Pistol Grip Folding buttstock for non converted SAIGA

[Bob45acp 0]

Has anyone installed one of these on an unconverted SAIGA? I'm considering one because I really don't like the hunting buttstock of my SAIGA. Any feedback would be appreciated, pictures even better!

 

http://www.gilbertsguns.com/Stocks/Saiga/R...a+Folding+Stock

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Man we need to sticky a thread saying clearly that these Russian parts ARE NOT LEGAL to install on unconverted Saigas!

Sorry but this question comes up almost daily. In fact it's right below this one in the .223 section...oh...no wonder

[Koliadko 207]

Man we need to sticky a thread saying clearly that these Russian parts ARE NOT LEGAL to install on unconverted Saigas!

Sorry but this question comes up almost daily. In fact it's right below this one in the .223 section...oh...no wonder

 

 

Sounds like a good idea. If people have to look through page after page, they just give up. Keep it at the top of the page.

[Bob45acp 0]

OK, thanks for the heads up. Would this one be legal?

 

http://www.gilbertsguns.com/Stocks/Saiga/R...letonized+Stock

[johnny79 0]

OK, thanks for the heads up. Would this one be legal?

 

http://www.gilbertsguns.com/Stocks/Saiga/R...letonized+Stock

 

 

i want to know too? i just ordered it, i know folding stock are not legal here in ny but i don't know bout this, i hope it's legal cause mine is coming tommorow

[ssn vet 0]

FBMG will sell you a NIB Saiga with the Russian skeletonized stock (which I do not believe counts as a PG) already one it. So I would imagine this is legal. As long as you don't have a true PG or a high cap mag. I believe you are still in an approved sporter config.

 

I think the combined PG and folder will put you into the "evil black rifle" catagory and thus the 922R 10 imported parts game. And will count as 2 imported parts (butt stock=1 and PG=1)

 

If you wanted to put the imported PG folder on, I think you'd have to swap out five other parts with made in USA replacements......you could do an made in USA high cap (3 parts), fore grip (1 part) and piston (1 part). Then you'd be right @ the 10 import part limit of 922R.

 

Might be just as easy to just do the FCG and PG conversion.

 

I suggest you read a LOT more of what's out there and convince yourself that this is an accurate count, as I"m Mr. AK newby and hardly trust myself.

Edited June 6, 2007 by ssn vet

[soberups 1]

I consider it borderline unethical for these companies to sell folding stocks, hi-cap mags etc. without informing their customers that installation of these parts on an unconcerted Saiga is a 922r violation.

I bought my Saiga brand new at a gun show, and the dealer sold it as a package deal with two modified 30 rd AK mags. I bought them, not knowing any better. I figured that he had an FFL, I passed my instant background check, theres cops walking around at the show, the AWB expired, so no worries. Little did I know.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

I consider it borderline unethical for these companies to sell folding stocks, hi-cap mags etc. without informing their customers that installation of these parts on an unconcerted Saiga is a 922r violation.

I bought my Saiga brand new at a gun show, and the dealer sold it as a package deal with two modified 30 rd AK mags. I bought them, not knowing any better. I figured that he had an FFL, I passed my instant background check, theres cops walking around at the show, the AWB expired, so no worries. Little did I know.

EXACTLY

I have seen vendors at my local funshow do the same thing with those russian folding shortcut stocks and hi cap mags. It also happens on gunbroker all the time.

 

NOT COOL

[Navy87Guy 1]

I consider it borderline unethical for these companies to sell folding stocks, hi-cap mags etc. without informing their customers that installation of these parts on an unconcerted Saiga is a 922r violation.

I bought my Saiga brand new at a gun show, and the dealer sold it as a package deal with two modified 30 rd AK mags. I bought them, not knowing any better. I figured that he had an FFL, I passed my instant background check, theres cops walking around at the show, the AWB expired, so no worries. Little did I know.

 

I've not shopped at fun shows, so I can only imagine what happens there.

 

I will say, though, that most of the "reputable" commercial sites have a disclaimer that puts the responsibility on the buyer to know and understand 922R. I'm sure there are all kinds of legal issues about why they can't be more specific -- which makes places like this forum even more important.

 

I guess the good news is that there don't seem to be too many people dedicated to tracking down 922R violations...which gives people a chance to discover the mistake and get it corrected.

 

Jim

[vzagumennyy 0]

yeah, funshows are either a steal or they rob u blind. gotta love 'em though, and besides....anybody who doesn't know better....DESERVES to get robbed, well ok maybe not, but u gotta look out for yourself. And to the question of the skeleton stock, YES it is legal, ONLY if u still use the low-cap mags. i wonder if there's a way to use it and move it forward, just like a real tiger stock....and then use U.S. FCG and piston and hand-gaurds to make up for it being imported, because really, the "dragunov" stocks they make in the U.S. have been somewhat pathetic, unless it's a custom from battlerifleg3........just a thought.

[Bob45acp 0]

yeah, funshows are either a steal or they rob u blind. gotta love 'em though, and besides....anybody who doesn't know better....DESERVES to get robbed, well ok maybe not, but u gotta look out for yourself. And to the question of the skeleton stock, YES it is legal, ONLY if u still use the low-cap mags. i wonder if there's a way to use it and move it forward, just like a real tiger stock....and then use U.S. FCG and piston and hand-gaurds to make up for it being imported, because really, the "dragunov" stocks they make in the U.S. have been somewhat pathetic, unless it's a custom from battlerifleg3........just a thought.

 

 

What about the Surefire 30 round mags for SAIGA's. They state they are modified in the USA. Would those be illegal?

[Navy87Guy 1]

What about the Surefire 30 round mags for SAIGA's. They state they are modified in the USA. Would those be illegal?

 

Once you add a high capacity magazine, you have to comply with the 922R law. That means your rifle can have no more than 10 foreign-made countable parts. If you aren't familiar with 922R, do a search on the Forum and you'll find plenty of info.

 

So unless you do some other mods to the rifle, using US made 30-rd magazines alone won't put you in compliance.

 

Jim

[NYC.DenseCity 0]

Man we need to sticky a thread saying clearly that these Russian parts ARE NOT LEGAL to install on unconverted Saigas!

Sorry but this question comes up almost daily. In fact it's right below this one in the .223 section...oh...no wonder

 

is it only because its russain made? are there any pistol grips that can be installed on an uncoverted saiga that are legel or do you have to do a full conversion in order to make it legal?

[rdhood 0]

Man we need to sticky a thread saying clearly that these Russian parts ARE NOT LEGAL to install on unconverted Saigas!

Sorry but this question comes up almost daily. In fact it's right below this one in the .223 section...oh...no wonder

 

 

Here is my take...

 

I started looking at this board and trying to figure out the whole imported/922r/etc. The FAQ doesn't do it well. It reiterates the law, which is fine for attorneys and people who know everything there is to know about Saigas. A few posts into the thread , you find a bit more information, and so on, and so on.

 

The Saiga parts count is in a scanned sheet linked to a posting somewhere after the FAQ

 

The FAQ lists typical mods, but not a "Why cant I just swap this one cool part?" type question.

 

So, here is what a SINGLE sticky should cover:

 

1) The law

2) A list of how many of the 20 components are on a Saiga rifle (not just shotgun), and which components those are

3) An explanation of "U.S." made. i.e. not imported, made by USA, can be hand made.

4) A statement that explains that if you make any modification to the off-the-shelf Saiga with any of the evil parts listed in the law (part 1)... even if the evil part is made in the U.S.A or comes from the gun's manufacturer... then you fall under 922r. Changing just one evil part means you have to change enough other parts to get to 10 or less foreign parts.

5) A statement of which U.S.A. parts are available

6) Some examples "Q:Can I add just this pistol grip stock? A: No, because you have added one of the forbidden parts and now fall under 922r, which requires you also change out X number of other parts" "Q: can I add just this high cap Saiga magazine? A: No because you have added one of the forbidden parts and now fall under 922r, you have to change out X number of other parts." Heck, just these last two lines would cut down on most of the "Can I?" newbie questions.

 

ALL INTERVENING CHATTER NEEDS TO BE REMOVED. I.E. the sticky needs to be locked so that a pile of confusing jabber doesn't cloud the issues.

 

 

Currently, none of it is all in the same place, and so it is incomprehensible until someone has been reading for a month and has found all of the applicable discussions. It is all perfectly organized for folks who have been around a while, but newbies go straight to their own group (7.62x39) and ask the question. The FAQ should be listed as a sticky at the top of each of the forums.

 

 

It is really the only way you are going to avoid one of these pistolgrip/buttstock/saiga30rounder questions every single day.

Edited June 8, 2007 by rdhood

[Bob45acp 0]

Man we need to sticky a thread saying clearly that these Russian parts ARE NOT LEGAL to install on unconverted Saigas!

Sorry but this question comes up almost daily. In fact it's right below this one in the .223 section...oh...no wonder

 

 

Here is my take...

 

I started looking at this board and trying to figure out the whole imported/922r/etc. The FAQ doesn't do it well. It reiterates the law, which is fine for attorneys and people who know everything there is to know about Saigas. A few posts into the thread , you find a bit more information, and so on, and so on.

 

The Saiga parts count is in a scanned sheet linked to a posting somewhere after the FAQ

 

The FAQ lists typical mods, but not a "Why cant I just swap this one cool part?" type question.

 

So, here is what a SINGLE sticky should cover:

 

1) The law

2) A list of how many of the 20 components are on a Saiga rifle (not just shotgun), and which components those are

3) An explanation of "U.S." made. i.e. not imported, made by USA, can be hand made.

4) A statement that explains that if you make any modification to the off-the-shelf Saiga with any of the evil parts listed in the law (part 1)... even if the evil part is made in the U.S.A or comes from the gun's manufacturer... then you fall under 922r. Changing just one evil part means you have to change enough other parts to get to 10 or less foreign parts.

5) A statement of which U.S.A. parts are available

6) Some examples "Q:Can I add just this pistol grip stock? A: No, because you have added one of the forbidden parts and now fall under 922r, which requires you also change out X number of other parts" "Q: can I add just this high cap Saiga magazine? A: No because you have added one of the forbidden parts and now fall under 922r, you have to change out X number of other parts." Heck, just these last two lines would cut down on most of the "Can I?" newbie questions.

 

ALL INTERVENING CHATTER NEEDS TO BE REMOVED. I.E. the sticky needs to be locked so that a pile of confusing jabber doesn't cloud the issues.

 

 

Currently, none of it is all in the same place, and so it is incomprehensible until someone has been reading for a month and has found all of the applicable discussions. It is all perfectly organized for folks who have been around a while, but newbies go straight to their own group (7.62x39) and ask the question. The FAQ should be listed as a sticky at the top of each of the forums.

 

 

It is really the only way you are going to avoid one of these pistolgrip/buttstock/saiga30rounder questions every single day.

 

 

Well said, but leave it to lawyers and government officials to really screw things up and make laws confusing and therefore meaningless. As Reagan once said, the scariest words in the English language are, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

 

I give up. I don't even think the right kind of sticky thread could clear up the confusion. It's meant to be confusing, that's what lawyers and the government types are paid to do. Sorry if this offends anyone, but it's the truth.

[Navy87Guy 1]

So let's take a stab at it here.

 

The stock sporter Saiga has 14 parts that are countable under 922R. They are:

1) Receiver

(2) Barrel

(3) Trunnion

(4) Bolt

(5) Bolt carrier

(6) Gas piston

(7) Trigger

(8) Hammer

(9) Disconnecter

(10) Buttstock

(11) Forearm handguards

(12) Magazine body

(13) Follower

(14) Floorplate

 

A "standard" AK has two more - pistol grip and a muzzle device.

 

There are certain features which are considered "evil" and make your rifle subject to 18 USC 922R. They include:

- Pistol grip

- Muzzle device

- High capacity (>10 rd) magazines

- Side folding stocks

The logic is that these kinds of parts are not designed for "sporting" use of the rifle -- so therefore it must really be an assault rifle...and then 922R applies.

 

According to 922R, no more than 10 of the countable parts in a rifle may be foreign-made. So for a converted Saiga (assuming you install a pistol grip) that means at least 5 of the 15 parts must be US. The most common US parts are:

- Fire control group (hammer, trigger, disconnector - 3 parts)

- Pistol grip

- Buttstock

 

Other options include gas tube, magazine floor plates, followers and bodies. You could technically get by with just replacing the FCG and using US-made magazines -- you'd just have to be sure that no one ever used your rifle with foreign-made mags.

 

If you add parts (like the pistol grip or muzzle device) just make sure that you maintain the 10-part compliance.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Jim