Saiga vs VEPR in 308

[glitch308 0]

Hi folks, this is my first post ever, anywhere. Hope I'm doing it right.

 

I've been looking for an autoloader in 308 and had considered the Cetme, FAL and G3 when someone mentioned the VEPR. I'd never heard of it but everything I found on the 'net sounded great: MOA accuracy and flawless reliability at a reasonable price. Then I heard about the Saiga and found you guys. Here's the question: The VEPR is built on the 50% thicker RPK receiver. The Saiga is also built on a thicker stamped receiver. Both rifles feature a hammer forged, chrome lined barrel. The VEPR is far more accurate. Why? Can the Saiga be reworked to produce those same 1" groups?

 

I have an SKS with a compensator from TAPCO that totally eliminated muzzle rise. I see talk of muzzle brakes everywhere, but no one mentions compensators. Does the average brake also hold the muzzle down?

 

When I go to the range, I take a couple dozen stripper clips full of 7.62x39. While others are removing, reloading and replacing their magazines, I just slide in another ten rounds and keep firing away. I know next to nothing about the internals of an AK. Could one be modified to use stripper clips? Sure would be nice...

 

I'm planning on a 22" barrel rifle with custom woodwork to resemble the ROMAK. I can do the woodwork, and I'll need a gas tube with the bracket to hold the front of the upper handguard, but will need to weld a bracket to the barrel to hold the lower handguard. Welding on the barrel makes me more than a little nervous. Has anyone done this?

[thinking 1]

First let me say welcome.

A saiga is built like an AK. The receiver is not like the vepr thicker receiver (actaully a RPK reciever). The vepr is made in a different russian plant than the saiga. I believe the vepr is from Molot and the saiga from Izshmash. You can see alot more attention to detail on the vepr but I do not think a vepr is really a MOA gun. From that I have seen (actual targets) it is more like between 1 to 2 MOA with the proper ammo. I think Robinsons is the only importer of veprs. They sell them more than I think they are worth. (IMO)

I can see no way to make a saiga or any AK type guns use stripper clips. The gas piston runs directly over the breach but if the saiga is "converted" you could use high cap mags.

As far as reworking a saiga to shoot 1" groups? It is sure not going to do it "out of the box". I am trying to get my 223 version to do that but I am getting a little more "drastic" to do it. My next step is the reinforce the barrel with a carbon fiber composite.

Muzzle brakes come in many flavors. You can get some that have more holes on the top than the bottom to reduce jump.

 

Later

[BattleRifleG3 16]

VEPRs generally get MOA as a rule. Saigas are good, but whether it's 2moa or sub-moa is luck of the draw. There are ways to improve it, but for the money it would cost to make the Saiga as accurate as the VEPR, might as well geta VEPR. G3s are good buys and can be accurate. If you want the king in certain 308 accuracy, the AR-10 is the absolute way to go, with the M1a as a close second for more money.

[vjor 2]

[mrapathy2000 0]

rpk receiver and reinforced trunions. saiga receiver is thicker than typical ak and front trunion is receinforced some its also cut some.

 

vepr has the reinforcements where it counts and then some.

[glitch308 0]

Thanks for the advice, everyone. For me, now, Saiga is the way to go. There's a gun show this weekend. I'll be there with cash in hand. I'll let ya know.

[glitch308 0]

Well, a friend and I went to the gunshow, he bought a Saiga 308 w/16" barrel for $229. I saw two 22" barrel 308s, one was $189, the other $350!! I think I can do better, but if not $189 aint bad for a 308 semi-auto...

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Oh my freakin golly...

 

$189 for a Saiga 308??? That's a freakin steal. You'd better get that now. $229 was freakin good, $350 believe it or not is normal, but I could certainly do better (and I did).

 

I'm telling you, get the $189 one, of course inspect in to make sure there isn't something tragically wrong with it. Unless it looks like it could catastrophically fail, that's a good price.

 

I'd almost pay that price for a parts set minus receiver. I eventually hope to make a bullpup out of one.

[glitch308 0]

Oops. Typo. It was $289 for the 22". I'd have bought a dozon for $189.

I now regret passing on the $229 16-incher; I knew it was a good price at the time, but had 22" on the brain. From this site and others, I'm getting the idea that the 16 inch Saiga is actually more accurate than the 22" due to a short barrel being stiffer.

Now the question is: How much velocity do you lose with the shorter barrel? Does anyone have any actual data on the difference in muzzle velocity between 16 and 22 inch Saigas? From what I've found on the net, you lose about 10 FPS per inch of barrel length. Frankly, that 10 FPS seems low to me, and I doubt it's a purely linear function. Velocity is what attracted me to the 308 in the first place. Ballistics tables I have seen show 308 velocity within 100FPS of a 30-06 for all comparable bullet weights, at all ranges. That's impressive. How much of that do I give away with a 16" barrel?

[metroplex 0]

The AR10 is way overpriced IMHO. If you think $550 for a VEPR is too expensive... I don't see how $1500+ for a 0.308" version of an AR-15 is inexpensive. Yes I know the upper and lowers are supposed to be different. Tighter/match grade perhaps? Why didn't they do that with the AR-15 lower? It's all machined anyhow. Vendors nowadays act like CNC machining is a mystical voodoo bag of tricks where you NEED to spend a sh*tload of money to get something done right. I see this trend with car parts as well. $200+ for a stupid upper intake elbow that probably cost $10 in bar stock/cast materials and maybe $15 in labor for CNC operation and $175 price markup? sheesh.

 

All you need is a competent machinist (which is almost non-existent with today's stream of high school drop-outs taking over cheap machining jobs and don't even get certified in half the stuff they do, companies laying off quality hard-working machinists in favor of cheaper useless stoners that push buttons and pretend to be machinists), a good CNC machine (most initial cost goes to this), and the right materials.

 

If you have the tooling to make quality AR-15 lowers and uppers - I don't see how you can justify a 100% price increase to shoot another caliber of ammo through the same style of rifle. I can see how the extra cost goes into the upper: the barrel and chamber are very important - but from what I heard, the AR-10 lowers are even different and supposed to be "Better" and different than the AR-15 lowers. Better as in more expensive perhaps? Or "Better" as in telling the CNC machine to do a few more cycles to smooth out the machining and slap "MATCH GRADE" everywhere on the rifle and advertisements to justify the price increase?

 

I know the AR-10 is a fine rifle, as is the SR-25... same with the M1A. The M-14 was my dad's favorite rifle in the military. What's not to like?

 

The VEPR II 0.308 is a battle rifle that is capable of 1 MOA with the right ammo and a good shooter. That's a great combination if you ask me. Of course if you're looking to shoot long range competition (like, sub-MOA at 600 yd or something), don't get the VEPR. If you're like me and want something half-way accurate, cheap and easy to shoot, easy to maintain, and very reliable when properly maintained - get the VEPR. The Saigas are fine rifles as well - I never liked doing conversions myself... but whatever floats your boat!

 

The VEPR Ks in 7.62x39, OTOH, are a different beast altogether - these are the ones that can do about 1.5-2MOA with the right ammo. The VEPR IIs shoot a little tighter.

 

Then there's the 5.45x39 and .223 versions that shoot fairly tight as well.

 

My recommendation about the VEPR: find the caliber you want (except for 5.45x39) and get the 20" barrel (VEPR II). It's not that I dont like the 5.45x39 caliber, its because there's no 20" barrel version available.

Edited September 21, 2004 by metroplex

[Siagalova 0]

Really, if you want sub moa get a bolt action rifle! I've got my eye on a remy 700 tacticle, OR for a little less money, get the savage! the battle riffles, besides the HK psg1 (my local gun shop had one for $20,000, sweeeeeet!!), can't be like that! it's impossible! I don't care what the armalite people say!! (you can tell I don't know anything about them, they're extremely over rated in this country!). a battle rifle gives up accuracy for function, that's that - end of story! what's a an inch when shooting a chest sized target!

If I can hit a beer bottle at 100 yds, my gun is doing it's job! love these guns, for the price it's the best out there!

[glitch308 0]

Thanks for the feedback. I bought a 16" 308 for $269, and I'm fairly happy with it.

 

There's a thing about stuff I call "two out of three ain't bad". It comes from quantum mechanics. You can know the position of a particle, the velocity of a particle and the direction of a particle, but you can't know all three at the same time. When I built sailboats, it was "You can have a cheap boat, a fast boat, a strong boat, but not all three." With rifles, I guess it's "You can have a cheap rifle, an accurate rifle, a reliable rifle, but not all three." The ARs are most accurate, fairly reliable, but not cheap. The Veprs are less accurate, but reliable and less expensive. The Saigas are less accurate still, but reliable and dirt cheap.

 

I'm happy with my choice, but I still wish I'd bought the 22" barrel. That's the good thing about cheap. I can afford another.

 

Hope I haven't bored you.

[Siagalova 0]

Here, here! I like that explanition!

 

I also love the diversity we get on this forum! From A-holes like me, to engineers! the joy to shoot up stuff, is universal isn't it!

[dontmesswithmygun 0]

saigailova has it right I have a Saigai, m1a, ar-10, and a g3

I love them all I'd have to say the m1a is the most accurate then the ar-10 the g3 and saigai are about the same but if you want real accuracy buy a bolt action

 

But most of us don't buy saigais and the like for 400 yard shots at prairie dogs out west that what the heavy barrelled varmit rifles are for

 

as a side note if you ever get the chance to go dog shootin GO! Its a blast and no matter what the pros tell you find a good den and your saigai is good enough most shots are around 100 yards

[glitch308 0]

Didn't mean to leave out the m1a, a friend has one and I must say it's one fine, fine rifle. When I think of modern rifle tho, it's gotta have a pistol grip...

Edited September 27, 2004 by glitch308