macgyverhk 3 Posted April 29, 2007 Report Share Posted April 29, 2007 Is it alot of bark but not bite? How is it possible to get decent muzzle velocity when it takes over a foot for all the powder to burn? Believe me, I want to be a believer but I have my doubts as to the 8" conversion's practibility. I see it can shoot through paper but can I stake my life on it stopping an attacker at 25 yards or more? The flip side of the argument is: Will an elongated choke tube resolve these issues and make it convertible as well as practicable as a hunter? Just looking for your thoughts! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mccumber1916 1 Posted April 29, 2007 Report Share Posted April 29, 2007 Is it alot of bark but not bite? How is it possible to get decent muzzle velocity when it takes over a foot for all the powder to burn? Believe me, I want to be a believer but I have my doubts as to the 8" conversion's practibility. I see it can shoot through paper but can I stake my life on it stopping an attacker at 25 yards or more? The flip side of the argument is: Will an elongated choke tube resolve these issues and make it convertible as well as practicable as a hunter? Just looking for your thoughts! if you use 3inch magnum 00buck you'll have 15 30cal balls per shot and the spread at 25 yards... 10 round mag.... that a wall of lead what's not to trust? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macgyverhk 3 Posted April 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2007 (edited) I can throw a rock at you 3" round and it may hurt like hell when it hits but thats not going to stop an armed attacker. Bullets are dangerous not because of their size but primarily due to the velocity. I was wondering if anyone had some real numbers IE: ft/sec. What good is a wall of lead if there is no penetration. I want to do the conversion, just not convinced it is the way to go. Edited April 29, 2007 by macgyverhk Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SuAside 2 Posted April 29, 2007 Report Share Posted April 29, 2007 hard to clock buckshot, since you're more likely to clock the wad and not the buck. i'm guessing slugs are more reliable for clocking (but i dont have any info on that). i remember someone posting figures for buck, but it was inconsistent, and hence i think he was clocking the wads and not the buck... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macgyverhk 3 Posted April 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2007 Good to see someone understands the question. Thank you. I just wonder if the lack of muzzle velocity is what caused the Florida PD to decide to stick with their 870's rather than the 8" conversions. Believe me, I want a Krink sized shotgun just not so sure the Physics agree. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ArcFault 4 Posted April 29, 2007 Report Share Posted April 29, 2007 why not go 10" or 12", its still alot shorter than 18" and you get more powder burn, that is, if its even an issue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macgyverhk 3 Posted April 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2007 True, I'm now thinking along the lines of a 12-14" barrel. But that doesn't answer my question. Remington came out with a factory modular system a few years back for law enforcement. It consisted of the following: 10" breacher barrel 14" entry barrel 18" general purpuse I'm sure they put some thought in to this kit, which has been adopted and is in active service. So is the 8" barrel too short to be effective, or in other words does it have an ineffectual terminal velocity? If so would a barrel extension such as the newly designed tromix surpressor increase the terminal velocity by allowing more time for the gasses to burn? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macgyverhk 3 Posted April 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2007 Are we being foolish in pursuing 8" krink type saigas? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SuAside 2 Posted April 29, 2007 Report Share Posted April 29, 2007 well, maybe you should ask Tony Rumore (if he has time to answer that is, the man is working himself to death ). he's the authority on these shortbarreled shotties. i also did some digging for you, but i couldn't find the post regarding the numbers, however i did come across a post discussing 19" vs 22" vs 24". appearantly it is stated there that the difference is 7 fps for each extra inch. the same formula is probably not valid for the 8" (since the graph is probably a parabole). either way, i've never heard any owner of a 8" whine about the power of their little toy... personally, i'd never go below 12", but that's simply because i dont see the use of going smaller than that. sorry that i could help you more. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
iptuous 0 Posted April 29, 2007 Report Share Posted April 29, 2007 J. Zimba mentioned on a different forum that he was planning on doing a destructive test to answer just such a question by cutting the barrel of a sacrificial shotty bit by bit and testing muzzle velocity at each length. havent heard about any results yet. as for clocking the wad, i would think that it wouldn't be an issue if your mesuring right at the muzzle, since it hasn't expanded had the aero drag slow it down yet?? (total guess on my part. havent ever really worked with a chrono, and don't know how quickly the wad expands and slows...) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted April 29, 2007 Report Share Posted April 29, 2007 I just wonder if the lack of muzzle velocity is what caused the Florida PD to decide to stick with their 870's rather than the 8" conversions. Florida probably went with the 870 for the price. Most of the time a government agency "almost" always go with the cheapest prices. Tony told me once that you loose about 100fps for every 4 inches you remove. I'm not sure what his starting length was for the numbers. I doubt this could be completely accurate for the full length of the barrel. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macgyverhk 3 Posted April 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2007 I did send an email to tony and hope he will be willing to hime in here. My thinking is the longer the barrel the more room for the powder to burn. So would a barrel extention work o increase the velocity? If this is true we can have the best of both worlds. The other argument is that todays powders burn much faster and lengh is not as big an issue so long as you can still choke the barrel. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macgyverhk 3 Posted April 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2007 If one goes with the 12" barrel would the gas tube still need to be shortened? Would the saiga work as reliably with a 12" barrel as that of the factory length barrel leaving the gas tube in its stock position? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted April 29, 2007 Report Share Posted April 29, 2007 (edited) I did send an email to tony and hope he will be willing to hime in here. My thinking is the longer the barrel the more room for the powder to burn. So would a barrel extention work o increase the velocity? If this is true we can have the best of both worlds. The other argument is that todays powders burn much faster and lengh is not as big an issue so long as you can still choke the barrel. There is a "sweet" length for any barrel of any gun. Go to long and you will start to loose power as well. Same with a rifle. Also the longer a barrel the more vibration there is to throw the shot. I'm not sure about the extension but you would think it would. Tony shortens the gas chamber for the 12 inch also. You don't nessesarilly have to though for a 12inch barrel. Edited April 29, 2007 by Mike Davidson Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted April 29, 2007 Report Share Posted April 29, 2007 Here are the numbers as tested by board member Caspian. Remington 1oz slugs 31" 1557fps 25" 1498fps 19" 1411fps 13" 1324fps 7" 1131fps Theoretically an 8" barrel would do about 1170fps. So, if you were shooting double aught buck, it would be similar to getting hit by a whole pile of 9mm. Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macgyverhk 3 Posted April 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2007 Would using a barrel extension be feasable in increasing the velo0city and controlling the pattern (if it was threaded for a choke) Can we have a modular 8" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macgyverhk 3 Posted April 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2007 Here are the numbers as tested by board member Caspian. Remington 1oz slugs 31" 1557fps 25" 1498fps 19" 1411fps 13" 1324fps 7" 1131fps Theoretically an 8" barrel would do about 1170fps. So, if you were shooting double aught buck, it would be similar to getting hit by a whole pile of 9mm. Tony Would using a barrel extension be feasable in increasing the velo0city and controlling the pattern (if it was threaded for a choke) Can we have a modular 8" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macgyverhk 3 Posted April 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2007 (edited) Would it then be feasable to take our 8" tromix's out skeet shooting or possibly hunting Tony? Say 12" extension tube with a choke? So next question has to be, can you build the extension and make it work? Do you think it could work with slugs too? Edited April 29, 2007 by macgyverhk Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted April 30, 2007 Report Share Posted April 30, 2007 Yes it could be done. Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
whatmanual 44 Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 (edited) Nobel Sport Law Enforcement Buckshot... 12 gauge 2 3/4 1290 FPS 00 Buck (12 pellets) Based on Tony's numbers: 19" 1411fps 13" 1324fps (-87 from a 19" already factored in) 7" 1131fps (-193 from a 13" already factored in) You should be getting 19" 1290 13" 1203 (-87 from a 19" already factored in) 7" 1010 (-193 from a 13" already factored in) ....Now if tony can get the specs on the Silencer muahahah... that = subsonic (about 1120 fps). A silencer actually increases velocity a little bit since it is longer, but if its close to 1010 (or less with different brands that clock around 1200 or less starting stat) then its possible I think. Interesting thoughts though. ~Steve Edited May 1, 2007 by whatmanual Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mccumber1916 1 Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 Nobel Sport Law Enforcement Buckshot... 12 gauge 2 3/4 1290 FPS 00 Buck (12 pellets) Based on Tony's numbers: 19" 1411fps 13" 1324fps (-87 from a 19" already factored in) 7" 1131fps (-193 from a 13" already factored in) You should be getting 19" 1290 13" 1203 (-87 from a 19" already factored in) 7" 1010 (-193 from a 13" already factored in) ....Now if tony can get the specs on the Silencer muahahah... that = subsonic (about 1120 fps). A silencer actually increases velocity a little bit since it is longer, but if its close to 1010 (or less with different brands that clock around 1200 or less starting stat) then its possible I think. Interesting thoughts though. ~Steve would the "can" also act as a choke? the damned clays won't hear it coming Quote Link to post Share on other sites
quinci956 1 Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 Nobel Sport Law Enforcement Buckshot... 12 gauge 2 3/4 1290 FPS 00 Buck (12 pellets) Based on Tony's numbers: 19" 1411fps 13" 1324fps (-87 from a 19" already factored in) 7" 1131fps (-193 from a 13" already factored in) You should be getting 19" 1290 13" 1203 (-87 from a 19" already factored in) 7" 1010 (-193 from a 13" already factored in) ....Now if tony can get the specs on the Silencer muahahah... that = subsonic (about 1120 fps). A silencer actually increases velocity a little bit since it is longer, but if its close to 1010 (or less with different brands that clock around 1200 or less starting stat) then its possible I think. Interesting thoughts though. ~Steve would the "can" also act as a choke? the damned clays won't hear it coming I have two Saiga twelves that shoot low recoil buck shot without any problems (both have been altered to original AK configuration the way God intended). My buddy has two (one altered and one original) and his will not function with the low recoil law enforcement buckshot. Anybody got any suggestions on where to start. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mccumber1916 1 Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 i suggest you start cheap... every saiga has it's own prefference so go cheap and experiment mine loves federal ammo... some don't Lawman 00buck is popular... but i think it's getting discontinued Quote Link to post Share on other sites
whatmanual 44 Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 I prefer the lawman buck now since I fixed my agp mag issues. Essentially the stats (1290fps) and having 12 pellets in front of that power is a plus. But to be really honest...I like the brands that come in boxes of "10". Not 5, not 15. Federal and sometimes Winchester slugs come in box of 10, so thats nice. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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