPR-12 if you shop around. I'm sure that a VEPR-12 can run like a monster as well, but it's going to cost more and you don't get MD-20s with that.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Maxwelhse

[xenonightx 1]

Too late, he got to me before you even said get in touch.  You were dead on about the community man!  Good folks here.  I didn't even have to ask, he invited me!  We have been back and forth a couple times.  Unfortunately, im about 4 or 5 hours away, but I think the drive is going to be justified when I can get out there. 

 

Its still up in the air about an S12 or V12.  I will definitely let you guys know with glamour shots once I find my match. 

[csspecs 1,987]

What part of the state are you in?