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Getting Started in practical shooting


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#1 topmaul

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 08:31 PM

Getting started in practical shooting is not as hard or costly as you may think. Shows like Shooting USA do the sport a dis-service showing top of the line gear and giving the impression that it costs a mint. Yes it does cost some money but what sport does not? I would suggest to anyone who wants to give this a try go for it.

I will post more here later

Well said Jim


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Edited by topmaul, 09 November 2007 - 11:47 PM.

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#2 Navy87Guy

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 09:52 PM

I cut my teeth on USPSA at local club matches. I started with my stock pistols (Beretta 92G Vertec and CZ 75BD) using a good quality (Comp-Tac) holsters. I use Fobus and Uncle Mike's mag poiuches (prefer the UM's for adjustability).

After deciding I liked the sport, I broke down and bought a CR Speed belt. The convenience is great and well worth the $50 I spent.

After a year or so of shooting, I decided to invest in an "upper end" Production pistol and bought a CZ SP-01 with some trigger work by Matt Mink. Did I have to? Nope -- but I wanted to! :D

Other than that, the only money I spend is on ammo and match fees. Now that I've added some rifles and an S12 to my collection, I'm ready to move into 3-gun (next season). I did drop another $75 for a chest rig -- again, could have gotten by a lot cheaper and done just fine.

I guess the bottom line (from my perspective) is that you probably have the gear laying around the garage right now that would let you get started in competitive shooting. How much you eventually spend is completely up to you. Personally, I find the Production division in pistol plenty competitive for me (otherwise I'd already be a Grand Master instead of a C Class shooter!) My S12 is going to put me in the Open category for 3 gun, but I'm not worried about winning. I'm only competing against myself!

A lot of places have finished for the winter, but it's never to late to start planning your first match in the spring. Talk to guys at your local club -- I guarantee they'll be more than willing to help you through your first match. After that, you'll be hooked!!

Jim

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#3 Wakal

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 04:26 AM

As long as you come into the game understanding that you are going to get your ass kicked up between your shoulder blades on the score sheets BUT you are going to meet a bunch of really nice folks who are more than willing to help you understand the rules (in order to shoot safe) and just want to have a good time, you will be fine :)

USPSA is very shooter-friendly, with rules simple, easy to understand, and applicable to everyone.

IDPA is less shooter-friendly, with rules subject to wild interpretation and randomly mutating scores :)

Both are a ton of fun!

Just...and I say this having been to a lot of matches, and having brought a bunch of new shooters to the range, and have seen a lot of crushed egos...do NOT expect to win. The average C-class USPSA shooter is better than 99.999% of the cops and military folks out there, and the Masters/Grandmasters are just scary fast. Getting your clock cleaned by a short, fat, bald guy wearing shorts and hiking boots is pretty ego-destroying to the guy dressed all tacticacool :P Learn from that guy, and his friends, and you too can someday be scary fast.

All the games are just that...games. If the target doesn't reciprocate your engagement with lethal force of its own, it is a game. Learn how to draw, shoot on the move, engage targets at varying distances from odd shooting postions, quickly and smoothly, and don't waste your breath in "...this is real world training." ;)

I loves me all the shooting sports, and have even been known to dress up like a cowboy to play some of the more esoteric varients. They are all fun...but three-gun is the best!


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#4 Paladin

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 03:44 PM

I am going to give the USPSA/ IDPA/ 3 gun stuff a go in the spring. I have a tactical vest with room for mags, but from the pic's I've seen it may not be the set up I need.

Would one of you veterans post descriptions/pics of the rigs you use?

For example, CR Speed Belt? Do you have mag holders then empty mags go into a dump pouch? Whats the "system" you have developed? Number of mags?, etc

I'm not asking for any secrets, just a general "get this and do that" kind of tutorial. It would really help someone like me who has never competed.

BTW, my pistol is a G35, Shotty is S-12 and rifle Saiga x39 (of course :super: ). I've got alot of range time under my belt over the years, and don't embarrass myself at the range/trap stand, but I've only have had the S12 for a few months and picked up the x39 couple of days ago. If there is any tips specific to our favored weapon platform that be appreciated.

I have no grand delusions of competing at a high level, I just want to be as good as I can be with my chosen weapons.

Thanks!

Edited by Paladin, 11 November 2007 - 03:47 PM.


#5 topmaul

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 04:33 PM

Okay, here is a few little tips, first your pistol and shotgun are great choices, I also use a 7.62x39 Saiga, and my son uses a .223 Saiga, one problem you will most likely run into is your ammunition. You see they do a magnet check on your rounds just the projectile if a magnet sticks to it they assume that it has a steel penitrator in it and will harm the targets. Many times the match directors will be very in felxible on it. You can argue till your blue in the face. Ask RonSwin.

What I do is use Walmart Winchester White box x39 I pick up a box or two at a time and use Wolf for stages where I'm just shooting at paper. You might want to get a .223 Saiga because it is more accurate and you can get non-magnetic ammo a lot easier.

I plan to start a thread for tips and equipment after the first of the year I also plan to talk to BlackOps Tactical about becoming a business member and making specialty Saiga stuff. The guy that owns the company used to work in the same building I work in and I have bought a few things from him.

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#6 Wakal

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 05:20 PM

First, keep in mind that I'm lazy. I have to wear battle-rattle at work, so I don't like to do so at play (unless I'm training for something or another). Second, lighter is faster, and even the guys who play Trooper Class don't carry all their gear when they are actually shooting. Third, I hate working harder than I have to.

That said...

I use configurable gear when I play 3-Gun.

One Spec-Ops rigger's belt, well worn and comfortable. My normal pants belt, too ;)

One set of double Blade-Tech mag pouches for a STI on a Tec-lock clip

Two separate Blade-Tech mag pouches for a AR15, each on Tec-lock clips

Two separate Blade-Tech mag pouches for a huge-ass shotgun, each on Tec-lock clips

One Blade-Tech DOH holster (modified for an Open gun)


At each stage, I eyeball what I need and onfigure my belt accordingly. Hey, even Batman sets up specialty gear for each foe :) There is no reason to tote shotgun mags on a rifle course, or to carry a pistol on a rifle/shotgun course (for example), unless the "outlaw" match rules demand it. In USPSA, the "Wakal Rule" allows competitors to swap their gear around between stages. (my own rule...I was so proud...)

For reference, my "pure pistol" rig is a Limcat speed holster on a custom hanger, three modified Safariland 771 (which also fit AR15 mags, by the way) magazine holders spaced out with one in front and two on the side, all on a Safariland two-belt system.

All that said, we have been tinkering with belt hooks for Saiga magazines in order to avoid the issue of mag pouches (since Blade Tech has been promising me Saiga pouches for a year now, and still has my 20 and 12 magazines). My friend Fred came up with a neat (and solid) way to make 4" belt hooks on the bottom/side of the magazines, so they can be hooked into the front/offside pocket as needed. If we can figure out how to make 'em en masse, we will do so. Meanwhile, cutting down the $.99 "G3" magazine pouches (the fugly green rubber ones) works great for Saiga mags if you don't run and jump around so much.

My opinion, and my opinion only...if you are going to shoot courses of fire that have a timer involved, avoid the stuff that has flaps. It just isn't that fast. However, if you already have that sort of tacticool gear, fold the flaps out of the way on the magazines that you know you will need...before you start the course of fire ;)

And...you don't need a bunch of high-speed stuff to play this game. You can tuck magazines in your pockets and call it good :D




Alex

#7 Paladin

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 05:20 PM

From what I know the domestic ammo won't have a problem with the magnet test, (See!! already I learned something. I might have showed up with surplus ammo and been done for the day before I got started!) and its more accurate, so I'll use that and be done with it.

I know the .223 is more accurate, but I didn't buy my guns for competition. In typical SHTF/SD scenarios the x39 has much better penetration. I picked my weapons based on SHTF/SD criteria. I'll use them in competition to improve my skills.

If I really get into it, then perhaps I'll invest in competition focused weapons.

I really am looking forward to this, the videos I've seen look like a blast (no pun intended) One I saw showed guys with strollers (!?) filled with their gear.

#8 topmaul

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 05:45 PM

Comrade,
Best thing to do is go watch a match or two. See what people are using and ask a few questions. I bet you'll want to shoot and be out there shooting at the next match. You don't have to be fully outfitted before you start. Heck some times I stick a few mags in my back pockets and go. Depending on stage design and they are all different.

Good luck.

Edited by topmaul, 11 November 2007 - 05:48 PM.

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#9 Paladin

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 05:48 PM

First, keep in mind that I'm lazy. I have to wear battle-rattle at work, so I don't like to do so at play (unless I'm training for something or another). Second, lighter is faster, and even the guys who play Trooper Class don't carry all their gear when they are actually shooting. Third, I hate working harder than I have to.

That said...

I use configurable gear when I play 3-Gun.

One Spec-Ops rigger's belt, well worn and comfortable. My normal pants belt, too ;)

One set of double Blade-Tech mag pouches for a STI on a Tec-lock clip

Two separate Blade-Tech mag pouches for a AR15, each on Tec-lock clips

Two separate Blade-Tech mag pouches for a huge-ass shotgun, each on Tec-lock clips

One Blade-Tech DOH holster (modified for an Open gun)


At each stage, I eyeball what I need and onfigure my belt accordingly. Hey, even Batman sets up specialty gear for each foe :) There is no reason to tote shotgun mags on a rifle course, or to carry a pistol on a rifle/shotgun course (for example), unless the "outlaw" match rules demand it. In USPSA, the "Wakal Rule" allows competitors to swap their gear around between stages. (my own rule...I was so proud...)

For reference, my "pure pistol" rig is a Limcat speed holster on a custom hanger, three modified Safariland 771 (which also fit AR15 mags, by the way) magazine holders spaced out with one in front and two on the side, all on a Safariland two-belt system.

All that said, we have been tinkering with belt hooks for Saiga magazines in order to avoid the issue of mag pouches (since Blade Tech has been promising me Saiga pouches for a year now, and still has my 20 and 12 magazines). My friend Fred came up with a neat (and solid) way to make 4" belt hooks on the bottom/side of the magazines, so they can be hooked into the front/offside pocket as needed. If we can figure out how to make 'em en masse, we will do so. Meanwhile, cutting down the $.99 "G3" magazine pouches (the fugly green rubber ones) works great for Saiga mags if you don't run and jump around so much.

My opinion, and my opinion only...if you are going to shoot courses of fire that have a timer involved, avoid the stuff that has flaps. It just isn't that fast. However, if you already have that sort of tacticool gear, fold the flaps out of the way on the magazines that you know you will need...before you start the course of fire ;)

And...you don't need a bunch of high-speed stuff to play this game. You can tuck magazines in your pockets and call it good :D




Alex


So for your sidearm you carry 4 extra mags (set of blade tech doubles) besides one in the gun for a total of 5.

3 mags for your AR (2xpouches +1 in gun)

3 mags for Shotgun (2x pouches +1 in gun)

I have skimmed the rules and it looks like I can't use my drop leg holster but mounted on belt only?

Yea, I have the flapped tacticool vest, but it has velcro and molle straps so I can configure it.

I like simple, like your mags with hooks so you don't have to fish anything "out" a pocket.

I wonder if I could just sew on a large swath of velcro on the vest and then put a large piece on each mag. Just rip it off when needed.

#10 Navy87Guy

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 09:23 PM

I've been using this Eagle chest rig from SKD: http://www.skdtac.co....PROD&ProdID=36

It holds 4 rifle mags (AR or AK) plus two pistol mags. The pouches are big enough to hold 4 S12 10-rd mags.

I bought two Maxpedition mini-rolly polys and attached them to the webbing on the side. They unfold to make perfect dump pouches or for carrying extra bulk ammo for reloads.

I ran both this rig and a Bug Out Bag (BOB) during a Shotgun Gunfighting course last month. The BOB is nice -- but it gets awfully heavy on the shoulder lugging 50 rounds of shotgun ammo around for a couple of hours. The chest rig definitely distributed the load better.

On the other hand, the shoulder harness for the chest rig lays right where I need the toe of the shotgun stock to rest. As a result, I found that the buttstock was cheating out toward my shoulder more, which got to be a little painful with slugs and buckshot. It's all a tradeoff -- but the chest rig made it very easy to carry everything. Although it would have been a bit problematic if I needed to go prone alot!

Jim

Saiga 7.62 x 39 AK -- Saiga S12 19" Shotgun -- Stag Arms AR-15 2T
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#11 Wakal

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 10:09 PM

So for your sidearm you carry 4 extra mags (set of blade tech doubles) besides one in the gun for a total of 5.

3 mags for your AR (2xpouches +1 in gun)

3 mags for Shotgun (2x pouches +1 in gun)

I have skimmed the rules and it looks like I can't use my drop leg holster but mounted on belt only?


Those are the pouches that I 'configure' from :)

The general rule is to carry twice as much ammo as you need for any given stage. If you need twenty rounds of pistol, carry 40. If you need five slugs, bring ten. Since my pistol holds 30 rounds in its all-up configuration, I usually take one extra magazine. Most rifle stages are under 40 rounds, so tuck a spare 40 in the belt.

Shotguns are harder...I usually carry the "reload" mag in the front/left, with a spare in my back pocket. Those geeky 5.11 pants have good back pockets for shotgun magazines :D




A

#12 Wakal

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 10:16 PM

Oh, and drop holsters are not allowed in USPSA unless you are shooting local matches and wear such holsters as part of your issue (military or LE) gear. In most every other match...they are no problem.

USPSA has some serious hangups on stupid things like drop holsters, cammo clothing, and 11-round shotguns.




Alex

#13 topmaul

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 10:55 PM

You will also find that rules are very different from place to place, shot one place where they thought every thing was IDPA and "ALL MAGS HOLD 10 ROUNDS" unless they hold less of course I thougth that was a bunch of well you know what. That same match I commited a terrible sin and droped a maga with a few rounds still in it and got dinged for that.

Other places You load to max capacity and have at it.

http://bc3g.ath.cx/

explore this site

Edited by topmaul, 14 November 2007 - 07:08 PM.

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#14 Paladin

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 11:18 AM

Thanks alot for the info guys. I already have a much better understanding of it. I look forward to any more info that you post. Since this is a new section I foresee a sticky when we get enough on here to be condensed down to a"How-To".

#15 SinistralRifleman

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 02:02 PM

http://www.cavalryar...tion/intro.html

#16 Paladin

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 08:42 PM

http://www.cavalryar...tion/intro.html


Thats a great post! that should be sticky'ed.

#17 Montana3gunner

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 01:56 AM

http://www.cavalryar...tion/intro.html


Thats a great post! that should be sticky'ed.



Lots of good tips here. Here's what i would add: don't be afraid to start small. Hell, I started with a Glock, an old 870 wingmaster and a mini-14. Yes, a mini. and I went to the MGM Iron Man (one of the bigger 3 gun matches) for my first match and somehow managed to win the C class in open sights. Open signts division is another way to save money, and I think it is a blast.

I use a Blackhawk Serpa holster, which has "active" retention. That means you have to push a button on the side in order to draw your pistol. Why? There's nothing quite like traveling a long ways to a match, paying your entry fee, and then in the middle of a stage, diving into prone...and your pistol falls on the ground. That's a DQ in most matches...thanks for coming and have a nice drive home. I've seen it happen. I don't mind giving up .25 seconds to push the button on the side of my holster.

I use a drop leg pouch for rifle mags (I now use an AR...outfitted with a cav arms lower I won at the MGM....sing jonny cash with me "I got it one piece at a time...") but I take it off (via quick-clip) if I don't need it for the stage.

I still use cheapo Mike's nylon bandelero shotgun shell holders, cranked down tight around my waist. I take those off too if no shotgun on that stage.

The previous post that talked about staying light was right on the money.

pistola - 4 mags + 1 in the gun.

practice your mag changes. when you're at the range, load 4-5 rounds in your mags and practice mag changes. I load random numbers sometimes and mix them up so I don't exactly know. Practice shooting on the move - in every direction and postion.

And welcome to 3 gunning!! Once you get into 3 gunning, pistol matchs are....zzzzzz

Edited by Montana3gunner, 16 November 2007 - 01:58 AM.

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#18 Ronswin

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 08:49 AM

+1 on the Blackhawk CQC Serpa holsters. After getting one off the Recon 3-gun prize table a few years back, I no longer use my Uncle Mike's or Blade Techs as it feels like you have to fight to get the pistol out compared to the Serpa holster.
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#19 SinistralRifleman

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 11:58 AM

From my intro guide:

It is important that new shooters get out and use whatever equipment it is that they already have. Donít invest more money before you even know if you like shooting competitively or not. Also once you gain experience you will be able to more intelligently spend your money on new equipment.

Too many people dump money on stuff they don't need or don't know how to use.


Re Holsters; I use Safariland Holsters. Be advised with the Serpa, that if debris gets in the mechanism you will not be able to get the gun out. I've seen it happen. Whatever holster you use make sure it is secure, because like the other said, getting DQ'ed because your gun fell out sucks.

Edited by SinistralRifleman, 16 November 2007 - 12:01 PM.


#20 Paladin

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 02:07 PM

Well it looks like it will be a Safariland, the Blackhawk site shows no listing for G35's. I saw some "competition"" holsters-whats legal? I thought they discouraged any competition only type of rigs.

#21 SinistralRifleman

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 04:13 PM

Safariland does make race gun holsters, that's not what I'm talking about. They do have their purpose for various types of competition...3 Gun usually isn't one of them due to the more physically active nature of the competition.

The duty holsters like the 6004 are good to go.

#22 GySgt New River

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Posted 11 June 2010 - 07:39 AM

A range near me is hosting a pistol/rifle CQB match this weekend. My question is what option should I go with?

#1 Run my AR sbr (5" barrel) in 9mm with Federal 115gr rounds plus silencer or without?
or...

#2 Red Jacket Mdoel ZK-MR (Saiga of course) SBR 7.62x39 (8" barrel) with Wolf black box?

Pistol I will be using is a Glock 19.

Thanks for the advice,
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#23 Racer 27

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Posted 11 June 2010 - 09:36 AM

Check their rules. The 9mm might not be big enough. Where I shoot its .223 or larger. If you can run the 9 use it with the suppressor, less recoil, less muzzle flash, and a very large cool factor. But the cool factor would be there with the red jacket rifle too.

If you have to use the 7.62 check them with a magnet.

Edited by Racer 27, 11 June 2010 - 09:56 AM.

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Look here for how: http://forum.saiga-1...showtopic=40886

#24 GySgt New River

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Posted 11 June 2010 - 11:11 AM

These are the actual options I have to play with...

#1 AR15 sbr, 10.5" barrel, with a Eotech or iron sights.
#2 AR15, 16" barrel, with a Eotech or iron sights.

#3 AK47 ZK-MR sbr, (Saiga) 7.62x39, 8" barrel, iron sights.
#4 AK47, 16" barrel, iron sights.

#5 AR15 sbr, 5" barrel, 9mm with or without suppressor.
>>NOT REALLY CONSIDERING, due to occasional malfunctions<<

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#25 Racer 27

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Posted 11 June 2010 - 11:59 AM

If you're trying to do as good as you can:

I'd choose #1. Small package, lighter recoil. Faster reloads.


If you're going to do it, to do it:

Which ever short barreled one you have enough mags, gear, and that you feel you will have the most fun with.


After re-looking at your last and then first post it looks like your feeling the Red Jacket. Run her and have a blast.
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark Professionals built the Titanic.
DO YOUR OWN CONVERSION!

Look here for how: http://forum.saiga-1...showtopic=40886

#26 GySgt New River

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 11:36 AM

Racer,

I took the "fun" advice and ran the Red Jacket ZK-MR sbr! :super: Ahhhh, the looks she got...there were a few MARSOC Operators there and they were VERY interested. Saw a few tricked out AR's and learned a few things...over all a VERY GOOD TIME.

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of 'up to and including their life.'-That is Honor

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#27 Racer 27

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 08:41 PM

Racer,

I took the "fun" advice and ran the Red Jacket ZK-MR sbr! :super: Ahhhh, the looks she got...there were a few MARSOC Operators there and they were VERY interested. Saw a few tricked out AR's and learned a few things...over all a VERY GOOD TIME.


That's what its about. :super:

And you got to learn how she runs. How were the courses? Who are the MARSOC? :ph34r:
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark Professionals built the Titanic.
DO YOUR OWN CONVERSION!

Look here for how: http://forum.saiga-1...showtopic=40886

#28 GySgt New River

GySgt New River

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 06:39 AM


Racer,

I took the "fun" advice and ran the Red Jacket ZK-MR sbr! :super: Ahhhh, the looks she got...there were a few MARSOC Operators there and they were VERY interested. Saw a few tricked out AR's and learned a few things...over all a VERY GOOD TIME.


That's what its about. :super:

And you got to learn how she runs. How were the courses? Who are the MARSOC? :ph34r:


All I can say is Will built me a DAMN FINE SBR!! :super: The barrel length is of notable mention...she shot about 3-4 inches low at 20-30 yards. I had it set for 100yds and adjusted from there...all shots were VERY repeatable.
MARSOC = Marines Special Operations Capable.

Course 1 - was another hostage situation. Firing behind a simulated wall, 4 bad guys 1 hostage, 2 rounds per...then run to another station shooting from behind a 55gal drum same 4 bad guys and 1 hostage, then run to another station and 2 bad guys and 1 hostage. Points taken away for hostage shots.
Course 2 - another run and shoot. 4 targets in line, 2 shots per, walking/running straight towards them...then 10yd run to another 4 targets (same situation) then run to the next station and take a knee and shot 4 more targets that are staggered about 1/2 way behind one another.
Course 3 - was of the "house clearing" type with hostages, 3 rounds per bad guy and points deducted for "no hits".
Course 4 - was a zig-zag, run & shoot course. Sprint 10yds, shoot 5 targets 1x, round the corner repeat this senerio 4 more times...with a almost point blank last run.
I was made fun of lightly <_< ...they said if I didnt hit the bad guy I would have burned it to death via the muzzle flash.. LOL! :lol:

A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a
blank check made payable to 'The United States of America' for an amount
of 'up to and including their life.'-That is Honor

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Gunnery Sergeant
MOAF Instructor
United States Marine Corps
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#29 GySgt New River

GySgt New River

    Semper Fi! I'm the American Patriot they warned you abou

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 06:49 AM

Two links I'd like to share:

For a compensator for 5.56/.223 cal weapons:
http://battlecomp.com/

Oregon Scientific ATC3K Waterproof Action Camera:
(Weapon mounted camera to see what you are doing)

http://www.oregonscientificstore.com/

You will need to use the search bar at the middle top of page...just enter ATC3K and hit the search button.

A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a
blank check made payable to 'The United States of America' for an amount
of 'up to and including their life.'-That is Honor

ega_kbar.gif
Gunnery Sergeant
MOAF Instructor
United States Marine Corps
2000-Present


#30 Racer 27

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 09:11 AM

Your first link doesn't go to the right place. It has an extra "http:" in it.

Was that your first match?

You got me pumped up for the 3 gun I've got on Sunday.
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark Professionals built the Titanic.
DO YOUR OWN CONVERSION!

Look here for how: http://forum.saiga-1...showtopic=40886




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