pyzik 597 Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 Okay, I am going to start with a very obvious statement.The quality between a Saiga and a WASR is startling. Not exactly in a bad way, it makes me regard my Saiga in a bit higher degree.Even though this is one of the first gun forums I'd ever joined (2006) I've only had one AK and only shot one other one.I never bought into the "broad side of a barn" nonsense talk of the AK but I also didn't really rank it along side say an AR.After picking up this WASR (and I am not knocking it) it really makes me appreciate my Saiga.I'd kind of always felt "an AK is an AK". Just an observation and thought I'd share my "enlightenment".Looking forward to really seeing what the Saiga can do now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 The Bulgarians that Arsenal builds seem of pretty good quality. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DLT 1,646 Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 The difference is pretty obvious when they are right in front of you. When I look at my Yugo, my Norinco, my Bulgarian and all my Saigas, I can see the quality differences just bursting out at you. If I had to rank my rifles, my Bulgarian would probably be number one followed extremly closely by my Saigas, norinco, and the yugo last. They all have their individual strengths and weak points, but the Bulgy is just top notch. In defense of the WASR, I've seen some abused beyond belief and they just keep working! I would never look down or consider one inferior to any other combloc rifle. Now American AK's.....well.... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Garys4598 1,065 Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 The Bulgarians that Arsenal builds seem of pretty good quality. Don't forget the Molot VEPRs! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 (edited) The Bulgarians that Arsenal builds seem of pretty good quality. Yeah but when you're looking at very fine detail, there can still be some variation. E.g. I have two Bulgarian AK-74 parts kits from the same year. Even between the two kits there is a pretty noticeable difference in tooling marks, etc. Keep in mind most of the contractor WASRs were churned out very quickly, and most of them at the time were re-built rifles using milsurp parts, so most of the parts on that rifle were built in communist era tooling and work ethic. The only new parts were the barrel and receiver. Now that a lot of the WASRs are being built on completely new parts (trunnions, sight blocks, etc.) you can find WASRs right now that are very high quality, because they are being manufactured by workers that know they're free citizens when they're off the clock, and they're using modern high tech equipment to make and assemble those parts. Also in another thread there was some mention of the guys at Battelfield Las Vegas/Henderson Arms stating that the WASRs (fully auto converted) on their firing line are the most reliable AK variants, some over 80-100K rounds on the original barrels with no issues. Edited June 3, 2015 by mancat 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pyzik 597 Posted June 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 Mine is an 80s era rebuild. I'm glad I got a rebuild and not a new one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 (edited) Quality is a pretty loose term. Just because one looks aesthetically nice doesn't necessarily make it a better rifle. Lots of things come into play (headspace, heat treating,bullet guides, receiver bends, rail placement, parts alignment) just to name a few. The Saiga's that we own (like it or not) are not always fine examples. The best guns you'll ever own are the ones "you" build or have built by a quality builder. Over the years we've seen horror stories again and again about the Saiga, Arsenal, Wasr 10's, and almost anything Century sub contracts. All can be fixed but I think some of the best builds are from quality builders (Tromix, Lone Star, and R&R come to mind). Of all the kits I've purchased the Yugo's, Polish, and some Bulgarian appear to have a higher quality machining but I've never owned an actual Russian kit. Then there's milled vs stamped receivers, pinned vs threaded barrels. If you want a really nice AK, buy a Valmet or have a quality builder make you one from the best parts kit you can find. I haven't owned a Vepr, Arsenal, or Serbian (former Yugo) guns but for an off the shelf purchase I think that's where I'd put my money. Edit-want some examples of top quality builders across a wide variety of platforms, check out Gary's^^ posts and probably gallery. He's got a long track record on picking top builders that are usually weapon specific. Edited June 3, 2015 by 6500rpm 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 Yep.. My two Romanians are my roughest looking AKs in terms of machining quality on the milled parts, and assembly of receiver rails and rivets, etc. WASR with 1978 kit, and AES-10B with 1969 kit. However I don't doubt either of them will outlive me by a long shot. My WASR has still never choked a single time that I can remember.. There are a couple rifles in my safe I would feel comfortable depending on, but that WASR is probably the one AK I'm absolutely sure will never fail. That level of quality is more useful than whether or not you can see where chatter marks where a dull bit was used, or if some tired Romanian worker slipped on the controls back in the 1970s, or if a rivet head has a little flat spot on it rather than being totally round. I appreciate when that stuff is all done right, but does it really matter? No. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dad2142Dad 6,559 Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 (edited) I only own saigas but question for the op. Even if there are differences in quality, why is it this rifle is in the highest demand worldwide? What is the total kill number? I like AK's because you can beat the snot out of them and keep on running. Pretty rifles sit in display cases and safes. AK's are the blue collar rifles, always there and ready to go. No need to go to the powder room first............. Not trying to be a dick, I just don't think pretty matters when it comes to AK........ Edited June 3, 2015 by Dad2142Dad 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DLT 1,646 Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 It's not just the looks, it's the materials and the little things I tend to look at. I look at the pins used, the steel quality, the thickness of the receivers, the tightness of the build, how the bolt rides on the rails, or rubs in the gas tube, the geometry at the bolt to fcg contact points. The AK100 series are without a doubt a superior design vs the akm pattern rifles. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pyzik 597 Posted June 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 I only own saigas but question for the op. Even if there are differences in quality, why is it this rifle is in the highest demand worldwide? What is the total kill number? I like AK's because you can beat the snot out of them and keep on running. Pretty rifles sit in display cases and safes. AK's are the blue collar rifles, always there and ready to go. No need to go to the powder room first............. Not trying to be a dick, I just don't think pretty matters when it comes to AK........ It's got nothing to do with looks. Just overall feel and what I've found handling the two. Again, I am not complaining and I have no doubt it will run perfectly. I'm grabbing some ammo this weekend and will be hitting the range. I didn't want a pretty rifle, just the opposite. And, as far as my Saiga goes I don't try to baby it either. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Garys4598 1,065 Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) Edit-want some examples of top quality builders across a wide variety of platforms, check out Gary's^^ posts and probably gallery. He's got a long track record on picking top builders that are usually weapon specific. Why that's the nicest comment anyone here has ever made about me 6500rpm. I should name my third-born after you. Alas, I have removed the majority of the photos of my firearms from my personal photo gallery. Edited June 4, 2015 by Gary 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DLT 1,646 Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 In reference to this, I pulled my sgl, slr, norinco, and yugo out earlier to take some side by side pics of the bolt contact points. While hand cycling, the slr was smooth as glass followed by the sgl which was pretty smooth but the spring is definitely heavier. The norinco was nice, but can hang up if pulling up and back since it sort of wants to jump the rails, but the yugo is just rough. If I cycle it slow, it will always stop on the hammer hump. If I just pull back and release no problem. Looking at the bottom of the bolts, the yugo is the roughest. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pyzik 597 Posted June 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 Took this shot while I had it out cleaning. I should have taken a shot of the my .223's BCG with it but didn't think about it at the time.Again, tooling marks are not exactly a quality issue if the rifle functions fine. Just something noticed. Parts by David Pyzik, on Flickr WASR Wear by David Pyzik, on Flickr 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DLT 1,646 Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 Yugo, Russian, Bulgarian, and Chinese bolt carriers. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DLT 1,646 Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 Note the geometry differences on the bottom of the bolt carriers. The Yugo has a rounded start and then transitions into a large flat spot. I think this is why this bolt carrier tends to bind up more often. The Russian has great geometry and angles designed to help it ride over the hammer hump more efficiently. Both the Bulgarian and the Chinese bolt carriers are rounded through the whole length so as to minimize the surface area of contact with the hammer but still function smoothly. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
horatio 515 Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 DLT. Nice pic. But fuck! Take a closer pic or buy a better camera. I believe what you say but I can't make a damn out if those pics! ( except my daughter constantly saying "hello kitty. HELLO kitty. Hello KITTY. HELLO KITTY! " You get the point. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Garys4598 1,065 Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 (edited) DLT. Nice pic. But fuck! Take a closer pic or buy a better camera. I believe what you say but I can't make a damn out if those pics! You get the point. Place your computer cursor over the image, and click (or double-click). The friggen image will appear in a sub-window, four-times its size, ya friggen "Technically Competent" NOT. Edited June 5, 2015 by Gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DLT 1,646 Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 (edited) Edited June 5, 2015 by DLT 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 worth noting that the Russian carrier is a completely different design than the other AK/AKM carriers - AK-74 and AK-100 series have a differently profiled "ramp" at the bottom of the carrier, as well as different FCG geometry to match it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DLT 1,646 Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 Does anyone have pics of a c39v2 bolt carrier. I hear they are machined to darn near perfection with almost zero marks on them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 Does anyone have pics of a c39v2 bolt carrier. I hear they are machined to darn near perfection with almost zero marks on them. Probably because they are cast. I don't know, I'm just trash talking. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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