hk style charging

[Big John! 2,062]

He isnt fucking around just examining an idea on limited resources.

 

Granted 308 isnt a great round to pursue subsonics, I am more inclined to pistol cal carbines for that, but BlackOut is expensive as hell from top to bottom.

 

If you are already heavily vested in 308 having a cheap boltie in the cal is a great idea anyway.

Besides should something go amiss I would rather it happen on a $300 bolt gun, preferably one with 3 lugs, IIRC the Ruger American has 3 lugs. Just IMHO.

 

If just plinking with less noise is the aim I would grab some of the plastic training ammo, fairly good out to +100m frankly. Wont win any competitions but will take down small varmints. 

If you're gonna chime in on limited resources then why are you taking him from $138 to now $300?  Now because of you guys, he's gone from $138 to make a left side charger to gawd only knows.  Thus my taking it to the opposite extreme with the AR10. Sorry boys, nothing but bad info in this thread till I walked in. Buncha guys that can't understand why a guy would want a cheap left side charger especially when Monty is shooting non-cycling subs and hasn't even started on a can purchase yet...  Seriously???

 

 If he stays with a 30 cal can he can run anything from there down.  Doesn't have to be 300.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

I only deduced from what he was writing that money matters.

 

No idea why he wants a left side charging handle, if that is all then the device would seem to fit the bill though I wouldnt touch it without a crap load of feedback on it. It was he that brought up the boltie and it does make sense just what you wrote above makes sense. As I pointed out if he has an investment in 308 a decent shooting bolt rifle seems a wise addition.

 

Lot of reasons for not wanting to get into the BATFE circle jerk, may just not relish asking "master" for permission for all I know.

[Big John! 2,062]

I only deduced from what he was writing that money matters.

 

No idea why he wants a left side charging handle, if that is all then the device would seem to fit the bill though I wouldnt touch it without a crap load of feedback on it. It was he that brought up the boltie and it does make sense just what you wrote above makes sense. As I pointed out if he has an investment in 308 a decent shooting bolt rifle seems a wise addition.

 

Lot of reasons for not wanting to get into the BATFE circle jerk, may just not relish asking "master" for permission for all I know.

Wrong

If you had read the OP he was simply asking for input on the LSCH.

Buy a bolt gun....

 

Wrong again sir ^^^^^^^

I don't want a bolt gun. I want my saiga. If I wanted a bolt gun I'd be asking for suggestions.

 

Monty didn't want a bolt gun.  He wanted his saiga.

What load are you using for the subsonics in 308?

Very interested in your results.

 

I dont see the gain of the mod myself being perfectly fine with cycling the rifle as it is, no worse than a boltie really.

 

Have played around with a few rounds of that plastic training ammo but no subs yet.

Why do you need a "crapload" of feedback for a $138 item?

Edited May 25, 2014 by Big John!

[Sdustin 578]

Ive never known that an ar10 would cycle subs I think that info maybe wrong unless you tune the gas system.

 

Mullet man brought up the bolt gun. Buy I'd I buy the charging thing I'd end up with a scope on the ak that I wouldn't normally buy so that's more than just the 140 dollar price of admission. Id want a scope since the subs would hit drastically different than my irons.

 

And I used to have a300 blackout and still have some brass and loaded ammo. Ive come across some as I'm loading these 308 and that is something I'm thinking about and while end up with again. I'm just more an ak guy but to get an am to run subs and supers is pretty hard.

 

And 300 black is not more expensive than any other ar15 only parts difference is the barrel and ammo. So if you hand load the 300 blackout is very ideal. I just want a way to accurately throw subs from a caliber I'm already shooting. And I know it doesn't matter what bolt gun I get chances are it will be many times more accurate than my saiga and I could get a faster twist barrel that's better for the 220 grain pills I should be loading.

 

I like said

Ak charging 140

Scope 200

So total would be about 350

 

If I can get a used bolt gun and cut it down to 16" and get a cool stock on the future it would be a gun I would have built any way and I'd put that 200 dollar store on it. So if I can find an older bolt action for around 150 which since deer session is over the deer rifles will be cheaper in my parts.

[Spacehog 2,218]

For the record Monty, I like your original idea. .308 is difficult to make subsonic. It can be done, but you've to constantly worry about squibs and it is extraordinarily difficult to get them to cycle the action (nearly impossible unless running suppressed). If you want to buy the bolt gun, cool. But if you are honest with yourself, you know you are going to put more into that bolt gun than purchase price. I vote you modify the Saiga, it will be the best of both worlds, unless you are serious about building a 300 BLK, which is the absolute best of both worlds.

[Big John! 2,062]

Ive never known that an ar10 would cycle subs I think that info maybe wrong unless you tune the gas system.

 

 

Man, this thread is sumpin else...

 

Sig 716 (piston) with AAC 762SDN6.  First three are with the gas turned off.  This is BTW a factory gas adjustment to the piston system.  Next three are with the gas on.

 

For the record Monty, I like your original idea. .308 is difficult to make subsonic. It can be done, but you've to constantly worry about squibs and it is extraordinarily difficult to get them to cycle the action (nearly impossible unless running suppressed). If you want to buy the bolt gun, cool. But if you are honest with yourself, you know you are going to put more into that bolt gun than purchase price. I vote you modify the Saiga, it will be the best of both worlds, unless you are serious about building a 300 BLK, which is the absolute best of both worlds.

I don't know enough about 308 to comment on the difficulty of finding/making subsonic ammo.  I'm fully with you on the rest though.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Big John!

[Sdustin 578]

It's difficult to load just potentially dangerous. I know it'll cost more than the purchase price for the bolt gun but I'd be buying a scope either way. And if I don't shoot subs from the saiga id not put a scope on it. I prefer irons but with subs droping like rocks id want a lower powered scope. Either way I go you guys will see what results.

[Sdustin 578]

Squib..... that is all. Soon my saiga will be a 14 inch barrel with pinned flash hider. Everyone be careful.

[Spacehog 2,218]

I went straight into 300 BLK, after watching a buddy who has considerable experience with nearly every .308 platform known and has been reloading for decades spend a great deal of time trying to perfect a subsonic .308 load. His final conclusion, and one I happen to agree with, is there is just too much case volume in the .308 compared to the small amount of even the fastest powders required to get the velocity low enough. The results were too unpredictable and dangerous. I began referring to his efforts as the "Great Squib-O-Matic Experiment". Sorry to hear it didn't work out Monty, but the 14" barrel with pinned comp sounds sweet.

[Sdustin 578]

Yea I'll end up with a cooler rifle in the long run. But it totally ruined my day. But I could have put the other mag I had in my pocket with full power ammo and blew my face off so at least I noticed in time.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

 

I only deduced from what he was writing that money matters.

 

No idea why he wants a left side charging handle, if that is all then the device would seem to fit the bill though I wouldnt touch it without a crap load of feedback on it. It was he that brought up the boltie and it does make sense just what you wrote above makes sense. As I pointed out if he has an investment in 308 a decent shooting bolt rifle seems a wise addition.

 

Lot of reasons for not wanting to get into the BATFE circle jerk, may just not relish asking "master" for permission for all I know.

Wrong

If you had read the OP he was simply asking for input on the LSCH.

Buy a bolt gun....

 

Wrong again sir ^^^^^^^

I don't want a bolt gun. I want my saiga. If I wanted a bolt gun I'd be asking for suggestions.

 

Monty didn't want a bolt gun.  He wanted his saiga.

What load are you using for the subsonics in 308?

Very interested in your results.

 

I dont see the gain of the mod myself being perfectly fine with cycling the rifle as it is, no worse than a boltie really.

 

Have played around with a few rounds of that plastic training ammo but no subs yet.

Why do you need a "crapload" of feedback for a $138 item?

 

 

Feel better now ? Good 

 

Nothing goes on or in my rifles without a crap load of research. 

 

Meanwhile...

 

Glad you caught the squib Monty. Still say pistol cals make the best sense on subs, true you can go BO and run both but hey if money grew on trees

[james lambert 3,059]

308 is not the best candidate for sub sonic loads.

And who wants to hand cycle?

Build a semi auto in 300aac (blackout)  300 whisper or a pistol round that is proven in suppresed applications.

 

I would go all the way...or go home

[Sdustin 578]

My thoughts were hand cycleing would be about the same as a bolt gun. But I learned my lesson and will be doing another 300 if the big bites me again. Here is the 300 I used to have

I sold it since I had to make it a pistol. Now that the not a stock thing is out I may end up doing another one. Or once I get all set up to cast bullets I may go back to the sub 308 but right now I'm trying to figure out how to remove the squibs in the end if my 308. I think I'll be drilling a snall hole into the center of the bullet.And then try pounding it out again. Worse case I have to shorten and pin on a brake.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Yeah that can be wicked aggravating, guess the wooden dowel and dead blow hammer didnt pan out then.

[james lambert 3,059]

Go to Mcmaster carr on the net

Order a 3 foot piece of 4140 7mm rod stock  $11.00

Drive the projectile out

[Spacehog 2,218]

I didn't realize from your previous post that the reason you were going 14" with a fixed comp was because you can't get the squib out. It will come out with enough coercion. I know it may sound counter- intuitive, but drive it back muzzle end to chamber even if it is only a few inches from the muzzle. It got there, it can be pushed back. Get a sturdy rod as Jim suggested.

[Sdustin 578]

rhodes 300blk only cost more for ammo and if you reload its a non issue. its actually cheaper than 223 if you shoot cheap projectiles. and i will not try jacketed subs in a 308 ever again. i shot 20 rounds fine then had the squib. the bore got dirty and i got fucked, like i said im lucky as i had another magazine in my pocket with full power at least now i justhave to get the bullet out and not looking for a new bolt or worse. if i finally get started casting i may re visit the subs in 308 till then ill just settle for loudness.

 

that is after i get the bullets out.  and there's no way id spend what it would cost for a piston ar10. i am going to be looking for some of the plastic training ammo. on a good note i found TWO factory mags for 29.99 each 

i used a steel ak cleaning rod.....cue the advice. im going to try to drill the bullet center out to give it a little more give. i have a machinist in the family and im going to take it to him and try everything i can to keep from having to cut it down.

[Big John! 2,062]

Damn Monty...  How did you catch the squib?

 

Glad yer ok man...

[Sdustin 578]

Being stupid. Our do you mean how did I notice?

[Sdustin 578]

I had fired 20 rounds with out issue. On the 21st it sount a little different. I didn't think much cause I could have sworn I saw a bullet impact. I fired again and I knew I saw a bullet impact. Fired a third the bolt functioned ejected and sount way different. Well the first round was asquib the second pushed the first out hence the reason I saw an impact the third didn't come out. I took the rifle apart and started to look down the muzzle when I saw a bullet sticking out about a quarter inch. I then commenced to cuss like Hell. I knew this was going to cost nee. And im a broke joke with three kids under 4 and I'm the only income so I knew I was screwed and couldn't just pay for the work or buy a new gun. Luckily my uncle is a machinist that likes guns so he'll help me. Ill be trying to get it out this week or next.

 

Be carful handloading. If anything sounds weird STOP. I learned my lesson and will never load a jacketed sub in 308 again.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Ak Monty

[Voltia 375]

I think some fundamentals of shooting are being forgotten.

 

If you are prone, your support hand is under the fore-end, your elbow is planted. This is the pedestal

from which you are shooting. You do not move this pedestal, you move around it, closer for lower, further away

for higher, left and right with your hips to pivot. You do not move your support arm.

 

To change mags, you do not move your support arm.

To cycle the action, you do not move your support arm.

To turn the safety off, you do not move your support arm.

 

Your firing arm is grounded, but it is of no support. Your natural point of aim would not change with the shooting hand

on the rifle, or not. Your shooting hand simply loosely holds the rifle and squeezes the trigger. That hand is free to do

whatever, as the position is built on the support arm.

 

A bolt rifle, a M1, a  M14, an AR, an AK are all built as classic rifles that you control a field with via standing, sitting, and prone

firing positions. The HK system is made for rapid, off-hand mag changes and charging, and while it makes sense on the MP5

for storming a building, it makes less sense for the G3 or HK91 because they are rifles, and a rifle controls the battefield

via marksmanship.

 

Now, if someone were making a short rifle to storm buildings, a 5.56 platform with off hand capable charging would make sense,

but prone firing at range requires you do everything with the firing hand, or rebuilt your position after mag changes. However,

you'd spend less money, and have a better rifle, simply buying a PTR-91.

[Sdustin 578]

I think some fundamentals of shooting are being forgotten.

 

If you are prone, your support hand is under the fore-end, your elbow is planted. This is the pedestal

from which you are shooting. You do not move this pedestal, you move around it, closer for lower, further away

for higher, left and right with your hips to pivot. You do not move your support arm.

 

To change mags, you do not move your support arm.

To cycle the action, you do not move your support arm.

To turn the safety off, you do not move your support arm.

 

Your firing arm is grounded, but it is of no support. Your natural point of aim would not change with the shooting hand

on the rifle, or not. Your shooting hand simply loosely holds the rifle and squeezes the trigger. That hand is free to do

whatever, as the position is built on the support arm.

 

A bolt rifle, a M1, a M14, an AR, an AK are all built as classic rifles that you control a field with via standing, sitting, and prone

firing positions. The HK system is made for rapid, off-hand mag changes and charging, and while it makes sense on the MP5

for storming a building, it makes less sense for the G3 or HK91 because they are rifles, and a rifle controls the battefield

via marksmanship.

 

Now, if someone were making a short rifle to storm buildings, a 5.56 platform with off hand capable charging would make sense,

but prone firing at range requires you do everything with the firing hand, or rebuilt your position after mag changes. However,

you'd spend less money, and have a better rifle, simply buying a PTR-91.

show me a ptr91 for 140. That's what the hk charging cost. I already own a saiga. I've moved from that idea. Now before I do that I'll get a tax stamp and make a308 ak104 clone.

 

The reason for the is the possible damage on the last 2 inches of rifling from the squib.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

All I would ever use is a wooden dowel or flat ended brass rod, steel would bother the heck out of me.

 

The bullet itself should not hurt anything, after all its what goes through there every time and unless its AP nothing in the bullet is remotely as hard as that chrome.

 

Gun smith should be able to remove it cheap and be able to closely inspect the rifling. Good luck 

[Sdustin 578]

Thanks. There isn't really any gunsmiths around and the ones that are hear ak and don't want to mess with it.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Ak Monty

[Big John! 2,062]

Being stupid. Our do you mean how did I notice?

 

 

I had fired 20 rounds with out issue. On the 21st it sount a little different. I didn't think much cause I could have sworn I saw a bullet impact. I fired again and I knew I saw a bullet impact. Fired a third the bolt functioned ejected and sount way different. Well the first round was asquib the second pushed the first out hence the reason I saw an impact the third didn't come out. I took the rifle apart and started to look down the muzzle when I saw a bullet sticking out about a quarter inch. I then commenced to cuss like Hell. I knew this was going to cost nee. And im a broke joke with three kids under 4 and I'm the only income so I knew I was screwed and couldn't just pay for the work or buy a new gun. Luckily my uncle is a machinist that likes guns so he'll help me. Ill be trying to get it out this week or next.

 

Be carful handloading. If anything sounds weird STOP. I learned my lesson and will never load a jacketed sub in 308 again.

I was serious Monty.  I've never dealt with one so it's good info.

[Sdustin 578]

If you read back I was warning of having a squib and it still was that bad so I knew and understood the danger and it still took two rounds. Watch out and if I had been 100% sure the first hadn't hit the target I'd have less problems.

 

It could be a lot worse so im thankful for that.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Well I guess the good thing is the loads were not powerful enough to grenade your rifle so yeah a ton worse.

 

Seriously not sure why a smith would turn down business but hey weirdness is rampant.

 

As long as nothing is used in the barrel that can scratch it you will clear it, aint welded in there just wedged. Your friend will get it out I am sure.

[james lambert 3,059]

A piece of rod stock that is close to bore diameter can not scratch the bore if you tried!!

And WTF would it matter if it could, not like its a high value or precision rifle.

 

Trying to drive a projectile out with a small rod or cleaning rod or trying to (drill the projectile)

 

Thats how you can trash the barrel!!!

And you need to push it from the rear, a rod on the point of the projectile will only smash the point.

That will lock it up even worse.

 

You have a string of 57 posts here for such a simple problem

[Sdustin 578]

A piece of rod stock that is close to bore diameter can not scratch the bore if you tried!!

And WTF would it matter if it could, not like its a high value or precision rifle.

 

Trying to drive a projectile out with a small rod or cleaning rod or trying to (drill the projectile)

 

Thats how you can trash the barrel!!!

And you need to push it from the rear, a rod on the point of the projectile will only smash the point.

That will lock it up even worse.

 

You have a string of 57 posts here for such a simple problem

The problem happened about 40 posts in. And I wouldn't drill the projectiles unless the rod won't get them out. And the party about not being a precision rifle is my thoughts exactly. If I can't get them out I'll just chop and perm attach a flash hider.