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#1 saxeTAaron

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 10:40 PM

I just bought my gun and am thinking about how I plan to use it for home defense. With the bolt closed I know it will indent a normal shell possibly causing it to not load. If I'm lazy and don't change them out often enough or forget, that would suck. I know I can keep the bolt open, but I've read it can be bad to have the spring compressed all the time. My thought is load the top round using an all-metal shell. Short of loading it myself (which I've never done), I've found only one type easily. It is Steel Bear and I can only find it in #8. I hear it comes in 7.5 as well, but either way it of course isn't ideal for home defense. ...

 

What do you guys think about just keeping one loaded on the top and using buckshot for the remaining rounds? I am wondering about the gas setting. If I keep it on 2 for reliability, will the buckshot be okay to run through at that setting? If I ever needed to use it in this type of situation, I'm sure the last thing on my mind would be damaging my gun. Would my gun handle 19 rounds of buck or slugs on 2 or is there a possibility of it causing a misfire? I'm sure people forget to switch the setting sometimes, but don't know. If so, is this setup something that makes sense to you? Hopefully this isn't too stupid a question, but like I said, I'm a newbie.


Edited by saxeTAaron, 03 April 2015 - 08:30 AM.


#2 GunFun

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 03:22 PM

There is a surplus of info on this topic.

 

TL/DR -- Don't worry about it. For the most part it is not a real problem, but it can be made to happen

 

The steel rounds tend to be kinda weak and not cycle well, and are loaded with birdshot which sucks for HD.

 

Soft shells tend to be worse, particularly with bigger pellets. Bigger pellets = bigger gaps between pellets= soft spots. Therefore smaller pellets with buffer and a shotcup inside a strong shell is ideal. 

 

So I've only been able to reproduce the theoretical problem with S&B 15 pellet OOB (very soft clear hull. No shotcup, no buffer, roll crimp) and also with Remington OOB loads that have been dented from repeated mag inseritons.

 

Federal uses much tougher hulls. Just use federal. Better yet, use a better size of pellet for HD, namely #1 or #4 Buck. They have better patten, better terminal ballistics, and smaller gaps. I did a test using a mag full of Federal #4 in a full 8 round mag. I left it loaded for many months. (Check an older post to find how long it was. I don't want to remembered and state an untruth, but 8 months or so seems right) The same mag was reinserted without moving the top round after every range trip and stored all summer next to the water heater so it was WARM the whole time. No significant visible deformation, just a little rub from the mag being taken in and out repeateldy on aproximately a weekly basis+ whenever I fooled around with it. At the end of the period, I figured the point was made and the mag fed and cycled flawlessly.

 

If you want the best ammo for home defense, just get federal #4 Buck or #1 buck flite control.

 

One good common choice http://www.federalpr...ell.aspx?id=457

Note the velocity. You want 1325 or faster

 

This round is near ideal. Just right pellets size and weight, with the hornady equivalent of the flite control, and about perfect velocity for optimized penetration. 

 

http://www.hornady.c...-VX-4-Buckshot/



#3 metalgodlb

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 04:47 PM

I was considering using the Silver Bear the same way but I had also read reviews of it being weak plus the birdshot only being available like you mentioned. I had both Spartan 00 buck and winchester pdx-1 (I believe, not 100% sure about the second one) and they both got smashed to where they would not chamber. I resorted to locking the bolt open. I bought an extra spring just in case but everything I have read about spring life has to do with repetitive compression and expansion, not continuous load. Having said all that it's still less than ideal for me. I have an 8 rd mag (Molot) mag with one round of Ddupleks hexolit (yellow hull, expanding slug) on the top followed by 7 rds of 00 buck. I'm aware of the slug not being the best hd choice but it is segmented so that would keep down on penetration. Haven't tried closing the bolt on top of one of those yet to see if it smashes it. But I digress, just sharing my setup.

#4 GunFun

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 04:02 AM

Those hexolit slugs are still monster penetrators. From what pictures I've seen of them in bears, moose, hogs, etc. They will actually go deeper than stuff like remington sluggers or the winchester fosters. Those are soft lead and splat into a doughnut pretty quickly. 

 

I think you will find that if you examine your shells which failed to feed, it is probably actually damage at the crimp area from rocking it in on a rough bolt repeateldy not a dent from storing loaded which would be about a half inch back from the crimp. Roll crimps are more vulnerable to that, i.e. S&B and a lot of the stuff like RIO, Nobelsport, Centurian...

 

You just about can't go wrong with a 16 pellet #1 buck load. They should be 1325 FPS and are close to ideal.



#5 JDeko

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 04:35 AM

Why is birdshot bad for Home Defense? I mean at less that 20 feet its basically going to core through someone. Granted I have my Saiga loaded #1 Winchester Blind Side High Velocity, 00 Super-X, 00 Super-X, Blind Side [still only have the factory 4 until I can do my conversion] so I have spread on the first shot and two solid follow-ups with another spread as a last resort but honestly I think anything will be pretty devastating in that close of range from a 12ga.


Edited by JDeko, 04 April 2015 - 04:36 AM.

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#6 patriot

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 08:11 AM

JDeko,

 

There are MANY threads here on the suitability of various payloads for home defense. 


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#7 montec

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 08:02 PM

I've got 000B and Black cloud in my HD mag.  I've tested the patter at about 15ft or so.  I'd hate to be on the receiving end.

 

Then again I'm crazy enough to run Hornady SST slugs thru the s12 on a regular basis.  I prefer my rounds to be 1500fps+.  SST slugs 2000fps, man what a ride.  :)


Edited by montec, 07 April 2015 - 08:03 PM.

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#8 metalgodlb

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 08:11 PM

Why is birdshot bad for Home Defense? I mean at less that 20 feet its basically going to core through someone. Granted I have my Saiga loaded #1 Winchester Blind Side High Velocity, 00 Super-X, 00 Super-X, Blind Side [still only have the factory 4 until I can do my conversion] so I have spread on the first shot and two solid follow-ups with another spread as a last resort but honestly I think anything will be pretty devastating in that close of range from a 12ga.


I'm not under the assumption it's not good for HD, I just had read that the SilverBear specifically had been reviewed as underpowered. GunFun, thanks on the insight regarding the Hexolit, probably not a bad idea to switch that dude out. As soon I do though I bet some moose or bear is gonna creep in and try to raid the fridge (got some shady fuckin creatures around here) kidding
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#9 GunFun

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Posted 08 April 2015 - 04:15 AM

Considering that I spent a few days with a guy who took a 12 ga birdshot round to the navel from about 10 feet when he was 11.... Yes it made his life suck-- a lot. But he was in his 40s and talking to me. Any bigger pellets would have torn his spine out.. This just perforated most of the important bits and left a wound which was not fully closed after ~30 years and numerous operations.  Yes it is one instance, but it demonstrates the basic point. birdshot shreds shallow. Buckshot punches through and takes stuff with it.



#10 JDeko

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Posted 08 April 2015 - 04:27 AM

Granted he was 11 at the time but I doubt he was in much shape to do heavy exercise [like assaulting/murdering people]. To throw back an anecdote I saw something on a cop that took birdshot at point point blank to the vest when the driver of a car shot him at a traffic stop. Basically ruined his ribs and internal organs leaving him on disability for life. 

 

It might not be instantly fatal but I'm pretty sure it'd be debilitating if not crippling. Granted I mostly think of the birdshot as being flying caltrops to increase my chances of hitting with my first shot and to pave the way for buckshot after but I imagine after two blasts of birdshot even you'd not be in the mood to keep trying to cause trouble.


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