jeremiahisnaked 64 Posted April 3, 2014 Report Share Posted April 3, 2014 Anyone able to use the patent drawing that showed up a few years to model that beast in a Badass (evlblksbs, cough,)Saiga? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Maxwelhse 1,285 Posted April 3, 2014 Report Share Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) You already said it yourself... PATENT drawing... It would be illegal for you to manufacture a part off of their patented design. If you print one out and it runs, good for you, but no one here should be helping you with that. However... There is NOTHING wrong or illegal about improving a patented design and getting your own patent based on those improvements. From what I've seen of MD's patent on the DS mags, you're going to have a hard time with that. I suggest you focus your energy in a new and different direction or buy MD out of their patent (I'm suspecting that Mike has made himself a multi-millionare off his drum alone... so... it's gonna take some bank to get him to sell his design... I don't suspect he needs the quick money). edit: err... Hang on... Are you just talking about a 3D computer model or actually making a part? A 3D model is legal to possess off of a patented design and if Mike's patent is a done deal he may even be willing to send you some "dumb" (.igs, 3d pdf, etc) data just to tinker with... Now that my email is working right (on a different account) just shoot a message over to info@mdarms.com and ask the man himself. Edited April 3, 2014 by Maxwelhse Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wagnikov 186 Posted April 3, 2014 Report Share Posted April 3, 2014 Anyone able to use the patent drawing that showed up a few years to model that beast in a Badass (evlblksbs, cough,)Saiga? We'll first of all there are no patent police. It is the patent holders responsibility, to defend, and prosecute. Secondly only thing a patent protects is the profits gained by such patent. So mike could sue him for... That's right, nothing. As nothjng is being sold here. Now if he attempted to "manufacture and sell" that would be different. But don't act like he's attempting to open the ark of the Old Testament. He is actually attempting to "market"and promote FOR md arms, and build an idlol in his name! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hdskumm 39 Posted April 3, 2014 Report Share Posted April 3, 2014 However... There is NOTHING wrong or illegal about improving a patented design and getting your own patent based on those improvements. From what I've seen of MD's patent on the DS mags, you're going to have a hard time with that. So, improving the design specifically to work with the Vepr12 could be re-patented and manufactured for profit? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wagnikov 186 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 We'll mike said his patent covered multiple calibers and platforms. I believe the original post was about 3D modeling an image of the mag with evils bad to the bone gun Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Maxwelhse 1,285 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) We'll first of all there are no patent police. It is the patent holders responsibility, to defend, and prosecute. Secondly only thing a patent protects is the profits gained by such patent. So mike could sue him for... That's right, nothing. As nothjng is being sold here. Now if he attempted to "manufacture and sell" that would be different. But don't act like he's attempting to open the ark of the Old Testament. He is actually attempting to "market"and promote FOR md arms, and build an idlol in his name! As a design engineer I consider myself to be the patent police and would happily report any activity that is "questionable" to the patent holder. Also.. You're right... As long as he didn't try to sell it I think he'd be in the green. However... There is NOTHING wrong or illegal about improving a patented design and getting your own patent based on those improvements. From what I've seen of MD's patent on the DS mags, you're going to have a hard time with that. So, improving the design specifically to work with the Vepr12 could be re-patented and manufactured for profit? As I've read his patent I don't see that he specifically calls out the S-12, so, probably not. An adjustment of his design for a different shotgun isn't really a novel improvement. The best thing to do is to study the actual patent, found here: http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-adv.html&r=1&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=PG01&S1=20120066950.PGNR.&OS=dn/20120066950&RS=DN/20120066950 and consult a patent attorney for their input. The way I'm reading his patent makes me think you're going to have a hard time simply modifying his DS to fit a VEPR-12 and marketing it legally... As noted above, if you just want to make one (and not sell it) then you're fine. We'll mike said his patent covered multiple calibers and platforms. I believe the original post was about 3D modeling an image of the mag with evils bad to the bone gun As I've read his patent, I think he's absolutely correct. He didn't do it stupidly. I DO think it's awesome that he responded to your inquiry knowing that you are interested in possibly building a competeing product. Making a picture of something isn't illegal at all as long as you don't claim it's anything more than a representation.. Knock yourself out. I think it would be easier to just ask Mike to test his DS prototype in a SBS and take some pictures. Or... Even better, maybe Evl would build and sell him a 6.5" SBS to use for testing and advertising if he wanted? I know Evl is a BIG MD supporter so I don't think much arm twisting would be required. Edited April 4, 2014 by Maxwelhse Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 Sure, you can improve a design and patent it yourself - but using elements of another person's patented design within your own patent can definitely lead you to a lawsuit. It's best to obtain a license from the patent holder before manufacturing a clearly derivative design.Mike's MD-20 is very clearly derived from the USAS-12 drum design - I would not be surprised if many of the internal parts were interchangeable. He brought a reliable, well-designed drum to the Saiga platform - and he did it extremely well.I figure the double-stack magazines will exist if and when he can get them to be as reliable and effective as his drums. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 Maxwelhse, since you have read the patent in some detail. What is the patented item? Because there are no less than 20 different double to single stack magazines that have been manufactured in volume for rimmed rounds since a little before 1900. So what is different about this magazine that makes it unique. I have a large collection of those magazines and many use all of the same principles that I see at work in this magazine. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wagnikov 186 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 Maxwelhse, since you have read the patent in some detail. What is the patented item? Because there are no less than 20 different double to single stack magazines that have been manufactured in volume for rimmed rounds since a little before 1900. So what is different about this magazine that makes it unique. I have a large collection of those magazines and many use all of the same principles that I see at work in this magazine. AMEN! My thoughts exactly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 I bet you're dead on - but, copying his exact dimensions to produce (for sale) the magazine he has spent time and effort developing would surely violate the patent, and would certainly be unethical.Designing your own double-stack shotgun magazine based on the principles of double-stack rimmed magazines of the past should be perfectly acceptable. He still might try to sue - and would be justified, at least from a commercial standpoint, in doing so. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sunnybean 939 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 Try this on for size. You have to kinda squint to see it but that is a badass flat dark earth 8" SBS with a prototype double stack mag. Lol. 7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wagnikov 186 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 That's is fucking he-lary-eus! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 Maxwelhse, since you have read the patent in some detail. What is the patented item? Because there are no less than 20 different double to single stack magazines that have been manufactured in volume for rimmed rounds since a little before 1900. So what is different about this magazine that makes it unique. I have a large collection of those magazines and many use all of the same principles that I see at work in this magazine. I think it is just the rim channel to drag the top round back. Also, I'm wondering if the patent was granted, or is that just a pending application Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Maxwelhse 1,285 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) Maxwelhse, since you have read the patent in some detail. What is the patented item? Because there are no less than 20 different double to single stack magazines that have been manufactured in volume for rimmed rounds since a little before 1900. So what is different about this magazine that makes it unique. I have a large collection of those magazines and many use all of the same principles that I see at work in this magazine. Hang on.. I SKIMMED the patent trying to keep someone else out of trouble. I haven't genuinely researched it as a scholar and don't intend to (I'm not in the mag business). What Mike was awarded a patent for, via the government description is "Double Stack Box Magazine for Rimmed Cartridges of Varying Length". I've already said I'm not an patent attorney so I'm not all that familiar with the total ins and outs. What I can say, is what Mike (or his attorney) wrote right here: "TECHNICAL FIELD [0002] This application relates to box-type ammunition magazines, particularly to detachable multiple column (double stack) magazines for rimmed cartridges." I'm not NEARLY as familiar with ALL of the firearms of the Earth that many here are, but I've never heard of a rimmed cartridge, of varying length, double-stack magazine before. If it DOES exist, when was it patented in the US? It really doesn't matter what you or I think about it unless either of us wants to file suit (I personally do not). He was awarded the patent for the mag. I'm not trying to piss in MD or CSSSPECS Cherrioes (god knows I've pissed in MD's enough for quite some time) and I look forward to buying both of your products. edit: Patent appears to have been granted 3/22/2012, but I'm not positive. The easiest thing to do is probably to ask the man himself. I've had VERY responsive inquiries from MD-ARMs lately and would hope that you do as well. Edited April 4, 2014 by Maxwelhse Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 The special sauce may be some design feature that is explicitly intended to allow it to feed shells of multiple lengths - other double stack mags for rimmed cartridges that I'm familiar with could not do this. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 I have no interest in making double stack to single stack magazines. I just question patents on firearms magazines since so little has actually changed over the last 100 years. The bren magazines use almost the exact system described in the patent, and it was to allow use of several models of ammunition that varied in length. Their older ammunition was round nosed and the newer was a spitzer, the length was different enough to be a factor. The Bren magazine was actually copied off of earlier work that involved rimmed rounds. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Maxwelhse 1,285 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) I accept that position, but MD appears to be the winner in the patent office thus far. That is all there appears to be to it. Honestly, I'm just thrilled that I can watch a discussion about these types of issues between different mag builders (with another dreamer on the way) post '94, post 9/11, and post Sandy Hook.. Its really an amazing thing! I would have never dreamed of non-DD "street sweepers" and MD brought that to me... I could have never brought myself to paying $150 for (in my opinion, shit quality based on how my Izzy 5 looks) 8 round mags. Now I can buy one for 1/3 the price and in steel! As grim as it is most days, we DO have a couple of shining lights. I think CSSPECS, and recently, MD are those lights... Another is soon to join us outside of the mag business. These are exciting times! Edited April 4, 2014 by Maxwelhse Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 You already said it yourself... PATENT drawing... It would be illegal for you to manufacture a part off of their patented design. If you print one out and it runs, good for you, but no one here should be helping you with that. However... There is NOTHING wrong or illegal about improving a patented design and getting your own patent based on those improvements. From what I've seen of MD's patent on the DS mags, you're going to have a hard time with that. I suggest you focus your energy in a new and different direction or buy MD out of their patent (I'm suspecting that Mike has made himself a multi-millionare off his drum alone... so... it's gonna take some bank to get him to sell his design... I don't suspect he needs the quick money). edit: err... Hang on... Are you just talking about a 3D computer model or actually making a part? A 3D model is legal to possess off of a patented design and if Mike's patent is a done deal he may even be willing to send you some "dumb" (.igs, 3d pdf, etc) data just to tinker with... Now that my email is working right (on a different account) just shoot a message over to info@mdarms.com and ask the man himself. um, ever heard of "derivative works?" They necessarily involve infringement... personal use is sadly also not an exception to patent exclusivity rights. I wish it were. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Maxwelhse 1,285 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) You already said it yourself... PATENT drawing... It would be illegal for you to manufacture a part off of their patented design. If you print one out and it runs, good for you, but no one here should be helping you with that. However... There is NOTHING wrong or illegal about improving a patented design and getting your own patent based on those improvements. From what I've seen of MD's patent on the DS mags, you're going to have a hard time with that. I suggest you focus your energy in a new and different direction or buy MD out of their patent (I'm suspecting that Mike has made himself a multi-millionare off his drum alone... so... it's gonna take some bank to get him to sell his design... I don't suspect he needs the quick money). edit: err... Hang on... Are you just talking about a 3D computer model or actually making a part? A 3D model is legal to possess off of a patented design and if Mike's patent is a done deal he may even be willing to send you some "dumb" (.igs, 3d pdf, etc) data just to tinker with... Now that my email is working right (on a different account) just shoot a message over to info@mdarms.com and ask the man himself. um, ever heard of "derivative works?" They necessarily involve infringement... personal use is sadly also not an exception to patent exclusivity rights. I wish it were. As I said, I'm not an attorney... You just got the word of someone that IS, OP! Edited April 4, 2014 by Maxwelhse Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 No, I am not an attorney. Your fiance is closer to being one, I think. This guy is though: I simply restated the basics that caught my attention, because I used to think the same as you and was disappointed to be contradicted. I had always thought that I could copy a patented item for my own non-commercial use. I've been told otherwise by professors who are lawyers, Some other countries allow that kind of thing - at least for drugs, but even then they have an "anti stockpiling rule" which means in those countries you can research improved versions of patented drugs, but you can't build up any inventory until the patent runs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Maxwelhse 1,285 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) First: THAT IS WHY I TOLD HIM TO SPEAK WITH A PATENT ATTORNEY! I only really know 2 things about the law.. "I don't have to say anything at all" and "I want my legal counsel immediately". --------- That guy is a douche and I feel worse about our legal system from having watched it. She'll be done in May and has already taken some sort of crazy exam before she can even take the bar (MPRE?).. I think you two are nearly parallel and I have no problem with calling either of you lawyers after seeing how much work she has been through. She spent ALL of spring break reviewing L1 law review articles for basically no damn reason other than to say she was on law review when she graduated. I know in the law words have meaning, but on here they have much less meaning, so... you're a lawyer to me and if you say something I listen. Generally speaking, I think most others would be well served to listen to you as well. Edited April 4, 2014 by Maxwelhse Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jeremiahisnaked 64 Posted April 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 No no no no,I meant model in a computer so we could guesstimate what it will look like, as opposed to the brick in the video. M.D. is one of my heroes, no way I would (or could) steal his idea! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sunnybean 939 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 No no no no,I meant model in a computer so we could guesstimate what it will look like, as opposed to the brick in the video. M.D. is one of my heroes, no way I would (or could) steal his idea! What's wrong with my rendition in post #11? ;-) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jeremiahisnaked 64 Posted April 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 On post 11 all I see are great set of....oh hhhhhhhh yeah! Great job Sunny! Damn, Max is gung ho about me running off with Mike's idea, whoa! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Maxwelhse 1,285 Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 (edited) On post 11 all I see are great set of....oh hhhhhhhh yeah! Great job Sunny! Damn, Max is gung ho about me running off with Mike's idea, whoa! Sorry man... I didn't understand your original desire. As much bad press as I've accidentally given MD lately I'm just trying to be a better customer. Edited April 5, 2014 by Maxwelhse 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wagnikov 186 Posted April 6, 2014 Report Share Posted April 6, 2014 On post 11 all I see are great set of....oh hhhhhhhh yeah! Great job Sunny! Damn, Max is gung ho about me running off with Mike's idea, whoa! Sorry man... I didn't understand your original desire. As much bad press as I've accidentally given MD lately I'm just trying to be a better customer. Max I thought maybe you got that PR job with MD Arms! Lol 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Maxwelhse 1,285 Posted April 6, 2014 Report Share Posted April 6, 2014 (edited) No... I just feel lower than dirt for how I've treated them lately... I don't feel ashamed about my recent additional support because I have ALWAYS spoken the merits of the MD-20 for a good few years. Mike accepted my apology, but I could have really fucked up his business saying what I said if I didn't keep up on it and have the courage to admit I was wrong. I'm going to feel really terrible for a long time and I'm going to be extra sensitive about his business for awhile. Edited April 6, 2014 by Maxwelhse Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wagnikov 186 Posted April 6, 2014 Report Share Posted April 6, 2014 You got promised one his first doubles to play nice, didnt you! Lol. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Maxwelhse 1,285 Posted April 6, 2014 Report Share Posted April 6, 2014 You got promised one his first doubles to play nice, didnt you! Lol. You wouldn't believe the amount of cyber dick sucking I would be doing if that were the case. It would be completely relentless (or at least in my sig) in my effort. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wagnikov 186 Posted April 6, 2014 Report Share Posted April 6, 2014 Hehehe. Yeah, suck on one dick, and then they want to label ya. Lmao Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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