KyleWeiss 0 Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 *sighs* Hello, all, I'm Kyle Weiss. Let me start out by saying this forum is great. I just love active forums with (at least what seems to me!) to be decent, educated enthusiasts that have great deals of information and opinions to provide. I'm a part of quite a few forums, and love adding a new one to the list. Here's my deal. I'm about to get into a Saiga 12, just waiting on final prices and ordering from my "dealer," and it should be in my hands within the next two weeks. I fell in love with a 20-gauge model on sale at a local "hardware" store here in Reno very recently, and of course, doing some reasearch, lo, I found this forum. I know next to nothing about the 922® compliance laws, whatever restrictions "sunsetted," in 2004, what-have-you, so I'm going to provide yet another irritating post, after I've been on the forum now trying to figure out what I should do for almost two hours now. I'm moderately aware of the "10 items or less" game, as it's known, but being mostly a C&R junkie, I leave most of my arms alone just the way they are. In short, this will be my very first cherry-popping, lead-flinging project. Here's what I want out of my Saiga eventually: -- A nice standard AK-style non-folding stock. -- A nice standard AK-style pistol grip. -- A nice standard 10-round magazine. I don't care if they are Russian or US made, but apparently, the government does. What are my options? What parts are easiest to replace for someone familiar with, say, SKS's and the like if I have to be in compliance? How many parts do I need to replace then, three, following my list above? Which has to be US made? Who's the best source for the parts I need of the few parts websites listed here and ones I've found? Finally, can ANY Saiga/AK parts be used on the Saiga 12 shotguns? I really, really didn't want to make a post like this, and I didn't make a personal private message to any one of you since you all seem to (at least from what I can tell!) know what you are doing, considering some of the really great project outcomes (and ongoing ones) that I've seen! Regardless, the Saiga 12 seems like the toy for me. I know there's an arseload of questions, those willing to take them on without destroying me, I really do thank you. KW Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 You need 3 USA parts. You will have 4 by adding a pistol grip and replacing the stock and trigger group. Also the 10rd mags count as 3 parts all by them self. If you have one of them, it is legal to use in it unconverted. I'm not sure who has the best price on parts online. I know that you can find them all over the place though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KyleWeiss 0 Posted March 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 (edited) You need 3 USA parts. You will have 4 by adding a pistol grip and replacing the stock and trigger group. Also the 10rd mags count as 3 parts all by them self. If you have one of them, it is legal to use in it unconverted. I'm not sure who has the best price on parts online. I know that you can find them all over the place though. See, here's the part that confuses me. What do you mean by 3 USA parts? I need to use a buttstock, a pistol grip and a magazine that are all made in the USA? Or if I install a buttstock, pistol grip and a magazine I need to change 3 OTHER parts to three USA-made parts in addition to? If so, what parts are the best to change, meaning, easiest for a novice? Also, the 10 round magazines count as 3 parts? So what now? As far as finding the parts, I'm only concerned about quality, I'm willing to pay for alright stuff. This stuff is really awful, can't we just have fun anymore? *sighs* KW Edited March 29, 2007 by KyleWeiss Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 You need 3 USA parts. You will have 4 by adding a pistol grip and replacing the stock and trigger group. Also the 10rd mags count as 3 parts all by them self. If you have one of them, it is legal to use in it unconverted. I'm not sure who has the best price on parts online. I know that you can find them all over the place though. See, here's the part that confuses me. What do you mean by 3 USA parts? I need to use a buttstock, a pistol grip and a magazine that are all made in the USA? Or if I install a buttstock, pistol grip and a magazine I need to CHANGE 3 parts to three USA-made parts? If so, what parts are the best to change? Also, the 10 round magazines count as 3 parts? So what now? This stuff is really awful, can't we just have fun anymore? *sighs* KW If you plan to use only 10rd mags you can replace the other parts with any kind you want. The trigger group counts as 2 parts, stock 1, pistol g 1. There is a parts list that was just put up resently. If you run a search for it it probably isn't more than a month old. It will tell all the parts. There are others as well you can make us parts, foregrip, piston...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KyleWeiss 0 Posted March 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 If you plan to use only 10rd mags you can replace the other parts with any kind you want. The trigger group counts as 2 parts, stock 1, pistol g 1. There is a parts list that was just put up resently. If you run a search for it it probably isn't more than a month old. It will tell all the parts. There are others as well you can make us parts, foregrip, piston...... Yeah I found some of your posts while searching, you were telling a guy not to go with a pistolgrip stock because it was unbalanced and whatnot. He was mentioning needing 5 parts, etc, only having so many foreign parts, etc... eech! This stuff is making my head hurt. So, will I be legal buying a US made buttstock, a US made pistol grip, and a US made 10 round magazine? Is that they key, then, buying only the US made parts and everything is hunky-dory? KW Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 If you plan to use only 10rd mags you can replace the other parts with any kind you want. The trigger group counts as 2 parts, stock 1, pistol g 1. There is a parts list that was just put up resently. If you run a search for it it probably isn't more than a month old. It will tell all the parts. There are others as well you can make us parts, foregrip, piston...... Yeah I found some of your posts while searching, you were telling a guy not to go with a pistolgrip stock because it was unbalanced and whatnot. He was mentioning needing 5 parts, etc, only having so many foreign parts, etc... eech! This stuff is making my head hurt. So, will I be legal buying a US made buttstock, a US made pistol grip, and a US made 10 round magazine? Is that they key, then, buying only the US made parts and everything is hunky-dory? KW That guy was getting the shotgun and rifle parts mixed up. You have to have 5 us parts on the rifles and only 3 on the shotguns. The stock he was talking about was the one that you don't move the trigger forward to install. Don't stress it. You said you wanted a non folding ak stock and grip, and with the new trigger group you will have 4 parts there. You would have more than you needed. Add a 10rd and you have 7 us parts total. here are some places that sell what you need: K-VAR http://www.k-var.com/shop/?0=216 BlackJack Buffers http://www.blackjackbuffers.com/ Tapco http://www.tapco.com/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KyleWeiss 0 Posted March 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 That guy was getting the shotgun and rifle parts mixed up. You have to have 5 us parts on the rifles and only 3 on the shotguns. The stock he was talking about was the one that you don't move the trigger forward to install. Don't stress it. You said you wanted a non folding ak stock and grip, and with the new trigger group you will have 4 parts there. You would have more than you needed. Add a 10rd and you have 7 us parts total. here are some places that sell what you need: K-VAR http://www.k-var.com/shop/?0=216 BlackJack Buffers http://www.blackjackbuffers.com/ Tapco http://www.tapco.com/ That's excellent news!!! Thanks so much! Sorry to be freaking out. One last question, will most AK or Saiga (even rifle) parts be compatible with my Saiga 12? Say I find some nice wooden furniture at a gun show, etc... ? KW Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 That guy was getting the shotgun and rifle parts mixed up. You have to have 5 us parts on the rifles and only 3 on the shotguns. The stock he was talking about was the one that you don't move the trigger forward to install. Don't stress it. You said you wanted a non folding ak stock and grip, and with the new trigger group you will have 4 parts there. You would have more than you needed. Add a 10rd and you have 7 us parts total. here are some places that sell what you need: K-VAR http://www.k-var.com/shop/?0=216 BlackJack Buffers http://www.blackjackbuffers.com/ Tapco http://www.tapco.com/ That's excellent news!!! Thanks so much! Sorry to be freaking out. One last question, will most AK or Saiga (even rifle) parts be compatible with my Saiga 12? Say I find some nice wooden furniture at a gun show, etc... ? KW The stock and pistol grip are. But there are some differences in the foregrip compared to the standard ak. Dinzag here on the forum sell a retainer for the saiga-12 to hold the standard ak lower foregrip and is working on one for the top. Check out his stuff here. All his stuff is top notch and he provides everything you need to install his parts, with his parts. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry110152 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KyleWeiss 0 Posted March 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 The stock and pistol grip are. But there are some differences in the foregrip compared to the standard ak. Dinzag here on the forum sell a retainer for the saiga-12 to hold the standard ak lower foregrip and is working on one for the top. Check out his stuff here. All his stuff is top notch and he provides everything you need to install his parts, with his parts. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry110152 Yeah I kind of figured the handguard assembly would be a bit different, but it's good to know someone is making compatible parts! Really can't thank you enough for your patience with my newbie paranoia. KW Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 The stock and pistol grip are. But there are some differences in the foregrip compared to the standard ak. Dinzag here on the forum sell a retainer for the saiga-12 to hold the standard ak lower foregrip and is working on one for the top. Check out his stuff here. All his stuff is top notch and he provides everything you need to install his parts, with his parts. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry110152 Yeah I kind of figured the handguard assembly would be a bit different, but it's good to know someone is making compatible parts! Really can't thank you enough for your patience with my newbie paranoia. KW Right, handguard, not foergrip ! No problem! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KyleWeiss 0 Posted March 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 The stock and pistol grip are. But there are some differences in the foregrip compared to the standard ak. Dinzag here on the forum sell a retainer for the saiga-12 to hold the standard ak lower foregrip and is working on one for the top. Check out his stuff here. All his stuff is top notch and he provides everything you need to install his parts, with his parts. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry110152 Yeah I kind of figured the handguard assembly would be a bit different, but it's good to know someone is making compatible parts! Really can't thank you enough for your patience with my newbie paranoia. KW Right, handguard, not foergrip ! No problem! Err, yeah. That thing. So I guess the next thing I can ask of the forum is, who has a few places with Saiga-12 compatible polymer furniture that will definately fit? I'm entertaining a classic AK-style stock with classic pistol grip but I'm tempted with the idea of a Dragunov style stock/thumbhole/something-or-other too. I'm afraid if I order something in a flash I may be very upset it won't fit properly. KW Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scoutjoe 276 Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Kyle, http://soupbowl.kalashnikov.guns.ru/page12.html its an older link but I like it since its an easy table to see. remember its not the # of US parts that matter, its the # of non-US parts on the gun that matters. So you replace non-US ones with US ones and your non-US parts count goes down and you get legal. http://www.globaltrades.com/ak_stocks.html B-110 is that what your looking for? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bayoupiper 738 Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Kyle, If you want some first class wood furniture for your Saiga then look up BattleRifleG3 on this forum and check out his work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AegisDei 2 Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 (edited) Be sure that if you count the magazines as domestic parts that you have no foreign magazine (5rnd) in the vicinity of the shotgun. Once you change it from sporter to non-sporter, you can't use the originals unless your parts count is independent of the domestic magazines...unless you change 4 parts that are non-magazine related. (PG, Stock, FCG) If you do those parts, then you can use any magazine you like. Edited March 29, 2007 by AegisDei Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Conju 2 Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 The shortest answer that can be given to all of your questions: Buy a US FCG (trigger mechanism) Buy a US pistol grip Use those parts in replacement/addition to the foreign ones and you'll be fine. Truth be told, you'll have a hard time NOT being compliant, as just about anything you buy as far as parts will be US made. As for the buttstock, just get a buttstock for a stamped receiver AK, as long as its not for a yugo or chinese ak you should be fine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KyleWeiss 0 Posted March 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Kyle,http://soupbowl.kalashnikov.guns.ru/page12.html its an older link but I like it since its an easy table to see. remember its not the # of US parts that matter, its the # of non-US parts on the gun that matters. So you replace non-US ones with US ones and your non-US parts count goes down and you get legal. http://www.globaltrades.com/ak_stocks.html B-110 is that what your looking for? Actually there's a few things on that globaltrades.com page that look fantastic!!! Thanks!! B-110 looks excellent! Yeah thanks for the tips on the US-Non-US thing... I think I'll be okay from what I understand now. I could probably even get away with a few import parts if I really, really had to get something in particular. I'll just have to be careful and mindful. Thanks!!!!! KW Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KyleWeiss 0 Posted March 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Be sure that if you count the magazines as domestic parts that you have no foreign magazine (5rnd) in the vicinity of the shotgun. Once you change it from sporter to non-sporter, you can't use the originals unless your parts count is independent of the domestic magazines...unless you change 4 parts that are non-magazine related. (PG, Stock, FCG) If you do those parts, then you can use any magazine you like. Yes, now I guess I understand the US-made magazine I desire is a 3-part US made, meaning I would be okay in and of itself. I'm not really planning on using the 2 or 5 round import magazines at all, but thanks for letting me know in case I decided to be silly and have a "backup." I'll just do 2 10 rounders instead. Maybe later if I get some crazy project ideas I can have them around for then, if such a case comes up. Thanks! KW Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KyleWeiss 0 Posted March 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 The shortest answer that can be given to all of your questions:Buy a US FCG (trigger mechanism) Buy a US pistol grip Use those parts in replacement/addition to the foreign ones and you'll be fine. Truth be told, you'll have a hard time NOT being compliant, as just about anything you buy as far as parts will be US made. As for the buttstock, just get a buttstock for a stamped receiver AK, as long as its not for a yugo or chinese ak you should be fine. Great tip, thanks! So no Yugo or Chinese AK parts. Got it. At this point I'm far, far less stressed about compliance, there's so many nice and well-made US made parts at decent prices I'm totally not worried now. You all have helped me greatly. KW Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KyleWeiss 0 Posted March 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Hey just so I can keep my newbieness concentrated in one area... ...I'm getting the feeling reading through posts that if I want to put either an AK pistolgrip and Stock on my Saiga, or even if I want to put a Dragunov skeleton type stock on it, I'm going to have to change the firing control group (If that's what FCG stands for) aren't I? Is this something easy to do, if so? KW Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KyleWeiss 0 Posted March 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...amp;#entry16009 I did find this, but it still leads to a lot of questions... ...will I have to drill my poor Saiga? Ah well, I better learn! Is this the best guide to doing this? I saw some of Cobra's posts and they seem to have more pictures (better for newbies I guess...) How about the FCG's? Should I buy based on price or based upon quality? Once again, any tips? KW Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scoutjoe 276 Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...amp;#entry16009 I did find this, but it still leads to a lot of questions... ...will I have to drill my poor Saiga? Ah well, I better learn! Is this the best guide to doing this? I saw some of Cobra's posts and they seem to have more pictures (better for newbies I guess...) How about the FCG's? Should I buy based on price or based upon quality? Once again, any tips? KW If you want to do the conversion, yes you will have to cut and drill. http://www.cross-conn.com/Saiga_Conversion/ that is "the bible" for rifles but it may be able to give you some tips (better to have more info than not enough) FCGs, get a G2, you can go up in price from there and get something like a red star arms but personally i don't need a match grade trigger on a shotgun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Just wanted to jump in and say COOL avatar Kyle! Robot Monster 3-D! One of the best B flicks EVER!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KyleWeiss 0 Posted March 31, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 If you want to do the conversion, yes you will have to cut and drill. http://www.cross-conn.com/Saiga_Conversion/ that is "the bible" for rifles but it may be able to give you some tips (better to have more info than not enough) FCGs, get a G2, you can go up in price from there and get something like a red star arms but personally i don't need a match grade trigger on a shotgun. Thanks for the link, that should help out a lot! Yeah I don't need any fancy triggers for my screw-around gun. Just one that'll work decent and get the job done, really. I think I saw the G2's on Tapco, if I'm not mistaken... I haven't checked yet so I'll probably correct myself one way or the other... ...thanks for the info! KW Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KyleWeiss 0 Posted March 31, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 Just wanted to jump in and say COOL avatar Kyle! Robot Monster 3-D! One of the best B flicks EVER!!!! I had no other picture available to use for an avatar! I found it amongst my internet image gathering so... I haven't seen Robot Monster in a long time... I have a fascination with them and Blaxploitation films every so often. Film is great. KW Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bugeye 2 Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 You dont need a fancy trigger but it does help to polish the trigger you install. I polished my TAPCO single hook with a dremal and it made a big difference. Nice and smooth! I am sure there are some threads here in the Saiga forum or you can use this tutorial, which is what I used. Pretty photos and easy instructions for dummies like me! http://www.gunsnet.net/Linx310/fcg.htm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KyleWeiss 0 Posted March 31, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 (edited) You dont need a fancy trigger but it does help to polish the trigger you install. I polished my TAPCO single hook with a dremal and it made a big difference. Nice and smooth! I am sure there are some threads here in the Saiga forum or you can use this tutorial, which is what I used. Pretty photos and easy instructions for dummies like me! http://www.gunsnet.net/Linx310/fcg.htm More excellent info! Thank you!!! I'm saving all of these links so if anyone else has any other helpful places I can get to, by all means. This forum is really great!!! Here's another question that has come up while researching the trigger goups: Single hook or double hook? Is one superior or not compatible? What's the difference? KW Edited March 31, 2007 by KyleWeiss Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scoutjoe 276 Posted April 1, 2007 Report Share Posted April 1, 2007 You dont need a fancy trigger but it does help to polish the trigger you install. I polished my TAPCO single hook with a dremal and it made a big difference. Nice and smooth! I am sure there are some threads here in the Saiga forum or you can use this tutorial, which is what I used. Pretty photos and easy instructions for dummies like me! http://www.gunsnet.net/Linx310/fcg.htm More excellent info! Thank you!!! I'm saving all of these links so if anyone else has any other helpful places I can get to, by all means. This forum is really great!!! Here's another question that has come up while researching the trigger goups: Single hook or double hook? Is one superior or not compatible? What's the difference? KW The difference is the hook setup, if you flip your saiga over and look at the trigger as it comes out of the reciever you'll see the square hole with one "cut" going forward (towards the magwell). This is from the one hook (hook is on the trigger and engages the hammer). IF you go with the double hook setup you have to make a second "cut" on the opposite side of the trigger hole. The benifit of having the two hooks is if you ever happen to break one, it can run on the other one (I've never heard of one breaking, but..) the other reason is you now have twice the ammount of contact between the hammer and the trigger (supposed to lighten the trigger pull.) Hopefully I got all that, I'd post a link for you to compare the two but i'm down at my g\fs house on a laptop so I don't have the benefit of having my folder of links Joe Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KyleWeiss 0 Posted April 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2007 The difference is the hook setup, if you flip your saiga over and look at the trigger as it comes out of the reciever you'll see the square hole with one "cut" going forward (towards the magwell). This is from the one hook (hook is on the trigger and engages the hammer). IF you go with the double hook setup you have to make a second "cut" on the opposite side of the trigger hole. The benifit of having the two hooks is if you ever happen to break one, it can run on the other one (I've never heard of one breaking, but..) the other reason is you now have twice the ammount of contact between the hammer and the trigger (supposed to lighten the trigger pull.) Hopefully I got all that, I'd post a link for you to compare the two but i'm down at my g\fs house on a laptop so I don't have the benefit of having my folder of links Joe Ahhh I see. Since I'm still Saiga-less, at least for a week, I'll have to investigate when the beast is actually in front of me. I kind of understand the principle, though... If you can remember that link or to send it over when you're on your own computer, I'd be greatful. It sounds as if the single hook should work just fine for me, though, if it's the part I'm thinking of. I'm not planning on driving the poor Saiga into the ground the first month, anyway, though tempted I might be if they're as fun to shoot as rumored... *ponders* KW Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted April 1, 2007 Report Share Posted April 1, 2007 Single hook will be all you will EVER NEED... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scoutjoe 276 Posted April 2, 2007 Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 Ahhh I see. Since I'm still Saiga-less, at least for a week, I'll have to investigate when the beast is actually in front of me. I kind of understand the principle, though... If you can remember that link or to send it over when you're on your own computer, I'd be greatful. It sounds as if the single hook should work just fine for me, though, if it's the part I'm thinking of. I'm not planning on driving the poor Saiga into the ground the first month, anyway, though tempted I might be if they're as fun to shoot as rumored... *ponders* KW Mongo search,no find linky Single hook Double its hard to tell because of the angle in those shots, if your still confused by friday I can post some actual pictures that will show the difference clearly Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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