Can you, folks, clarify, since you have more knowledge than me.

[Tigerclaw_x 1]

Now, I am really confused. I have not purchased a Saiga or any other rifle in 223 yet. I chose to go with Norinco Hunter in 7.62x39 for 350 dollars because of the milled heavy receiver and 21 inch barrel. I get 3 MOA out of it consistantly. (With Silver Bear ammo). I will buy no more rifles in 7.62x39.

In 7.62x51 Nato I chose to go with C91 for $400. Do not regret my choices yet. I am on the market for FAL rifle.

Now, I am on the market for 223 rifle. My choices are: AR180, SU16, Vector arms V91, Century Arms Galil/Golani, or Saiga.

V91 and Galil cost about the same - 850-900. Arsenals AKs offer no advantage over Galil, while having a SHORTER barrel and costing about the same

AR180 costs about 650, so does SU16. Out of those two, I preffere AR180B, unless of course I can get a super deal on SU16

Now, Saiga 223 costs about 300+ conversion.

The bigest problem is the accuracy. I read this forum quite often. One person complains that he can't get 4" groups with a scope. Another tells us of sub MOA with scope and 3" groups with Iron sights.

Basically, if a rifle has that much variation in accuracy, that raises concerns over the quality control of the rifle. I am very confused now. You see, when it came to C91 or Norinco Hunter I have heard NOTHING but good things.

AR180B also has nothing but good rep. With SAIGA 223, I am now very confused as to what to expect. If it is a 4 MOA rifle, then I am not purchasing it. If it is a 1-2 MOA rifle, then it is definitely a go. Needless to say that I DO NOT expect a 1MOA rifle for a 300 bucks:-)

Oh, and Saiga is not a BATTLE rifle, it is a HUNTING rifle on a base of an Assault rifle, therefore, the expectations from it should be different. So, can someone PLEASE tell me the TRUE figures that I can expect from Saiga 223 with 20.5 inch barrel?

Thank you in advance, and please, forgive me if I asked you, folks a dumb question.

 

Sincerely

[devildog1122 0]

When you purchase Saiga rifle, it should come with grouping of that rifle document in the manual with person's name who did the test fire. I own 3 Saigas, .223,762 and 308 they all very accurate.

 

Test fire from factory at 100m with open sight:

.223 87mm = around 4"

762 90mm = around 4 "

308 102mm = around 4"

 

 

My personal grouping experience with these rifles with open sight is about the same as the facotry. I have never shot Saigas rifle with scope, so I could not tell you how accurate it is with scope. I was in Marines for 8 years and I was always being told that accuracy only as good as the person who shoots it. If I can hit the tennis ball at 100 yards with open sight, then the Saigas are heck of a deal.......

[RedFalconBill 0]

Why would you attempt to shoot for accuracy by using blasting ammo?

 

I built my 16" Mid-Length AR last year and when I test its accuracy I do not shoot Wolf, or any surplus ammo. I shoot Black Hills or Federal Gold Match. When I am going out and practicing my 3 Gun skills (such as they are ) I use Wolf or Silver Bear. Reason? Cost.

 

I bought a 16.3" barrel .223 Siaga last month and am very pleased with it, so far. Still undecided if I will ever convert it.

 

When I zeroed it, I used Black Hills 69 gr BTHP match ammo. After I had it zeroed, I had some fun with it using WWB ammo I got at Wal-Mart along to way to the range.

 

Shooting unsupported prone, my Siaga shoots 10-shot groups 2 3/4" to 3" @ 100 yards, iron sights, using the BH ammo. The same BH ammo gets roughly 1" smaller groups in my AR then my Siaga. I think that this is due to the fact that the trigger on my Siaga is long and stagey (maybe another reason to get it converted?).

 

Once I decide what scope to put on it, I am certain that I can cut the group size. I am also going to bench test the Siaga, once I am done painting the kid's bedroom.

 

With your NORINCO Hunter, what shot goup size are you using? 3? 5? 10? Are you using a rest? Is your Hunter scoped? What scope are you using? Have you tried any other ammo other then Silver Bear? Did you use at least 3 different groups to get a good feel for how the rifle will do with your ammo? Try a large variety of ammo, to include Laupa, Winchester, Remington, and Federal AE, and see what you rifle can do.

 

The AR-180B is not a bad rifle, but Armalite builds it as a 'value' line gun. You might not be pleased with it for the money you will be spending.

 

The SU-16 is not even in the same league.

 

I do not trust Vulcan to build anything worth a damn.

 

Century Arms is well....Century Arms. Not bad, but you can find better if you look.

 

I would not depend upon anectotal evidence as to whether or not to purchase a .223 Siaga.

 

The person who shoots 4" groups with a scope could be using crap ammo and have no bench technique. The other person who shot 1 MOA with a scope could have great technique, or be shooting 3 shot groups, or just got lucky.

 

Buy what you want to and be pleased with your purchase. I know that you are asking for opinions, but at the end of the day it is YOUR money. I can only tell you that my .223 Siaga is nice and that I think it was a great purchase for $279. I am very pleased.

Edited June 22, 2007 by RedFalconBill

[IndyArms 10,186]

Do not ask the Saiga to do what it was not designed to do... I have said this in many posts...

 

If you want a tack driver... buy a 24" heavy barreled AR15 set up to be a varmint gun... or a bolt action .223 from Savage or CZ... Then you will have sub MOA capabilities in the .223 caliber. ( With the right ammo as said above)

 

If you want a .223 plinker... the Saiga will serve you well...

 

It all boils down to "what is your requirements of the rifle" and do you want it to shoot well or just to look cool?

 

[devildog1122 0]

IndyArms, well said, Amen.........

[Tigerclaw_x 1]

Do not ask the Saiga to do what it was not designed to do... I have said this in many posts...

 

If you want a tack driver... buy a 24" heavy barreled AR15 set up to be a varmint gun... or a bolt action .223 from Savage or CZ... Then you will have sub MOA capabilities in the .223 caliber. ( With the right ammo as said above)

 

If you want a .223 plinker... the Saiga will serve you well...

 

It all boils down to "what is your requirements of the rifle" and do you want it to shoot well or just to look cool?

 

[Tigerclaw_x 1]

Do not ask the Saiga to do what it was not designed to do... I have said this in many posts...

 

If you want a tack driver... buy a 24" heavy barreled AR15 set up to be a varmint gun... or a bolt action .223 from Savage or CZ... Then you will have sub MOA capabilities in the .223 caliber. ( With the right ammo as said above)

 

If you want a .223 plinker... the Saiga will serve you well...

 

It all boils down to "what is your requirements of the rifle" and do you want it to shoot well or just to look cool?

 

 

Ok hold on just a minute. I already said that I am looking for a rilfe that can consistantly give me 1.5-2.0 MOA, pretty much like AR180B does according to the specs. (interstingly enough, AR180B according to the spec has same accuracy as standart AR15).

I said that I DO NOT expect a sub MOA accuracy out of $300 rifle. In fact, if I wanted a target rifle, I would get a 22-250 bolt action and then jury rig an M14 mag for it.

I just need to know WHAT I can expect from Saiga223 and HOW MUCH it will cost me to convert it into taking Galil mags

 

that is it.

 

Thank you

[dyi 0]

Do not ask the Saiga to do what it was not designed to do... I have said this in many posts...

 

If you want a tack driver... buy a 24" heavy barreled AR15 set up to be a varmint gun... or a bolt action .223 from Savage or CZ... Then you will have sub MOA capabilities in the .223 caliber. ( With the right ammo as said above)

 

If you want a .223 plinker... the Saiga will serve you well...

 

It all boils down to "what is your requirements of the rifle" and do you want it to shoot well or just to look cool?

 

 

Ok hold on just a minute. I already said that I am looking for a rilfe that can consistantly give me 1.5-2.0 MOA, pretty much like AR180B does according to the specs. (interstingly enough, AR180B according to the spec has same accuracy as standart AR15).

I said that I DO NOT expect a sub MOA accuracy out of $300 rifle. In fact, if I wanted a target rifle, I would get a 22-250 bolt action and then jury rig an M14 mag for it.

I just need to know WHAT I can expect from Saiga223 and HOW MUCH it will cost me to convert it into taking Galil mags

 

that is it.

 

Thank you

 

For just Galil mags you'll need a dremel and a bullet guide from Dinzag (around $25)

For 922r compliance in a pistol grip config: $10 pistol grip, $50 butt stock, $35 trigger group

So for everything, less than $125 depending on how much you get from one place to save on shipping. Check blackjackbuffers.com, tapco.com, k-var.com, dpharms.com

 

Can't answer the accuracy part, I'm still getting mine tuned in.

[JK-47 33]

The accuracy variations are probably the result of a number of factors. Mostly Its the shooter, but its also if they do 3 shot groups, 5 shot groups, 10 shot groups to measure by. Do they shoot indoors or out, wind? Ammo? benchrest/sling/bipod? hot or cold barrel, scope, red dot, iron sights? converted or stock, if converted which FCG? muzzlebreak, flash hider? There are so many variables that it is very hard to compare. If you are happy with 3 MOA I would say the Saiga is a safe bet and a really good deal- and may even shoot a bit better than expected. I recomend an upgraded FCG to help realize accuracy potential. If thats not what you want, then an AR180B would be my next choice. I would personaly steer clear of the SU-16.

[quinci956 1]

The accuracy variations are probably the result of a number of factors. Mostly Its the shooter, but its also if they do 3 shot groups, 5 shot groups, 10 shot groups to measure by. Do they shoot indoors or out, wind? Ammo? benchrest/sling/bipod? hot or cold barrel, scope, red dot, iron sights? converted or stock, if converted which FCG? muzzlebreak, flash hider? There are so many variables that it is very hard to compare. If you are happy with 3 MOA I would say the Saiga is a safe bet and a really good deal- and may even shoot a bit better than expected. I recomend an upgraded FCG to help realize accuracy potential. If thats not what you want, then an AR180B would be my next choice. I would personaly steer clear of the SU-16.

 

I agree with JK-47 on the differnt unknown factors.

You need to find someone that has a Saiga and give it a test drive and decide for yourself. I was a K-9 handler for several years and we used German Shepherds. When asked why we used that breed I explained that the German Shepherd is not the most ferocious biter, pit bulls and rotweillers are probably better in that area. They are not the best tracking dogs. The blood hound is 10 times better on a track. Labrador retreivers make better narcotics detection dogs. When you combine all of the above tasks and need a dog that can do all equally well then the Shepherd is hard to beat because they do all three very well. In my opinion the Saiga is German Shepherd of rifles. It is a good sound, reliable, and accurate rifle

that will not let you down.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Well put madmilo! I've owned all those dogs except the pit and the Shepherd is the best all round dog you can have IMO, Rottie's running a close second.

Tigerclaw get the Saiga. You won't be disappointed. I can shoot 3" groups at a hundred no prob with Wolf or PMC cheap ammo. Scoped it does better than that.

[TonyRumore 1,332]

For what it's worth, I took a pair of stone stock Saiga 223 16" guns and scoped them both with a Leupold 12x Target scope and fired 10ea five shot groups at 100 yards off the bench. That's two sets of groups with 5 different types of ammo. One gun averaged 2.75" and the other averaged 3". I counted all the shots and all the targets.

 

Tony

[TOU 0]

For what it's worth, I took a pair of stone stock Saiga 223 16" guns and scoped them both with a Leupold 12x Target scope and fired 10ea five shot groups at 100 yards off the bench. That's two sets of groups with 5 different types of ammo. One gun averaged 2.75" and the other averaged 3". I counted all the shots and all the targets.

 

Tony

 

Very cool, thx for posting this. It's good enough for me on a $250-$300 ultra reliable firearm even for 2-3x the price. If I want pinpoint accuracy I would be grabbing one of my bolties anyway. Curious...care to post which ammo had the best averaged accuracy?

[TonyRumore 1,332]

Here are the group sizes.

 

Gun 1 Gun 2

Ammo

 

V-Max handload 4.3 2.5

2.5 3.5

 

LOTE 13 Mil. 1.4 3.1

Surplus 2.4 1.7

 

M1A3 Ball 2.1 3.1

2.4 3.4

Hornady

SXSP Handload 3.6 4.6

3.0 4.9

 

Note: Gun 1 with the LOTE 13 ammo did manage 4 shots into .8" but had one flyer out to 2.4"

Gun 1 has been modified to completely free float the barrel, but I have not retested it for accuracy yet.

Gun 2 will be fitted with a Pac-Nor super match barrel and retested shortly.

[GonzoX 0]

FWIW, I have a stock 16" with a Belurus PO 4x24NPZ Scope and I get a 5inch group at 100 yards.

 

I was using budget Wolf military classic 223 ammo.

 

Im not the best shot but I always make my group tighter the more I shoot so I look foward to getting it down to at least a 3 inch group with better ammo at a later date.

 

I got a 3inch group on the same 100 yard range using Czech silver tip 7.62x54r ammo in my PSL rifle as a comparison.

 

And as another comparisson, I took my friend who is an ex-Army SF guy and he shot sub MOA groups with his 30-06 remington pump and he is 70+ years old. Totally blew me away. I shot his rifle from a rest and could not even come close.