TEAM SAIGA at West Point

[topmaul 42]

http://www.usma.edu/dmi/3-gun_match.htm It would be cool to show up in force to this match but crossing into the Peoples Republic of New York with evil weaponry could be interesting for local law enforcement.

[GTwannabe 1]

You might be able to do it... NY does make exceptions for bringing unregistered handguns into the state for use in sanctioned shooting competitions. The same provision might also apply to "assault weapons" owned legally outside NY.

 

West Point is Army jurisdiction anyway, so in theory that should trump any state regulations. I would suggest emailing the organizers with pictures and descriptions of the weapons you intend to use. If you get permission in writing, you should be covered legally.

 

For transport into/out of NY, follow the unregistered handgun provision: weapon stored in trunk, unloaded, in a locked case, with ammo separate. Only take the gun out while at the match. Use common sense... don't drive 35mph over the speed limit. Leave the 5lb brick of marijuana at home. Move the blood stained machete off the passenger seat. Refrain from waving firearms at state police, etc.

[Ronswin 26]

If you cannot use "steel jacketed" ammo as according to the rules, that will effectively elimanate most of the Wolf ammo and certainly any 5.45 russian rifle ammo (my favorite). It looks like it's geared specifically to bar AK rifles to me if you can't use that ammo.

[topmaul 42]

now Ron, it would take a lot of explaining if an AK won the match, at West Point. the way I figure it, that 125 rounds of shot gun ammo needed will really give team Saiga a serious lead. I plan to tread Eric's barrel for a muzzle break today. Once that is done his match Saiga .223 will be ready for West Point.

[Ronswin 26]

now Ron, it would take a lot of explaining if an AK won the match, at West Point. the way I figure it, that 125 rounds of shot gun ammo needed will really give team Saiga a serious lead. I plan to tread Eric's barrel for a muzzle break today. Once that is done his match Saiga .223 will be ready for West Point.

 

If you guys decide to go let me know as it may be the push I need to finish my 20 inch Saiga .223 conversion (and I'll back up Eric ). With the new 10 round Saiga 12 mags, there might be some upsets or at least, some heads turned! Could be fun messing with the heads of the future "Army of One" types.

[topmaul 42]

Right now I'm planning on going, I'll attempt to get permissive orders, they give those orders for guys to go to Camp Perry, why not this. At any rate I plan to go up there and be a big suprise.

[inparidel 4]

If you cannot use "steel jacketed" ammo as according to the rules, that will effectively elimanate most of the Wolf ammo and certainly any 5.45 russian rifle ammo (my favorite). It looks like it's geared specifically to bar AK rifles to me if you can't use that ammo.

 

If you are thinking of entering you will be happy to know that Wolf, Barnaul and other commercially available 5.45 x 39 or 5.56 mm Russian projectiles are copper clad, bi-metal and NOT steel, and therefore just peachy. Except for the time and costs of the match, I would enter and if my perfrormance in the Southeast US and FL is any indicator, I would probably do very well with my AK-101 clone (originally a Sagia .223) or even my Romy AK-74 paratroop clone in .223 (originally a SAR3), and my S-12 in the open class, if not win, place or show. And yes, it would raise alot of eyebrows as well as cries of cheating, which is absurd, but they do it alll the time anyway. I actually had one guy that designed an IPSC shotgun stage try and tell me that I had to run the 27 steel COF with one mag and to "stuff" it as I went. He said that because he was not allowing speed loaders on this COF. I told him thhat I am using a Third-World mil-type shotty that was pure stock, and had not one "go-fast" thing on it. The mags are the gun's method of ammo feed, they are not anything like a speedloader, which is an optional method of loading. Box mags ARE the tube, not a speedy method of loading the tube. I also said that if he wanted to see me stuff mags, that he simply had to design a stage that had more than 69 steels. That's how many rounds I have mags for. He fnally backed down.

 

I have seen thiss many times. The 1100, 870 and benellli guys say, "if he's using box mags, I'm using a speedloader." Apples to oranges. Technically a S-12 without optics, and with no more than 9 rds in non-cinched mags SHOULD be able to run in limited class. But the tube guys have a problem grasping this simple concept. LIke I told the guy that wanted me to stuff one mag. . .the solution to any problem he thinks he has with my gun is to simply BUY ONE.

Edited January 5, 2007 by inparidel

[kmoore 3]

Ron, Not everyone is out to get you They have steel targets, so steel ammo is a no-no. They don't want it around at all because grabbing the wrong mag can ruin the day for everyone else, and is not cheap either. Besides, when's the last time your AK beat my AR I've got a new piece of glass on it, and that is going to make me a world class shooter, NO DOUBT heheheheh. Seriously, you need to check it out, I'm liking it a lot.

 

Before everyone gets too excited about the shotgun, did you all notice that starts are ALL 4+1 and shotgun can never be more than 8+1? Not a huge deal, And I'm guessing they are following one of the USPSA class guidelines. IIRC, Open class is limited to 10 and the others slightly less.

 

John, I've written numerous emails about your mags. Have they gotten thru? LMK, I can PM you on this board if that's better.

 

Inparidel, Hope you can come up into our corner of the south sometime? The response is pretty funny, Tactical match is made, first saiga shows up, MD says .... hey, that's a better solution. Hmmmm, better not allow it! This has got to be a lot like when handgunners were transitioning from revolvers to autos. I bet a lot of courses were designed to be 6 shot friendly.

 

But, the stance of mags = speed loaders isn't without precedent. IIRC, USPSA has a formal ruling on that, and MANY matches go by that rule. Makes me want to get one S12 with go fast stuff on it (If they are forcing me to open, then I might as well go whole hog) and one stock one, and use whichever is accepted at the matches.

[SinistralRifleman 0]

If I could afford it, I would be there...maybe in 2008.

[.40AET 0]

Before everyone gets too excited about the shotgun, did you all notice that starts are ALL 4+1 and shotgun can never be more than 8+1? Not a huge deal, And I'm guessing they are following one of the USPSA class guidelines. IIRC, Open class is limited to 10 and the others slightly less.

 

From USPSA shotgun Rules:

 

7. Magazine length restrictions=No

8. Detachable magazines=Permitted

9. Magazine capacity restrictions=No

10. Speed loading devices=Permitted

11. Modifications/attachments to loading port floor

plate=Permitted

12. Compensators=Permitted

13. Ports=Permitted

 

The rules don't have anything to do with USPSA. I registered today for the match. If they won't allow a Saiga in Open without silly restrictions, then I may have to shoot Tactical with something else.

[inparidel 4]

Ron, Not everyone is out to get you They have steel targets, so steel ammo is a no-no. They don't want it around at all because grabbing the wrong mag can ruin the day for everyone else, and is not cheap either. Besides, when's the last time your AK beat my AR I've got a new piece of glass on it, and that is going to make me a world class shooter, NO DOUBT heheheheh. Seriously, you need to check it out, I'm liking it a lot.

 

Before everyone gets too excited about the shotgun, did you all notice that starts are ALL 4+1 and shotgun can never be more than 8+1? Not a huge deal, And I'm guessing they are following one of the USPSA class guidelines. IIRC, Open class is limited to 10 and the others slightly less.

 

John, I've written numerous emails about your mags. Have they gotten thru? LMK, I can PM you on this board if that's better.

 

Inparidel, Hope you can come up into our corner of the south sometime? The response is pretty funny, Tactical match is made, first saiga shows up, MD says .... hey, that's a better solution. Hmmmm, better not allow it! This has got to be a lot like when handgunners were transitioning from revolvers to autos. I bet a lot of courses were designed to be 6 shot friendly.

 

But, the stance of mags = speed loaders isn't without precedent. IIRC, USPSA has a formal ruling on that, and MANY matches go by that rule. Makes me want to get one S12 with go fast stuff on it (If they are forcing me to open, then I might as well go whole hog) and one stock one, and use whichever is accepted at the matches.

 

Brorther, don't I know it. I am picturing a device to speed load the mags or something. Other than that. . .what can be done to our sorry T World pieces of junk (so say my USPSA and IDPA bretheren around here)

 

Where's your part of the South? NC? SC? That seems to pretty popular around here.

[inparidel 4]

Before everyone gets too excited about the shotgun, did you all notice that starts are ALL 4+1 and shotgun can never be more than 8+1? Not a huge deal, And I'm guessing they are following one of the USPSA class guidelines. IIRC, Open class is limited to 10 and the others slightly less.

 

From USPSA shotgun Rules:

 

7. Magazine length restrictions=No

8. Detachable magazines=Permitted

9. Magazine capacity restrictions=No

10. Speed loading devices=Permitted

11. Modifications/attachments to loading port floor

plate=Permitted

12. Compensators=Permitted

13. Ports=Permitted

 

The rules don't have anything to do with USPSA. I registered today for the match. If they won't allow a Saiga in Open without silly restrictions, then I may have to shoot Tactical with something else.

 

LOL!!!!!!!! I knew it! (1) the Army probably don't like them damn commmie guns (as my IDPA bretheren say), and (2) The fear of something that will (A) beat them, and ( that they don't fully understand (how many of the candidates are versed in the use and maintenance of all members of the Kalashnikov system, much less can convert and mod one?) ??? TOO FUNNY!!!!!

 

I love being diferent (especially if it means winning) don't you??

[topmaul 42]

Well starting with a 4+1 mag is no problem I still have a bunch of five round mags some place, I have 8 rd mags as well as a lot of 10 round mags I can down load to 8, it's a stupid rule, but wait till the get a load of us. That rule is unfair to guys with long tubes because they fire five then stuff 8 we fire 5 and rock and lock 8 on a short stage it tends to favor us.

Edited January 5, 2007 by topmaul

[.40AET 0]

I think we need to start sending emails to the match director to lift the 8 round limit. It's just F'n stupid! Open class is just that. Create the fastest, highest capacity setup you can....and let the clay hosing fest begin!!!!!

[inparidel 4]

Well starting with a 4+1 mag is no problem I still have a bunch of five round mags some place, I have 8 rd mags as well as a lot of 10 round mags I can down load to 8, it's a stupid rule, but wait till the get a load of us. That rule is unfair to guys with long tubes because they fire five then stuff 8 we fire 5 and rock and lock 8 on a short stage it tends to favor us.

 

RIGHT ON!!!! WOOO HOOO!!! Yes we WILL, if AN Y of us actually go, and ARE ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE. Feel the pain of DISCRIMINATION!!! Yes I do bro!

Edited January 5, 2007 by inparidel

[glock_forty5 0]

I may just have to go...

[scoutjoe 276]

If ya guys run outta mags I got some I can lend ya on your way through Pa

[kmoore 3]

Loading a mag is going to beat the others most of the time, but with these restrictions they can do a bunch to slow us down.

 

5+1 start really beats us up on a 7 round stage. Stages with 8-10 really evens the field against other open shooters. As for speed loader operators, this allows any who can load 2 sticks as fast as we can load one mag to totally keep up (assumes you never run your shotty dry, it can get worse if you do .....). Now they have the ability to handle select slug drills and they have the advantage on us!!!

 

So, Of course we can compete the stages, but depending on the stage this can actually help the tube fed guns beat us. Also realize that I'm talking about practiced operators, but those are the kind that pay the fee and make the trip.

[kmoore 3]

Before everyone gets too excited about the shotgun, did you all notice that starts are ALL 4+1 and shotgun can never be more than 8+1? Not a huge deal, And I'm guessing they are following one of the USPSA class guidelines. IIRC, Open class is limited to 10 and the others slightly less.

 

From USPSA shotgun Rules:

 

7. Magazine length restrictions=No

8. Detachable magazines=Permitted

9. Magazine capacity restrictions=No

10. Speed loading devices=Permitted

11. Modifications/attachments to loading port floor

plate=Permitted

12. Compensators=Permitted

13. Ports=Permitted

 

The rules don't have anything to do with USPSA. I registered today for the match. If they won't allow a Saiga in Open without silly restrictions, then I may have to shoot Tactical with something else.

 

IIRC, some changes have happened. Can you post your source, I want to check in on this. I don't shoot USPSA 3gun matches, so I don't have it cold.

[.40AET 0]

Can you post your source, I want to check in on this. I don't shoot USPSA 3gun matches, so I don't have it cold.

I copied the rules from the appendix on Open shotguns. It appears in the USPSA shotgun rules book. I copied it from the USPSA website.

 

USPSA Website

Go to the side bar and click "match rules". At the bottom of the page is "2004 Shotgun". The appendix is near the end.

Edited January 6, 2007 by .40AET

[inparidel 4]

Loading a mag is going to beat the others most of the time, but with these restrictions they can do a bunch to slow us down.

 

5+1 start really beats us up on a 7 round stage. Stages with 8-10 really evens the field against other open shooters. As for speed loader operators, this allows any who can load 2 sticks as fast as we can load one mag to totally keep up (assumes you never run your shotty dry, it can get worse if you do .....). Now they have the ability to handle select slug drills and they have the advantage on us!!!

 

So, Of course we can compete the stages, but depending on the stage this can actually help the tube fed guns beat us. Also realize that I'm talking about practiced operators, but those are the kind that pay the fee and make the trip.

 

That's the key. . .against equally skilled tube guys we, skill time for skill time, WILL WIN. . .However, there are Jerry Miculek-type guys out there that can dust my otherwise swift ass. I don't mind losing in a fair fight, it's the unfair ones that really bother me. I say bring on the ringers, that way we can learn from our mistakes. There is no other way to advance the technology, bros.

[kmoore 3]

Can you post your source, I want to check in on this. I don't shoot USPSA 3gun matches, so I don't have it cold.

I copied the rules from the appendix on Open shotguns. It appears in the USPSA shotgun rules book. I copied it from the USPSA website.

 

USPSA Website

Go to the side bar and click "match rules". At the bottom of the page is "2004 Shotgun". The appendix is near the end.

 

You likely know this, but I'm posting what I found.

 

Here's the difference. That manual is for IPSC, the US branch (USPSA) utilizes most of the rules, but there are changes. I'd guess these changes are for the same reason that we have AGP producing 10 round mags that absolutely will not allow 11 rounds, and involve back room conversations with the ATF. I certainly don't know that. But it actually adds stability to the rules if you believe that there will be a 10 round limit on US shotguns someday.

 

Anyways, that same document does have the USPSA changes listed.

 

1. Power factor floor 520

2. Minimum shot weight No

3. Minimum caliber 20 gauge / 20 bore

4. Maximum shotgun weight No

5. Minimum trigger pull No

6. Restriction on action types No

7. Magazine length restrictions No

8. Detachable magazines Yes

9. Ammunition capacity restrictions Maximum of 11rounds loaded,Max.of 10 in the case of Rule 8.1.1.2

10. Speed loading devices Yes

11. Compensators Yes

12. Ports Yes

13. Optical or Electronic sights Yes

14. Max. distance of cartridges or reloading devices

from body

No

15. The use of bipods and similar allowed Yes

16. Modifications allowed Yes

17. Factory produced guns only No

 

BTW, Rule 8.1.1.2 is an empty chamber start.

 

The standard division allows 9 rounds loaded max, 8 with 8.1.1.2

 

 

Loading a mag is going to beat the others most of the time, but with these restrictions they can do a bunch to slow us down.

 

5+1 start really beats us up on a 7 round stage. Stages with 8-10 really evens the field against other open shooters. As for speed loader operators, this allows any who can load 2 sticks as fast as we can load one mag to totally keep up (assumes you never run your shotty dry, it can get worse if you do .....). Now they have the ability to handle select slug drills and they have the advantage on us!!!

 

So, Of course we can compete the stages, but depending on the stage this can actually help the tube fed guns beat us. Also realize that I'm talking about practiced operators, but those are the kind that pay the fee and make the trip.

 

That's the key. . .against equally skilled tube guys we, skill time for skill time, WILL WIN. . .However, there are Jerry Miculek-type guys out there that can dust my otherwise swift ass. I don't mind losing in a fair fight, it's the unfair ones that really bother me. I say bring on the ringers, that way we can learn from our mistakes. There is no other way to advance the technology, bros.

 

My point is that they've got it where COF can easily make equally skilled Saiga shooters loose to all tube fed shotguns. shooters. The obvious stage would be a 7 round one. Head to head against tube fed open shooters is less obvious, but these rules allow COF that remove some small advantages that otherwise would have.

 

Amen to being different. If Saiga's become common, I just might have to finally buy that USAS12 I've always dreamed about .... and spring for the 20 round drum to boot!

Edited January 8, 2007 by kmoore

[.40AET 0]

Sorry. I tend to be hasty at work trying to post information while working. I posted the wrong appendix.

[inparidel 4]

(assumes you never run your shotty dry, it can get worse if you do .....). Now they have the ability to handle select slug drills and they have the advantage on us!!!

 

That's why the factory BHO is SO important. Count rounds and knuckle up on the BHO and you have a quasi LRBHO. It makes high-cap S-123 mag changes MUCH faster.

 

So, Of course we can compete the stages, but depending on the stage this can actually help the tube fed guns beat us. Also realize that I'm talking about practiced operators, but those are the kind that pay the fee and make the trip.

 

The so-called "slug select" stages CAN be done by using the BHO, but I must say that tube guns can do this as fast, or usually fater than we can, even with the help of the factory BHO.

[glock_forty5 0]

Entry sent. Woo hoo! Now to practice practice practice...

[topmaul 42]

So who is coming?

[747mech 1]

If you cannot use "steel jacketed" ammo as according to the rules, that will effectively elimanate most of the Wolf ammo and certainly any 5.45 russian rifle ammo (my favorite). It looks like it's geared specifically to bar AK rifles to me if you can't use that ammo.

Draw and quarter me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure they are referring to steel-jacketed bullets, not steel shells. No armor-piercing ammo. I haven't seen a range proscribe Wolf, just Chinese steel-core ammo, which is just plain dangerous.

[inparidel 4]

If you cannot use "steel jacketed" ammo as according to the rules, that will effectively elimanate most of the Wolf ammo and certainly any 5.45 russian rifle ammo (my favorite). It looks like it's geared specifically to bar AK rifles to me if you can't use that ammo.

Draw and quarter me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure they are referring to steel-jacketed bullets, not steel shells. No armor-piercing ammo. I haven't seen a range proscribe Wolf, just Chinese steel-core ammo, which is just plain dangerous.

 

 

+1

[topmaul 42]

I guess the thing to do is to e-mail the match director and ask about Wolf ammo. I fully understand why they don't want AP or tracers.

[glock_forty5 0]

So who is coming?

 

 

My entry is in. .40AET and I are shooting on Saturday.

 

G45