ok wildcatters and other nuts in this place..i needs some repore on th

[broadkil 0]

so here we are kiddys with me coming up with dead ideas and looking for a way to make them relevant again.

this time around it comes in the form of an idea im sure others have had

namely the well loved 7.62x39 case.

up front, im a huge 10mm/.41 mag kind fo guy so i wanted to see what could be done to something like an SKS or an AK for that matter.

so while i was looking at the 7.62 i figured you could just cut it off at the case shoulder and open it up that way, remove the body taper to make it parallel in lay out (ok ok ok i know ya cant make the case PERFECTLY straight but you get the idea)

which i seemed like id have about 1.25 to 1.29 in case length to work with.

then my brain got to firing again and i remember something i have looked over in cartridges of the world No.11.

right im sure ya already know what im talking about...the old POS .401 winchester WSL.

now true the case on the .401 is longer but its not as wide as what i got in mind

the .401 is .457 at rim and .429 at base

the 7.62 is .445 at rim and .443 at base

both of these measurements were from cartridges of the world No.11 as stated

but then i got to thinking "hey how about if you could shove that into a AR or AK? and up the pressure![\i]"

heres the rub though, i don't know what the PSI on the old .401 is!

i imagine a .40 - .41 cal, 220 grn SJHP moving about 2000 FPS

that will generate according to my handy dandy little ballistics program.

1954 FPE

sure its not a .50 Beowulf or the fine fine .458 SOCOM

but mag capacity should be like what 22-25 rounds in a standard ar-15 30 round mag?

the way i figure it, recoil in the standard m-16a2 with a fully loaded 30 rnd mag should be about 9.8 lbs (correct me on that one)

and with about (i approximate) 30 grains of powder, comes to about 10.86 lbs force with 8.43 recoil velocity.

ok so what ya think?

Edited August 15, 2008 by broadkil

[TonyRumore 1,332]

My first thought is......build the magazine first. You can either single stack rounds, or double stack them, but you can't stack-and-a-half them which is what you would be doing with 40cal stuff in a .223 mag. The walls of the magazine will get side-loaded, bulge, and bind up the rounds.

 

FWIW, I have built both AR's and AK's in .338x39 which is the 7.62x39 necked up to .338. I still have the reamer for that one.

 

On another note, I am just finishing up the .375/444 Marlin Saiga.

 

MFG - TROMIX Broken Arrow, OK

Model - PILEDRIVER

S/N PD-001

Cal. .375/444 Marlin

[broadkil 0]

My first thought is......build the magazine first. You can either single stack rounds, or double stack them, but you can't stack-and-a-half them which is what you would be doing with 40cal stuff in a .223 mag. The walls of the magazine will get side-loaded, bulge, and bind up the rounds.

 

ok i gotta say i wasn't expecting you to reply let alone to be the first one to do so.

to be totally honest i didn't think this thread would get any reply at all!

so to say the least, i am deeply honored that you ACTUALLY BOTHERED TO READ MY INSANE DRIBBLE!!?

 

now down to business

i can see what ya mean. it should be a double stack. i mean its only gonna be as wide as the 6.5 Grendel

but then again the 6.5 Grendel is a necked and pointed round

with my idea i want to use pistol bullets. (ie straight and blunt)

 

hmmm.....

what if i used Colt 7.62x39 mags? (ok expensive and kinda hard to find at times, but still...)

could i get this to fit an AK mag with out binding?

 

 

or how far can one stretch out the neck of a 7.62x39mm case without splitting it or getting into head space problems?

Could M1 .30 carbine mags work?

probably have to single stack them in this Mag and Rifle, but given the pressures this might work in a M1 carbine..

i guess it all comes down to OAL of the damn thing.

lets see

the .30 carbine is 1.29 in length and OAL is 1.65

my idea is 1.29 in length as well, and an OAL with a .40/10mm auto 180 grain JHP = 1.575

 

=============

 

 

guess this is a good time to post case spec ideas

 

rim DIA: .447

 

base DIA: .443

 

neck DIA: .425 (or for .41 Mag pills, .436 )****

 

case length: 1.29 (for M1 carbine),

1.50 (for ar-15/ak-47 platform, provided one dose not split the neck of the 7.62x39mm case when resizing the neck... use 6.5 carcano brass?)

 

OAL of loaded cartridge: 1.60 (M1 carbine platform), or 1.90 (for ar-15/ak-47 platform)

 

 

=============

 

****is there enough there to make a shoulder, say one with 35 to 40 degree angle?

(aka, Ackley the damn thing)

 

AND ANYONE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PLEASE GET ME A PRESSURE SPEC FOR THE .401 WSL!!!!!

or hell, what was the operating pressure for the Winchester 1910 Self Loading Rifle

 

 

one thing Tony...

what were the ballistics for the .338x39?

i have gone to your sight since about 2004 and my jaw just dropped when i had first seen it (my jaw dropped not from amazement but rather shock that i didn't think of it)

i never could find reliable load data or ballistic data for that mater anywhere.

 

and thank you for your advice Sir

[broadkil 0]

eh go figure....over 90 views and no one else responding.

i guessed that this would be a lead zeppelin.

[Paladin 37]

Well , if it makes you feel any better, I converted a x39 to 6.5mm Grendel. So it's not just Tony, you and me that think up this crazy shit.

[BobAsh 582]

It's not that there's no interest in your topic, but not many people can really respond in a meaningful way.

[TonyRumore 1,332]

There is no way to know for sure if your combination of cartridge and magazine is going to work until you try it.

 

However, Marty Ter Weem at Teppo Jutsu (.458 SOCOM guy) attempted to run 10mm Magnum ammo out of a double stack 6.8SPC magazine with a Tromix 50AE spacer block installed. It all looked good and the round fit nicely, but he was unable to get them to feed into the chamber with any consistency. He sent the whole affair to me and I spent several hours dicking around with it, and I couldn't get it to work either.

 

So.......you might end up with trouble trying to feed straight walled cases into the AR-15 barrel from a double stack magazine.

 

I am not sure what the ballistics were on the 338x39. I only test fired it into the bullet trap and shipped it to the customer.

 

Tony

[broadkil 0]

well im back and sadly no.... after all these months and making about 100 diffrent dummy rounds i have decided that the ar-15 platform is a bust (and sorry no pics, just had a baby back in november and have been too bussy to get them for ya)

BUT the single stack mags for the Saiga works GREAT!

and the other version of the round i got it to work in only 1 m1 carbine mag (and a 15 rnder at that)

i there might be life left in this idea yet...im gonna borrow a buddys 75 rnd AK drum to see if it might function in that...

 

 

next stop barrels...

[Reverendfranz 160]

Well , if it makes you feel any better, I converted a x39 to 6.5mm Grendel. So it's not just Tony, you and me that think up this crazy shit.

 

DO you have any details on that work? id be interested

[MD_Willington 11]

always though 10x39 would be a neat sub gun...

 

the russians already have a 9x39 ak and a 9x19 ak based on the krink.

[madmax4x4 68]

I wish we had more stuff to run Tokarev 7.62X25 in. I love that round but would like to have it in some other guns. And it is still cheap

[Gunfixr 76]

I wish we had more stuff to run Tokarev 7.62X25 in. I love that round but would like to have it in some other guns. And it is still cheap

 

I been thinking about an AR upper in that. With a block, or a spacer mounted onto the mags (CZ26 mags), they'd work in the magwell.

 

Since I built the Cobray M11 in that, I got a ton of the ammo.

[usamark 1]

There's a couple guys running these on Arfcom. Teppo Jutsu is shipping mag blocks now to run PPS43 mags in the AR platform. The uppers are gas operated units. I got one w/ a SS barrel and chromed barrel & bolt.

 

With ammo prices, this is the way to go if you want to blow off ammo like the old days.

[Gunfixr 76]

There's a couple guys running these on Arfcom. Teppo Jutsu is shipping mag blocks now to run PPS43 mags in the AR platform. The uppers are gas operated units. I got one w/ a SS barrel and chromed barrel & bolt.

 

With ammo prices, this is the way to go if you want to blow off ammo like the old days.

 

Where'd you get it, if you don't mind my asking? Also, about how much was it?

 

I think I'd rather use CZ 26 mags, though, as I already have a bunch of them. Probably not difficult to change. The bolt and barrel are the important parts, mainly the barrel.

[usamark 1]

It was like $140 or something. A buddy ordered it a while ago and I got in with him. It was expensive. Go here:

www.heavymetalco.com

He's the guy that's making the adapters.

 

I turned the bolt from a 556 bolt & chromed it and the carrier for the corrosive ammo. The barrel is stainless with an ultra short gas tube.

[Gunfixr 76]

Thanks, I'll check that out.

[broadkil 0]

always though 10x39 would be a neat sub gun...

 

the russians already have a 9x39 ak and a 9x19 ak based on the krink.

 

 

thats why i haven't given up (well not totally) the 9x39 is a nice round but they are gonna be 2 very , very VERY diffrent animals.

im looking at this round as a brush/door breaching/a type of PDW

the 9x39 is meant for subsonic/AP work to which my idea might work as well but its not the intended goal.

if you go to "the weapons builders forum there is an AK in .40 S&W and a 7.62x25 out there that work. this is what gives me hope that it will still work.

the round im still working on ballistics, but i still need some help on starting load data for the .401 Winchester and what its operating pressure was.

the m1 carbine is pretty much stalled cause of the lack of platform (i don't have the cash to get one converted yet).

i need some help guys..anyone else wanna pick up where im leaving off?