DavePAL84 1 Posted May 5, 2008 Report Share Posted May 5, 2008 I posted about this issue in this thread: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=25691 but I think a thread in the tech section will get more responses. Here's the breakdown: Okay, I have a 19" barreled S-12 that used to be longer. When I shortened the barrel, of course I had cycling problems. So I opened up the gas ports and I could cycle reliably. It would take Nitro birdshot on gas setting 1 and regular el-cheapo on setting 2. Well, last week I go to the range and I'm having more problems (no longer cycling the nitro on setting 1). I clean her out, check the gas ports for plastic (I angled them properly and found nothing blocking them) and then I drilled a 4th gas port (mine only had three). Well I go to the range and test her out today and I still couldn't cycle the Nitro's on gas setting 1. I was really concerned because I had a 3-gun coming up. I cleaned out the gas system and make sure the piston was squeaky clean. I did not lubricate the gas system (although that made it work once before) Well I shot the 3-gun this passed Sunday and I didn't finish a single stage without at least one FTE, even when I used gas setting #2. This was with the nitro stuff. Awesome. I tried all the different mags I had too. This is definitely a new problem. I can't wrap my head around this. Even with #4 Duck shot I manage to get FTE's. I've yet to FTE a slug though. Here's some video so you can see the frequency of the jams. (Yeah yeah, that Texas star was giving everyone problems--wasn't chamfered properly, excuses excuses I know, heh) Anyway, I'm looking for any options here. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted May 5, 2008 Report Share Posted May 5, 2008 can you see if all 4 gas ports are open and not blocked? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DavePAL84 1 Posted May 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2008 can you see if all 4 gas ports are open and not blocked? Just checked with a light and a dental pick--all holes were clear. My piston wasn't thunking though when I flipped the muzzle up and down unless I retracted the BCG a little. It was clean as hell when I started and I had problems in the very first stage. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MrTuffPaws 2 Posted May 5, 2008 Report Share Posted May 5, 2008 Do you have a buffer? If so, remove it and see if it works. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DavePAL84 1 Posted May 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2008 Do you have a buffer? If so, remove it and see if it works. I used to have a buffer, but it turned my gun into a one-shot wonder, so I removed it (it'd make the bolt stick to the rear) No buffer now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted May 5, 2008 Report Share Posted May 5, 2008 Totally off topic... but dude, I LOVE your pup! American Bull? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DavePAL84 1 Posted May 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2008 Totally off topic... but dude, I LOVE your pup! American Bull? 100% AB, yes Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted May 6, 2008 Report Share Posted May 6, 2008 when you stripped the bolt head the last time, did you fully drift the pins back in? I know some guys here had problems with different models of saigas due to a protruding pin dragging in the bolt carrier ¿guide/cut? and causing enough friction to cause FTE's. It is possible as well, that if you HAVE NOT stripped the bolt completely yet, that there could be some gunked up powder fouling in the extractor chamfer in the bolt, preventing it from releasing without undue force. both might explain why slugs work. Also, Im SURE that the gas piston (the hockey puck) and the gas piston chamber are completely clean of fouling? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
erikm98 0 Posted May 6, 2008 Report Share Posted May 6, 2008 Mine started doing the same thing. I have a factory 19" and before deer season i shot about 50 2/3/4" slugs and about 15 3" slugs though it to sight in (and have some fun). A week or 2 later i went out to the range and it wouldn't cycle bird shot on #2 setting at all. Even tried some high brass stuff and it didn't work. I am going to try and smooth out the hammer on the G2 trigger group i got and see if that helps it cycle better. The variable i haven't gotten to test yet is the weather. It worked fine in summer when it was hot with any load i threw at it, worked great with slugs in november and worked for nothing in december with bird shot. I am going to be bringing it out to the range this weekend with the re profiled hammer and seeing how it works. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DavePAL84 1 Posted May 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 Any other advice? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
random sylvester 0 Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 (edited) interesting I assume different ammo amd mags will not change anything what about checkin the FCG the springs the rail one question _ when you fire nitros how far does it fling the empty shell sometimes I can find them but usually their about 15 - 20m away and when i change to 2 3/4 rounds and leave it on setting 1 it just drops out. whats yours doing when it works OK ? Edited May 7, 2008 by random sylvester Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DavePAL84 1 Posted May 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 interesting I assume different ammo amd mags will not change anything what about checkin the FCG the springs the rail one question _ when you fire nitros how far does it fling the empty shell sometimes I can find them but usually their about 15 - 20m away and when i change to 2 3/4 rounds and leave it on setting 1 it just drops out. whats yours doing when it works OK ? When it was running 100% they'd go about 20 feet or so. When it was working on-and-off again they went about 5ft. Not usual. This made me think it was a gas problem but even after drilling a 4th port this is still happening. Taking out the puck and reinserting it seems to fix the problem for a little bit, but soon they start FTE'ing again. Could I have a problem with too much gas? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cscharlie 107 Posted May 8, 2008 Report Share Posted May 8, 2008 This is VERY interesting. I have one that seems to have those symptoms. I've not had the time to get it figured out yet. Is there any chance you installed the wrong dust cover(like one for a rifle) on the shotgun by mistake? I've seen that happen before. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted May 8, 2008 Report Share Posted May 8, 2008 how much slop do you have in the bolt carrier assembly piston? If you shoot high dram loads on setting 2 too much, or fire 90 zillion rounds down your gun on correct settings, the piston gets a LOT of slop to it, and in my gun's case, caused some FTE on lighter loads. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ML Roak 0 Posted May 8, 2008 Report Share Posted May 8, 2008 I've seen lead build-up on the gas piston and gas block chamber on a 20ga that fired a LOT of slugs, it kept the piston from moving freely, could be something to check. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
random sylvester 0 Posted May 8, 2008 Report Share Posted May 8, 2008 another random idea empty chamber rock action back 3 times check if gun is empty blah blah remove top cover , pull trigger keep finger on to simulate firing and then slowly rock action back and chech action and trigger group , check for (trigger slap?) or anything else sticking etc question - how much use has the gun had, new old ? whats the rear of the trunion like does the spring insert? fit into rear trunion good you may need to file it out a bit keep us posted Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DavePAL84 1 Posted May 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2008 another random idea empty chamber rock action back 3 times check if gun is empty blah blah remove top cover , pull trigger keep finger on to simulate firing and then slowly rock action back and chech action and trigger group , check for (trigger slap?) or anything else sticking etc question - how much use has the gun had, new old ? whats the rear of the trunion like does the spring insert? fit into rear trunion good you may need to file it out a bit keep us posted Tried this. Seems like the BCG may be hanging up on the hammer if I release it completely before the entire BCG completes it's cycle. Right now, if I'm right, it should cycle everytime if I hold down the trigger until the bolt is completely forward after each shot. Time to take it to the range and test my theory. If this is true I might have to re-contour the bolt. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FSJeeper 0 Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 I am trying to learn to trust my Sagia 12's to put them into main SHTF shoptgun use. Not there yet. I am not convinced that a Benelli or pump is not better cause you can load on the move and stay at fell capacity. If they ever make a 20 round drum you can load on the side reliably, I am so there. With 2 stock Saga 12's, the only jamming I had was with extrememely coroded shells. I mean lots of rust. And they still fed fairly good, but would jam on ocassion. With any other new ammo, they have absolutely been 100% reliable. It must be your gas system but I would not think they would be that sensitive. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DavePAL84 1 Posted May 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 Okay, just got back from the range. Couldn't make it through a magazine without jamming--not even the factory magazines. System was completely cleaned out. It was jamming with nitro's on setting 1, cheap-o stuff on setting 2, nitro stuff on setting 2. Damnit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 silly question - is your ejector in 100% condition? Im sure you already looked at that. also, how do your receiver rails look? any notching on them? you never said if your bolt carrier piston has slop in it, also? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paladin 37 Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 Dave, maybe we should compare our guns side by side, extractor, BCG, rails, etc. to see if there is any unusual wear marks or outright damage. Give me a buzz. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DavePAL84 1 Posted May 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2008 Dave, maybe we should compare our guns side by side, extractor, BCG, rails, etc. to see if there is any unusual wear marks or outright damage. Give me a buzz. Definitely. I'll give you a call. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted May 11, 2008 Report Share Posted May 11, 2008 Tony rumore posted something a month ago or so, in response to inquiries in a thread, cant remember the name of it, explaining how to slick up all the action's components and contact surfaces. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paladin 37 Posted May 11, 2008 Report Share Posted May 11, 2008 I read that post have done all that and buffed and polished my FCG. My gun runs 100% and has a very smooth action. It was jamming constantly on him. It's got to be some mechanical problem, bent rails, or ??? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted May 11, 2008 Report Share Posted May 11, 2008 thats why I asked about the reciever rails being notched. A lot of guys will say that firing 2 3/4" slugs on setting 2 is ok, but really, its not. 3" shells are really to hold more payload in them. the slugs in the 3" shells will be heavier usually, and thus create higher chamber pressures. Im trying to help flowchart the problem here, but Im not getting much response! I dont know if he is trying what I am suggesting, or what. It seems like it would possible if the ejector was broke as well? Has the bolt head been completely stripped and cleaned carefully, to see if any lead shavings got into the extractor or spring or what? the lead buildup in the gas tube isnt a bad idea, either. didnt hear back on piston slop, either? Really, I would like to know what the problem actually was, when it is finally figured out, which is why Im tossing out a bunch of completely different ideas. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cscharlie 107 Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted May 23, 2008 Report Share Posted May 23, 2008 Can you Mic the "hockey puck" for us? I really want to know what this problem really is, was. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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