bolt hold open tab has fallen into reciever

[abe froman 0]

the bolt hold open tab has fallen into the reciever. The bolt is in the open position. I can not remove the reciever cover with the bolt open. any one know an easy fix?

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Welll if this has happened then your BHO spring must have either jumped track and come off or is somehow not installed right.

Try holding the charging handle back as far as it will go and smack the buttstock (or PG) down on a hard surface to disengage the BHO and free the bolt.

[MikeD 541]

I'll be right back with a fix. I was working on a post but it evolved into fixing it and I need to take some pics to show what is going on here and how to undo it.

[MikeD 541]

Fix at bottom! My girlfriend is going to kill me. I was supposed to be leaving within 5 minutes of me reading this problem. I thought I would take a quick glance at the forum but I saw this potentially upsetting problem for many new saiga owners and wanted to help out. And also warn and point out to thoughs that it hasn't happened too. At least some of the new shipment has the bho return spring backwards. Read below to see what the possibilities are and how to fix it if your bolt is locked back.

 

 

 

I noticed this on a new saiga-12. I haven't yet took one apart but... from looking at the bho under the cover I can see that the return spring on it has the short end out. I cant see the other end of the spring but it is probably the long end with the slight bend. If this is the case the spring has been installed backwards. If it isn't the case the spring has been changed for the worst.

 

The extra spring length serves a purpose. It will hit the bottom of the safety and prevent the bho from coming up past the rail. Because the bho is mounted on the hammer pin it is reaching back and allows some inward swing. It will push out past the bottom of the rail. This is not a problem if the spring length is there as stated above because it hits the bottom of the safety doesn't allow the bho to pass the rail (or go in past the tab).

 

Alright listen up

I just confirmed this. I bought 6 new IZ-109's from Ohio Rapid Fire, all from the last batch (upcoming drum testing ). I pick the 6th up tomorrow because someone backed out on it. Yesterday I traded my brother one for his unconverted EAA 24inch. That left me 4 to check. The spring is different. The short side is on the safety side (wrong side). Also the long end is straight and doesn't have the bend (not sure if this is a problem or not yet, need to convert one). All 4 was like it, I'll call my brother tomorrow and check the 6th when I pick it up from ORF.

 

This can be a big problem and seems like it already is! The bho will swing completely up into the receiver. If you go to far it will make the spring come off the bho (happened to one up stairs) and be a complete bith to get back in place because it is so short. But that is the least of the problems here. If you hit you bho just right it will angle it past the rails on the inside of the receiver and the manual tab will go completely inside. Chances are if this happened your spring if off as well. But if you was pulling the bolt back your bolt is now locked back and the bho is completely inside out of it's hole and off it's spring. The cover will be harder to get off with the bolt back. You cant get the recoil spring out with the bolt back. You bolt is now stuck and irremovable without some slight grinding in some places to remove the recoil spring(that you don't want to do). The bolt is right over your bho and making your problem area severely restricted to access.

 

I was just warning of this possibility in another thread if someone trimmed the manual tab down to far that it could go in and out of it's hole.

 

Alright, back to a possible fix.... This is just a hunch as I didn't lock one up to test this but.... Ok... I just locked one up to test this.

 

Here is the fix!! (to the locked up problem) Not as hard as I thought it would be, just took a minute. Remember you can click the pics to make them a lot bigger.

 

To new guys this is the bho (without the bolt locked over it)

 

 

 

First you probably want to tie the bolt back to the end of your buttstock. You don't want the bolt to get away from you with you hand around the area.. Or you can hold it like this at your own risk.

 

 

 

With your dust cover off... Look from the left side of the gun. Under the bolt you will see this more than likely. The bho against the bolt carrier.

 

 

 

Tie or hold the bolt back to take the pressure off and you will probably see this. The bho off of the bolt carrier.

 

 

 

Take a small allen wrench and push down on the bho until it is under the rail.

 

 

 

If it hasn't popped back through the tabs hole in the bottom of the receiver you might need to push it towards the wall a little after you clear the rail and down again. Once it comes back through the hole all the way you should be able to drop the bolt.

 

 

This is just a fix for the bolt being locked back. The spring needs reversed. The best way to do this would be to do a true conversion because you take all that stuff out already to do the work. It will be a little trickier to fix for those not converting. You may or may not have a problem with this depending how you hit the bho tab.

 

I really have to run now, maybe some can take over for me. I'll try and check back tomorrow to see how it's going. Maybe someone can take over for me now for spring fixes.

 

Sorry if this post is crazy, I was typing as I was going, and then I thought I defiantly needed to post pics to better show and in a big as hurry on top of all that.

 

Merry Christmas everyone!!!

[Oldone3 0]

Wow! Once again I'm impressed with the response to help request by this forum! My hats off to both Cobra and Mike. Gives me confidence in asking for help even if I'm a new guy.

Great place to be a part of.

[Azrial 1,091]

Yep!

 

That is first class service. above and beyond the call of duty, to take the time on Christmas Eve to figure out this problem and to put together a pictorial tutorial on its resolution.

 

Very commendable Cobra and Mike! Bravo!

[Bvamp 604]

to add to the above, I have taken to using pencils with rubber erasers for certain adjustments and other things that come up from time to time with saigas I own and other AKM types, as they are less apt to marr the finish. I have also added a different tool to my gun box....an ordinary popsicle stick, if you can believe that one.

 

 

good stuff, mike.

Edited December 26, 2007 by Bvamp

[jrance@iacwds.com 716]

Great info and as timely as it gets. Thanks for the A+ effort.

1911

[Eugene Onegin 6]

I'm thinking about doing away with the BHO gizzmo on my SAIGA 308 all together and just put a washer in it's place on the hammer axis pin so the hammer will stay centered on the firing pin.

Edited December 26, 2007 by Eugene Onegin

[loki0629 55]

Abe how are you making out on this? Were you able to remove the cover?

 

I'm picking up my s-12 this afternoon and will definitely remove the dust cover before I lock that bolt back. Kinda sucks that this happened with this batch of weapons. I wasn't going to convert my weapon but I'm going to have to do something if the bho spring is reversed.

 

Thanks for the quick response Mike. Much appreciated.

[abe froman 0]

wow, thanks for all the help. as of right now i still cant get the reciever cover off. is this mechanically imposiable with the bolt back or will some force used eventually work

[MikeD 541]

wow, thanks for all the help. as of right now i still cant get the reciever cover off. is this mechanically imposiable with the bolt back or will some force used eventually work

No problem on the help, I live for this kind of stuff!! You can remove the cover with the bolt back. It is a lot harder to push the button in because it is under a lot of pressure with the bolt back. Try sitting in a chair and putting the muzzle of the barrel on the floor and the butt stock against your shoulder like you are going to fire it. This will give you a very firm hold on the gun. With your hand on the stock like you are going to fire it.. use your trigger hand's thumb on the button. With your other hand, place it over the rear of the cover and put that hands thumb on top of your other thumb. Push like hell and once it is in far enough you should be able to lift the cover off with your hand that is on the cover.

 

To everyone else. I have been crazy busy with the holidays. I have family in town and haven't had much time. I am behind on emails and such. I'll try to get caught up before the new year. Sorry for the delay in responses.

[Bvamp 604]

I had to remove the cover several years ago, when a piece of debris had gotten into the gun, and jammed the bho from retracting with backward pressure on the bolt. The problem I had was that there was not space left between the bolt's rear, and the rear trunion of the reciever, so the recoil spring assembly did not physically have the room to come forward enough to allow the cover to detach.

 

what I did, was I took a piece of hard plastic, and drove the plastic onto the front edge of the dust cover to bend the rear lip of the cover enough to let the front of it lift off the reciever, and then finegled it off of there carefully so that I didnt fuck the paint or part up. I remedied the problem internally (part of it was debris, part of it was the hammer had released with the bolt back in an odd fashion, jamming the BHO in place), carefully returned the dust cover's rear mounting point to where it should be, and havent had to do it since. This was something that I had caused, from what I could figure after looking at it carefully, and I havent had it happen since.

 

you may be able to combine a slight adjustment like I did, with what mike D is explaning to you, if you cannot get enough travel in the recoil spring assembly to get the cover off without hurting it.

[abe froman 0]

thanks to all got it fixed. now i just need to get the balls up to try the conversion

[Rustynuts 3]

How to tell if the spring is reversed on a new gun without locking it up first! Will the BHO always ride up along the bolt like in the picture?

[loki0629 55]

How to tell if the spring is reversed on a new gun without locking it up first! Will the BHO always ride up along the bolt like in the picture?

When I got my s-12 the other day the first thing I did was take the cover off and take a look at the spring holding the BHO. There seems to be about a 1/2" length of spring going past the BHO and I figure that has to be the long end. It didn't seem to be physically possibly for the spring to come off when I worked the BHO repeatedly.

 

And guys can I just comment on how much it sucks that I have relatives over and a new, unfired s-12 sitting in my safe? The only thing I've managed to do is clean the packing grease off of it so far.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

How to tell if the spring is reversed on a new gun without locking it up first! Will the BHO always ride up along the bolt like in the picture?

When I got my s-12 the other day the first thing I did was take the cover off and take a look at the spring holding the BHO. There seems to be about a 1/2" length of spring going past the BHO and I figure that has to be the long end. It didn't seem to be physically possibly for the spring to come off when I worked the BHO repeatedly.

 

And guys can I just comment on how much it sucks that I have relatives over and a new, unfired s-12 sitting in my safe? The only thing I've managed to do is clean the packing grease off of it so far.

Gunny that's not so bad, you could have a tear stained picture of an S-12 sitting on your desk like some others.

[loki0629 55]

Gunny that's not so bad, you could have a tear stained picture of an S-12 sitting on your desk like some others.

That was me until about a week ago!

 

At night when no one else is looking I take it out, prop it up and sit back with a cigarette and a smile...

[MikeD 541]

thanks to all got it fixed. now i just need to get the balls up to try the conversion

Was you able to get the return spring back in position? It was a real pain for me with the short side out! Definitely do the conversion!!!

[MikeD 541]

How to tell if the spring is reversed on a new gun without locking it up first! Will the BHO always ride up along the bolt like in the picture?

Click on the pic so you can see it better. The yellow line shows where the spring is currently sticking out to. The red line shows more like what it should look like. The only other one I had before has since had a lrhbo installed so I can't show an actual pic. Maybe someone can post a pic showing how it actually looks when it is right.

 

The bho on the bolt in my pics is not typical. If the bho is activated correctly you won't see it. It will be below the slot for the rail on the bolt carriers forward surface. If you take your bolt carrier out and look at it you will probably see a little wear mark where it holds at.

[MikeD 541]

When I got my s-12 the other day the first thing I did was take the cover off and take a look at the spring holding the BHO. There seems to be about a 1/2" length of spring going past the BHO and I figure that has to be the long end. It didn't seem to be physically possibly for the spring to come off when I worked the BHO repeatedly.

 

And guys can I just comment on how much it sucks that I have relatives over and a new, unfired s-12 sitting in my safe? The only thing I've managed to do is clean the packing grease off of it so far.

Your bho is probably hitting the bottom of the rail. If you mess with it you will probably find that it is possible to make it swing out away from the wall and go up and past the rail. I am sure it will get loser with a little use and time. The extra spring length keeps the bho from going any higher than flush with the upper surface of the rail (you are probably hitting the bottom surface now). Without the length there, if the bolt carrier hits the bho with it up and slightly past the top of the rail it will grab it and pull it on up like in the pics in the fix post. When this happens the manually operated tab goes completely inside and the bho will come off it's spring.

 

+ a million on proping your saiga up and staring at it. I still do that to this day. What until you convert it, if you like looking at it now, it's like staring at a whole new gun after you convert. It is hard to make a saiga-12 get old with all the stuff you can do to them!!!

[MikeD 541]

I haven't talked to my brother yet to see if the spring is backwards on the one he has. The 6th one I was supposed to pick up from OFR I couldn't get. The guy that backed out on it reconsidered and got it (smart guy). I did find one at another local gun shop and bought it though. It is an IZ-108 and it's spring was backwards as well. I'll get some serial numbers up of all the saiga's I have from the latest shipment. 2 guys that work at the injection company doing my drums bought a total of 3 from Rapid Fire and I will see if I can coordinate with them to check their springs and serial numbers as well.

[MikeD 541]

I was looking at a converted x39 and it got me wondering. I asked Tony about the springs and this is what he said.

 

"There are two styles of BHO springs. The earlier guns had two straight legs, one longer then the other. It goes in with the long leg toward the muzzle. If you turn it around, the long leg will hit the bottom of the safety lever shaft before the BHO is engaged completely.

 

The later guns came with what appeared to be the same spring, with one long leg and one short one, but the long leg has a dog-leg bend downward to clear the safety. This spring is installed in reverse from the first, with the long leg toward the rear of the gun. Tony"

 

It appears they have went back to the old style because the dog leg bend is not on the long end. I don't know why they would do this because it is obvious they changed the design to prevent the rare occurrence we have been discussing here. I think though it will be super simple to put that bend in your spring yourself and install it long end towards the rear. I'll try to get some comparison pics up soon of the 2 different style springs for those that want to put the bend in and reverse it.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

I was wondering about that too. I've used em both and never had a problem but always put them back just like they came out.

 

I hear ya on staring at the gun too...lol. I do that all the time...sometimes it talks to me.

[Bvamp 604]

The impression that we are getting here is that the factory may possibly be undergoing a retooling finally, which would cause some discrepancies like this one above. this may also be the reason for the magwell and 5 round mags issue discussed in another thread.

 

this information in detail and for absolution is really a state and trade secret, so there is no way of really knowing if this really is the case or not, but all of the signs are pointing to it. It is also unclear if the new series of saiga is being made on molot tooling and assembled at the saiga factory, or if it is made entirely in house. This also is considered a state secret, is my understanding. I am guessing that they are made in-house, as the triggers apparantly are the same as the saiga308 triggers, but that still doesnt mean they are made entirely in house, only assembled there with saiga trigger groups.

 

I will try to get more information and will share what I can with you all, as I can confirm or deny it. Some information is informed speculation, and some information is fact. I am sharing this in this particular thread, as I think it is pertinant to the discussion at hand.

[loki0629 55]

Aww crap. I think mine is installed backwards too. I just saw the pic MD put up. I'll have to compare it with my saiga when I get home. Thanks again Mike.

[loki0629 55]

Yep, installed backwards. My shotgun has the shorter length of the spring sticking out just like in Mike's pic. I opened up my .308 for comparison and that spring definitely sticks out a lot farther.

 

Even worse, I just looked up the legal definition of assault weapon in NJ as far as shotguns go and a conversion is not possible. I can not have a semi-auto shotgun that has a detachable magazine and a pistol grip. If I had the pump version of the saiga-12 I or if it was tube fed I could do it. This is according to this site:

http://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/agguide/assltf.htm

 

So....if I just bend the extension part of the spring so that it rides down will that stave off the bho coming off until I move out of this retarded state? I figure if there is a bend there instead of the end of the spring sticking up it ought to just keep riding the rail instead of catching on it.