Saiga 12 vs 20.

[einherjrar 0]

I couldn't decide if this was a saiga-12 or saiga-20 question, since it involves both;

 

Personally, I own a Saiga-12, unconverted (FCG, grip and stock will arrive wednesday) with a 18" barrel, one of the first to be imported under RAA. I was never really attracted to the rifle cartridge AK's (because they bump and jump, and mag's are rock and lock) since I would prefer my AR-15 or M1A match for that kind of shooting. The Saiga shotgun however, I had absolutely no reason not to choose it to fill my collection. When I first saw the Saiga shotgun in the 90's, I was too young to purchase, and when I was old enough, but before I could find the one I wanted in the year before they became banned, I lost out by being too picky (wanted specific caliber, barrel length, certain choke attachment, ect), and I missed the boat.

 

 

 

I'm considering purchasing a second Saiga to convert before the end of this year, but I'm waiting (due to the shortage of some accessory parts in the 12 gauge variety).

 

I've been told by some that Saiga-20 is a smarter choice. Now, it's not my goal to spark rabid controversy or flame wars, but I wonder why it is a smarter choice? Are these people just trying to push goods, or do they know something I don't? Whenever I try to push beyond the vague assurances, waved hands, big sighs (like I don't understand), and mumbling is all I receive. I'm willing to listen, but I need more than assurances, I need opinions about why, and how they are the thing to buy.

 

My own experience has been that 12 gauge is as expensive or less in price of ammunition, as well as often being more available. The variety of ammunition types is staggering (steel, flare, bird bomb, bird, buck, slug, lockbreaker, ect.), as well as it's availability, and it is probably the caliber with the widest use of application (Law Enforcement, Military). Magazine availability is healthy (I notice there is no drum as of yet being advertised for 20 gauge). It also has slightly stronger overall ballistic characteristics. When I consider the pro's of the 12 gauge, these are what comes to mind.

 

Why is it then that 20 gauge is so popular? I'm certain that their owners must love them, but in what detail(s)? Does the recoil produced by the smaller caliber make a difference that is tremendous in benefit? Is the price gap not so great, and variety of ammunition not really that narrow (certainly for civilians in most or all of US)? I see there are 20 gauge parts and accessories still in stock in many places where 12 gauge is not, does that have a great impact? Are the receiver differences close enough to a standard rifle AK that some standard parts can be used on a Saiga-20 that will not fit on a Saiga-12 (or need less modification)? Does the 20 gauge feed smoother? Is the 20 gauge free of a deficiency (or number of deficiencies) that the 12 gauge has? Also, is it true that 20 gauge does not accept universal shell dimensions (IE; can a standard mag accept standard short shells interchangably with magnum shells, like the 12 gauge mags)? Essentially, why is it your preference?

 

 

I should mention, that I don't intend to keep both, I will either gift one to a relative, or possibly sell to a friend or at a gun show. So, considerations along the lines of having both are not attractive to me. There can be only one(!), as there is only one space for an automatic shotgun in my collection (I have decided against maintaining more firearms than I can physically carry on my person at one time). Primary uses will be hunting predators in the desert, short range rapid skeet/trap, defending myself, and magdumping (or all 4 if I have to defend myself with a magdump from clay pidgeons in the desert while hunting). Also, zombies.

 

 

So why have you chosen (12 or 20) gauge as the caliber of your Saiga?

-What is your use primarily for your Saiga (LEO, Military, Range, Hunting, ect)?

-How are you pleased with your purchase (or are you)?

-Are there properties of a different model or gauge (or caliber even) that make you regret your purchase?

-Why MUST I purchase this gauge (or caliber) if I wish to have a fighting chance to survive a zombie infestation or the meltdown of western civilization? Also; PANW[A] (P.ost A.pocalyptic N.uclear W.asteland [A.dventure])

 

I look forward to hearing your opinions, as I can go either way on my next build, 12 or 20, and I hope for some genuine feedback from owners.

 

 

Thanks in advance.

[6x6pinz 4]

well first off the specialty rounds are much more abundant in 12ga. The standard 12ga hunting ammo is cheaper and often more available. It would appear by the shear numbers of 12's being converted that there is more available accessories for them. Magazines in different sizes are available for the 12 whereas it is difficult to find them in 20. I personally prefer the 410 for home defense but that is another issue. I use my 12, 20 and 410 for hunting and have no real interest in conversions. I find the stock gun to suite my needs well, of course that is just me. I would think if you were concerned about PANWA that 12 would be the option as it will no doubt be more abundant. Again the 20 and 410 are nice as you can carry more rounds on your person without the weight and size issue, assuming you would be moving and not defending.

It sounds to me that you are really looking for a 12 to meet your needs. Even though products are not available at this time (temp out of stock) they will certainly be resupplied long before the 20's are even available. The modification work is the same on all the saiga shotguns, trigger work is the same, stock change, mods to gas tubes for sights, and the like. So it comes down to the gauge you prefer.

[Bvamp 604]

The only reason I have never combined 12 and 20 gauge in my home is only because of the problems associated with mixing the rounds. Meaning, the fact that you can drop a 20 gauge shell completely past a 12 gauge chamber, and have it lodge in the bore, and still chamber a 12 gauge hull in the 12 gauge barrel.

 

That is my ONLY reason I dont use a 20gauge, and I am in the process of changing my thoughts on it rapidly. Manufactureres now, use colors on shells to separate the gauges, sorta kinda.

 

I think I may just like my s20 quite a lot, once I spend some time with it....

[csspecs 1,987]

The 20s are easier to convert as they have a standard mag catch, all you do is spin the trigger guard around and weld to the magazine catch. With the saiga-12 you need to attach the trigger guard to the receiver in some sort of creative way.

 

Also that I know of the saiga shotgun has never been banned, I begged my dad to buy one in the late 90s and 2000 when they went for 200.00 at dunhams. Oh well, I got what I wanted later anyway

 

Me and my brother have used 12s and 20s together for years with no problem, you would almost need to be brain dead to load a 20 into a saiga-12. We have never once had a problem or come close to having a problem with it.

Edited February 26, 2008 by csspecs

[Garys4598 1,065]

I've been told by some that Saiga-20 is a smarter choice.

 

Why is it then that 20 gauge is so popular?

 

So why have you chosen (12 or 20) gauge as the caliber of your Saiga?

 

I look forward to hearing your opinions, as I can go either way on my next build, 12 or 20, and I hope for some genuine feedback from owners.

 

Thanks in advance.

Dude, I don't know who you've been talking to or what circles you run in.... but wherever you heard or picked-up that the Saiga-20 is so popular or is a smarter choice is a load of bologna and about 180 degrees OFF!

 

Mind you, I am a Saiga-20 owner (and have yet to take receipt of an S-12 that I currently have on order).

 

BOTTOM LINE UP FRONT: It is my understanding that between the three Saiga shotties (12ga, 20ga and .410 ga), the S-20 rates LAST regarding importation numbers into the United States. (This debunks whoever tried to sell you on the belief that "the 20 guage is so popular!")

I would submit to you that most importantly above all other considerations, within the Saiga shotgun family the S-12 has far and away THE MOST aftermarket available products and accessories, PERIOD.

 

If I had to do it all over again, I would have purchased an S-12 and not the S-20 (not that there is anything wrong or substandard with the S-12 whatsoever!).

 

 

This is all just my two cents. Take it with a grain of salt.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

As far as ammo variety and availability, the S-12 hands down.

As far as parts variety and availabilty, S-12 again...at least for now...

Recoil...not much difference really, depends on the ammo.

Knockdown power...well obviously the 12 has more but the 20 isn't so far behind.

Overall weight and handling...not too much difference really.

 

Issues..

The S-12 doesn't need two different size mags to feed longer and shorter shells (without modding the mag followers), the S-20 does.

Cycling...At least from my experience, the S-20 was a lot more finicky cycling different shells. It took a lot of work to get it right but now it's great!

DD vs. NOT DD...yadda yadda yadda bla bla bla...

Cost...S-20 is a better deal for the money in stock configuration.

Conversion...as said above, the 20 is easier to convert.

Optional accessories...For now at least, the S-12 has many more than the S-20 and that is part of the reason it's so much more popular. The S-20 should not be far behind in the future though. Even now the newer imports are coming with threaded barrels, which was unheard of in the states til recently. Soon you will also be bale to get the factory choke tubes and I'm sure there will be more options coming like poly chokes and FHs / brakes, etc.

 

If I could only have one it would be the S-12 right now, but I LOVE my S-20 too and would never sell it.

 

The correct answer to ANY Saiga vs. Saiga question IMO is get at least one of each kind now while you can. I did and I'm happy I made the investment.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

I've been told by some that Saiga-20 is a smarter choice.

 

Why is it then that 20 gauge is so popular?

 

So why have you chosen (12 or 20) gauge as the caliber of your Saiga?

 

I look forward to hearing your opinions, as I can go either way on my next build, 12 or 20, and I hope for some genuine feedback from owners.

 

Thanks in advance.

Dude, I don't know who you've been talking to or what circles you run in.... but wherever you heard or picked-up that the Saiga-20 is so popular or is a smarter choice is a load of bologna and about 180 degrees OFF!

 

Mind you, I am a Saiga-20 owner (and have yet to take receipt of an S-12 that I currently have on order).

 

BOTTOM LINE UP FRONT: It is my understanding that between the three Saiga shotties (12ga, 20ga and .410 ga), the S-20 rates LAST regarding importation numbers into the United States. (This debunks whoever tried to sell you on the belief that "the 20 guage is so popular!")

I would submit to you that most importantly above all other considerations, within the Saiga shotgun family the S-12 has far and away THE MOST aftermarket available products and accessories, PERIOD.

 

If I had to do it all over again, I would have purchased an S-12 and not the S-20 (not that there is anything wrong or substandard with the S-12 whatsoever!).

 

 

This is all just my two cents. Take it with a grain of salt.

Gary that is because the 410 was the FIRST Saiga built and a lot more of them came in before there ever was a 12 ga or a 20 ga Saiga.

[THE_HUNTER 2]

Dunham's Sporting Goods store used to carry the Saiga 20's all the time.Why not did they carry the 12's?I'm sure those were all bought up before they ever would have had the chance.S-12's have more resale value and survival value in a bad situation.Now for bunny hunting or whatever,20's are just fine.Make mine a 12!All my shotguns are 12 gauge except for a Springfield Armory M6 .410/.22 combo gun.

[SaigaNoobie 66]

I was going to get an S20 instead of the S12.... but ammo costs the same.... I don't get it. 2 3/4" target load is $20 for 100 in 12 and in 20. So I said to myself,

 

"Self, why buy the 20 when the 12 is just as cheap to shoot? Plus there's a lot more choices out there for buck, target, slug, etc. etc. loads than in the 20...."

 

to which i replied:

 

"Good point me! You are a smart one!"

[kellysguy 1]

I like 12, it's more avalible now and just before post apocolytic whatchamacallit. 12 would sell out quickly, and would be shot up more quickly too (kinda like hunting buffalo). 20 might still be around to be had. Chances are, if you wack a zombie that has a shotgun, they'll have 12 on them so you could use that. It's the standard zombie round.

 

I will eventually work on trying to install a conversion tube in my 12 to shoot 20 as the 20 will fit and seem to funtion in the 12 mag (a danger too if not careful).

 

So, I would like a weapon that'll fire BOTH 12 and 20 in a post apocolytic zobieland.

 

If you really want to split hairs, get a muzzleloader that uses shotgun primers as a last weapon and then you can use ANYTHING you come across in zombieland (as long as chamber pressures are kept within range). But you can only shoot one zombie at a time. (I think about this stuff wat too much)

 

The question is, do you really want to stay alive in a post apocolytic zombieland ?!?!?!?!?

 

Remeber, the lucky ones are the guys who dieded FIRST. Who would want to live through that? It's only gonna get worse.

 

Trust Jesus! Get a good Bible so you'l know when this is gonna go down. (tells you how to handle zombies too

 

(no zombies were harmed in the writing of this post)